Conlangery #114: Thai (natlang)

Conlangery #114: Thai (natlang)

Published: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 03:15:47 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 medical um <unk> <unk> <unk> about manmade english are nice and the men sin who creates them [noise] welcome <unk> languages people i'm <unk> [noise] with me down the road when will you man that's [noise] an overt in california we have ah britain what [noise] out everybody you are in california right [noise] i am currently in california yes and i <unk> yeah okay [noise] um [noise] you guys know britain he's the guy who's doing the the uh kinda laying documentary we we talk to him about that a couple of episodes ago but that is not on the agenda for today i guess we we we can just say like progress things are being done with that right written things are being done with that one great thing everybody in the public out there to court the project and get curse coming saying but it hasn't started yet but keep your eyes on a calling in film dot com yeah but today the reason we have um britain on is uh so we are going to be talking about hey natural language and that language is hi um and ah britain uh said he'd he'd uh like to come on is it yes because he can speak a little bit of thai more then either george right yeah yeah so at the very least you can help us pronounced examples correctly or uh perhaps [laughter] [laughter] oh <unk> oh yeah i <unk> like a little mhm [noise] so i i just have to throw in because since the internet when i was a kid in minnesota we inherited the cat and a friend of mine mommy and its name was <unk> no way oh uh-huh yeah and they told us that it was vietnam <unk> but apparently it's totally <unk> yeah it's oh yeah no i mean a little bit yeah [laughter] yeah anyway so sorry cats and the internet that's how it runs [noise] oh right so getting started uh it's um thai is a pie language ah spoken in southeast asia official official language uh thailand but um there's uh uh <unk> and they're always is in uh other other places mutually <unk> ah comprehensible would low which i hadn't realized before we started this show mhm actually i <unk> especially the east on dialect the the dialect spoken around bangkok would not be <unk> but but there there there is a lot of overlap probably more than <unk> certainly spanish and italian for example mhm mm that's interesting yeah i've heard that there are there is sort of a dialect continuum in that area with high and allow and uh is there another language part of that but uh various dialect names yeah they're all the credit cards like russia mhm but um so just getting started uh we're basing a lot of this on n._b._c. and old grammar from the sixties like an army grammar sure and uh not is not an army in particular it's one of the that's how i the foreign service institute <unk> mhm i will say it's a little bit ah difficult to read so we'll we'll be linking two other sources about time but um [noise] there is a lot of useful stuff about it the ah britain was complaining about the romans fishing in that in that grammar hello complaining about the five [laughter] completely <unk> i buy it like i can retire and i you know a whole lot easier than i can read about that it's the weirdest <unk> i've ever seen in my life but anyway yeah and um i will say some of the um the description of the phonology is kind of weird like some of the terms that they use our also not the terms i would use like when are you the way that they're using lettuce and foreigners is not the way i'd do it and also they go into what i would think he is way too much phonetic detail they're obsessed with property huge theft fields that paid for our devoted to property yes and they talk about it in in a very weird way i don't know like this is from the sixties maybe this is what they did at that time but they talk about <unk> phonemes and like <unk> intonation is phonemes and it's like we don't do that anymore [laughter] [laughter] so so hey wallpaper nice people don't do that [laughter] so i just just just sort of saying you know <unk> do sort of uh take some things in that with a grain of salt and and um but we all try to explain some things here looking at uh <unk> 'cause i can understand what would you p._t. writes about it much better um further phonology part at least is so you have a three way distinction with um playing stops aspirin it stops and ah truly voice stops and ah britain i don't know how accurate <unk> you'll be able to do it but can you give us like three words to illustrate that [noise] um so so um i <unk> and <unk> is right so the first one doesn't get the voice saying and the average person oh that sounds very much like a normal <unk> so um for example <unk> is it oh clearly uh <unk> you sound very much like what we were having a <unk> yeah i just wanted wanted people to hear that and you know ah recognize um sort of yeah it's when you get a three way distinction english speakers are gonna have trouble with the the plane and then the voice uh because of the way that ah english works there and i'm not going to see anything more about that in this episode but uh [laughter] uh it's a little bit interesting it seems like this this disagrees with the grammar that we have like <unk> disagreeing with the grammar that we have in that so you have put ah so <unk> you have have both the well across the <unk> the system you have have the aspirin unnaturally created and then the voice saying um is missing the dealer and the powerful africa ah so that's not that's that's not in any way unusual i was just pointing out that's like what the system that you're you're looking at um and in terms of uh in terms of vowels that's for things kept getting really interesting yeah so the voucher off the hook [laughter] so you have let's see one two three four five six seven eight you have nine vowels is it nine yeah yeah it's a metric seven bowl system with two on your own or to um [noise] i'm rounded back though right so so you have ah yeah he eh eh ah oh ooh ooh and then you have the uh the <unk> <unk> and uh and they are all they all have long variance <unk> which um okay that whole well i don't <unk> i think <unk> <unk> and maybe collapsed i'm not sure i'm not i don't know if they're <unk> well i don't know i'm just looking at um the <unk> <unk> given me so if you you've there's probably <unk> lots of dialects of factors yet oh they do know i see what they're doing they do this is a little weird too i would <unk> yeah but okay fine yeah i agree [laughter] yeah just the <unk> the kind of the ah one of ours is a little bit closer to uh-huh than <unk> in my opinion but anyway that's well i don't know <unk> get confusing sometimes [laughter] george right there that's the history of foreign language they're eating in a nutshell [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] no no <unk> this this is a real thing like like the way we perceive vowels is totally different from the way we perceive consummate <unk> but that's that's a different thing but i'm moving on so it <unk> pie is a tonal language it is a fool on contour tone language uh similar too i don't know chinese which we've covered before or yeah have you any <unk> any others where you have each syllable is at least each stress syllable is assigned a <unk> uh and there are five uh of these um so this is one thing is like um like a lot of uh chinese language is uh not mandarin because <unk> doesn't have stopped <unk> like ah kidneys has it too but um [noise] for time you have sort of different realizations of tones for uh weather depending on whether the uh word ends in a stop or not so the and uh uh uh syllable that ends with uh stop stop code uh he's calling checked syllable that includes um syllables they're opening short by <unk> mhm mhm yeah um in theory they have a fun little stop <unk> okay so we have um looking at the <unk> the wishy p._d._f. for unchecked syllables you've uh midtown low tone falling tone hi tone and rising tone and um uh written maybe you can you can try to uh give us the examples for these ah in ah in would keep you they have example with examples was <unk> yeah [noise] <unk> so we do the car so [noise] their car [noise] um i'm kind of <unk> working at the time half working out um the next one is low [noise] and then um the next one is falling so that that oh hi to way del ray huh and that's a long okay um [noise] then there yeah with that it's right now so ah basically high with tom are <unk> crazy too so [laughter] the next one is ah which is high and then the final one is rising to do to go more quickly um ah hi huh i did the best of my ability yeah uh it would it would be nice if we had a a native speaker of time yesterday word sorry [laughter] and that's uh that's that's unfortunate 'cause um the thing is like i i can recognize everything that you're you're doing britain but um i really maybe i will find some clips of peoples speaking tie 'cause the thing that i know about that i noticed when i hear thai is that when i hear hear native speakers speak it they actually have like a pretty broad pitch range and and it's it's it sounds i hate to use this term but it sounds kind of like <unk> well especially in a hormone announced that like if you love 'em too if you've flown to thailand on thai airlines and they're about to arrive they print out bangkok grown i mean [laughter] and it's like the the last syllable love <unk> pay per bangkok is really really drawn out and it's really really you know dramatic and and the more formal the speech get the more emphasis there is in doing tone properly um and their word like nine for example the number nine where it because there are lots of other similar word <unk> they're they usually pronounce cow very very intensely you know and clearly because it's a number you don't want to continue that was something else so [noise] there are cases like that when they are more careful about her and then last careful about ah you know just in everyday kind of chatter it's not it's it's not is notice a lot of the times yeah i just i just noticed that because it's different from what i'm used to was mandarin and mandarin <unk> you know mandarin is these tonal but it doesn't <unk> people don't speak with the kind of range of pitch and the the kind of um as sort of <unk> strongly the tones in fact i remember when i was studying in china there was one tie girl that i met who was also there to study chinese and heard chinese she drew out like all of the chinese tones sort of like i imagine must be like similar to like fairly formal time she'd say like uh me how <unk> i can't even i can't even i can't even imitated <unk> she was she was uh um like she would say my name for chinese wood is uh chargers she'd say <unk> [laughter] yeah <unk> there's a strong tendency for that <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> they show i guess i mean i mhm so i know type people who live here locally in the san francisco bay area and the most people have heard of the wine country and so now my <unk> in english it's pronounced so now i'm out with a little bit of accent on the no the second <unk> but anti it it goes to start on my so they they they completely changed the when they talk about they're going to buy for no mine they they don't they don't say sonoma even though they could with short <unk> they they change it to to them better and and it ends up being not <unk> but so no my <unk> it's completely different so that that it is more dramatic often especially with non tight word <unk> i also get the impression that the right idea ties spoken thai thai men anti women can be pretty radically different [noise] oh yeah some context mhm it's <unk> it <unk> it is radically different yeah mm [noise] it it is i mean the pronouns are different than there are lots of foreign choices that are different uh <unk> we we can get into that in in uh a little bit um uh first so those are the five um tones in <unk> the mid low falling high and rising and then uh in <unk> these are um as william said um short vow the <unk> uh <unk> or syllables that and with a stock consummate quota [noise] um [noise] you get for some reason here it's breaking out the low tone in too short and long is there any like actual difference between that well and they used to work for the first two words that are given away can pay their for example yeah other than the <unk> the links isabel yeah oh oh my and my i don't know if i'd there yeah i don't know but it does have so you have <unk> you can have low tones for short or long and then uh short or long vowels and then uh short vows can also have the high tone yeah and then long valves can have the falling tone right on even in <unk> so the as often happens the the the <unk> have a little bit more restriction in what tones can uh kurds are out of it yes like sense mhm <unk> <unk> would you like to say if you were about the dish ellie system or the dog and see i didn't want to focus on it usually <unk> relevant feature <unk> talking about yeah the interesting thing to me about i i always understood that that spelling 'kay um to thailand cambodia so it it's definitely a an <unk> either system but one that was borrowed at a time when the tie language had some court system [noise] so what happened over the century is that they've had to use a bunch of different continent um like an h. amount of <unk> and they use different different tone marks that used to be consistent for the tones i'm used to be systematic grown now more complicated 'cause that's my understanding that [noise] the the language has gone from having three towns two to five so [noise] so that the spelling is incredibly convoluted from our <unk> our kind of simple selling point of view and it's further complicated by the fact that a lot of the language is influenced by the bali cannon uh from <unk> from <unk> um text so there are a lot <unk> percent skirt words in anti <unk> lots and lots of concept clusters that they can't pronounce and other syllable idol you know things in code or that they can't pronounce [noise] so they're very faithful to to the importance of the historical aspects of attacks so they spell words from sanskrit as closely as possible if they can be spell to how they were spelled originally in san <unk> and then they just pronounce them however the modern language can deal with [laughter] various problem they also have the equivalent of a <unk> a little mark that er we write that way right the letter because it is <unk> and the original language that we borrowed from but we cannot possibly pronounced so don't even try so for example in the war the name mark if we're talking about um if we're talking about <unk> um they mark are in mark they spell it wrong hey are don't try to pronounce it okay or gee depending on um how you think about her name's or the values of the letters so they they they're telling people who who come across things things that they can't possibly personnel that you should ignore the car because there's a way that we can make this town [laughter] because of where it came from so it's a silent leonard marker so i wrote letters marker right so in english we might for example um <unk> that are silent on the end of words with a similar kind of mark if we were if we're going to be thorough about it so um they're just locker lots of really funky things if you do look at the [noise] the um [noise] phonology charred on ah the confidence in particular [noise] so if we look at the closest and we look at what's given t. h. t. m. l. closer to uh you'll see that they're one two three or four five six different teams [noise] um and for k. they're also lots and lots of <unk> and <unk> there's a funny story about one of the cave that got delete it out of the language when the typewriter came along because there were enough cheese on it to justify keeping that k. k. if a person <unk> so the k. that was used to write the work for a person they just got rid of it and started writing it with a more common okay so um they're all kinds of fucking things about the <unk> and that that in in of itself in thai is a real job [laughter] [laughter] that's quite ah interesting so yeah you have you have a bunch of the loop peas and there's like a whole bunch more for the final tea which is interesting to me so but thai thai writing system is uh justin alphabet um it's essentially well it's great it's usually refer to as an alphabet but i would think of it as an alligator i mean if the marking the marketing for the uh <unk> and x. files for example um calm before the conquer they've they modified so to write the word but that you write to act out first and then you write that dean but it's pronounced die so it it really needs to <unk> i think i'm alphabet <unk> that makes sense okay because the order does that the the law and the the ass town and the ice now i <unk> i [noise] those things are are written before the concert to the left of the continent so it really <unk> it's not like an alphabet it's more like an opera data <unk> okay that's that's that's a very interesting thing and ah people to see this <unk> uh note that this is uh probably one of uh david peterson's big <unk> 'cause he really likes snoopy character loopy yeah but you know and had riding most of the loop school way so they really they're just a part of the former history of everything they don't they're not required or ledge ability is this is this a a a a language that was written on palm leaves at one point or probably yeah that's <unk> yeah i mean it was <unk> yeah it was but i mean it's been i don't know that <unk> <unk> necessarily car waves but but the but the <unk> the circle east stuff has <unk> still <unk> cambodian and other stuff one damn sure but but the ties have really in in proper kind of form of what we would call sarah if you think of it in terms of font mm well think of is sarah fought like times <unk> would need to have all the proper circles on her oh okay but if they wrote in the equivalent of help addict huh or ariel ah or <unk> future or their equivalent some of those kinds of things then they <unk> they would not named the circles for ledge ability at all in fact most people handwriting is largely completely missing the circles because when you're trying to write something quickly it's just too much ornamentation you don't need it [laughter] okay well that's that's interesting um [noise] uh i think we can move on then too ah things that i'm sure williams <unk> talking about uh all the layers of <unk> in different kinds of ah morphology i want to say as i was looking at times and we'll be getting into all of the stuff that makes it this way you um i think it's really a good thing to look at hi if the if you want to um if you want to make a con torturing language and you are mainly familiar with chinese like i am because it's still fairly i think thai is still somewhat unlike analytic but it's not like as strongly like each every morphine has to be one syllable and all this stuff like chinese is it has a lot of features that if i didn't see them in in time i wouldn't necessarily think of them in a in a con torturing language like it has <unk> and it has um kinds of reduced location that i wouldn't have thought of thinking of the other uh <unk> the one other uh contours <unk> turn language i'm strongly familiar with it and uh um you know single um you know less than a syllable morphine but uh let's get into all of that stuff with the the the morphology and a little bit about <unk> we go through so sure mhm as hurting his mentioned um among other things that have gone into tiger vocabulary are we supposed to have <unk> fundamental tai chi historical stack [noise] news middle chinese and then various and southern chinese dialects send in vocabulary <unk> locked or cambodian <unk> either under their politically room but certainly was a major and cultural centers for a long time when i went to a point in time and sanskrit and <unk> and of course english [noise] and there are a few funny things that i read it so i'm also using in addition to the other side of course i do have a copy of tying essential came here by david mine mm [noise] so i got a few things in that boat and a few sanskrit numbers works their way into the standard language but they're used for things like <unk> academic degrees military ranks and hilarious leads my opinion they're used in the names of the <unk> [laughter] [laughter] okay so they're but they're only in these restricted things but yeah so that they have their normal <unk> run through the appropriate logical filters should they did they borrowed the chinese number system or not i didn't see any reference to that okay <unk> i maybe i should have ah looked into the ah that's really interesting i never thought about that but yeah the <unk> like my toe the second tone it's like total like two and <unk> yes yes because they caught us down from into european and might today is three just like three and <unk> [laughter] <unk> that's really <unk> and i'd never even make that connection before but they asked us sledding [laughter] and it has a bunch of things in common with and their languages in the area not too much and the way it ethics oh there's some there's remnants of a <unk> um number types of fires which are you <unk> numbers but we've only fires demonstrative and interesting there's sometimes use with education um syria verbs galore mhm and and it had this thing that i haven't seen in other languages in the region where you have your various <unk> once they can um and then a bunch of these languages region <unk> they <unk> sport to be able <unk> rather than <unk> mhm yeah it's really yeah go ahead [laughter] no so that's uh <unk> the ability one die it usually comes way at the end of the senate like you say everything everything everything everything can [laughter] it comes at the end they helping burke cubs at the end you know it's like it's really it's kind of paradoxical to me anyway but it but it's very distinct took another language that that it it costs there and if it does that call there it can mean other things they can it can indicate up certain type of past right and and the <unk> goes along with it so i had a blah blah blah blah and knock him in my die yeah correct that's right <unk> uh they cannot come and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah like cannot [laughter] yeah it it it's kind of fun actually <unk> and and that sort of thing seems to be a feature tie in general in that you have a class of behaviors like <unk> or <unk> or whatever and lots of good will come before but some of them will come after the thing and we even have a few things that are effectively strict convictions where you must have on something before and after the arabs [noise] that seems to happen more often in the really formal language and and that's another thing that's characteristic languages you ditched region is there are many many registers uh-huh uh-huh yeah are you talking to your parents your friends your boss [noise] are you taking your coworkers what we're christians are are you talking to your coworkers you know your uh boozing and argue and got saved you into should have been talking to the king yeah you really don't want to be talking to them [laughter] really really don't want to be talking thing has gone horribly wrong and go to class basically to learn how to talk with a king because that that nobody knows that language so ornate <unk> unusual a typical so right so you have basically lots of lots of politeness level <unk> many politeness of expressed how mostly with pronouns or getting any <unk> uh memory of vocabulary choices yeah the cat really choices and then and then that's on spinal markers so rude or different for male or female that's yeah that's the <unk> the one thing i knew about time before we started like looking into that this for this <unk> i knew is <unk> which i probably said very badly no no no you wouldn't <unk> that's totally great door right and i remember i remember the girl who taught me that taught me that i i i should see <unk> and then girls will uh girls will say something i'd be <unk> [laughter] <unk> <unk> yeah okay yeah yeah right so um yeah <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah oh yeah so you're going to pick a different simple things like leap depending on who you're talking about will be a different kind of every choice ah okay [noise] and so it's [noise] throughout the lecture con <unk> germ choice the they will drink pronouns to choose from and these close <unk> particles which do things that are interesting complicated um all of them come together <unk> as quite simple sentence will be or what is a single sentiment english will be expressed in many different ways in tai <unk> yeah um [noise] what was going to say about those [laughter] [noise] this one doesn't have it but i ran across the tie grammar <unk> even made the effort to tell me which <unk> um transvestites use yeah mhm yeah that that that really interesting too because you you can tell [noise] um people sexual identity very very quickly <unk> by the by the programs that they use regardless of what they're actually wearing um it's it's super handy actually [laughter] um because people who feel transgender or whatever they you know they can immediately show everybody and tell everybody how what their orientation is just by saying i want to buy a piece of chocolate you know like because it's encoded in the eyes of the pro now how they feel about themselves so <unk> right i mean many beginner <unk> wants to they'd get hung up on them or gender as it's used in in the european languages and try to <unk> you know complete bad with gender as <unk> <unk> <unk> um and then they come up with horribly complicated languages <unk> fifteen kinds of non gender [noise] it really what they wanted to do to express sort of identity gender go to tie they've got it down [laughter] that the system you want to copy [laughter] yeah the other thing about it is that it can pronouns can change also depending on formality or other <unk> so you might you know <unk> in in certain dialects um a man could even refer to him might even call themselves <unk> certainly context but not definitely not in another context you know they would always be home in a regular contacts so there there are other things like that that er [noise] you know not in a car like but in the wild can get quite interesting and you you have to think quite deeply about social situations and other triggers that would change the cause a change and and a crime now right so into this mice grammar that i'm reading is the only <unk> i've ever read that talks about how you talk or coworkers uh-huh um versus how you would speak to them in an office so that that was very interesting [noise] so one thing we mentioned cast things to me might just we'll talk about it is their language has a huge number of claws plenty <unk> particles mhm yeah which do a lot of different kinds of things mhm and some identify that you're just making a statement and your son's a question and there are there a of question possibilities you can have a simple question like well can you go to the store and you can you can implied that you were asking for confirmation you inviting agreement you know he went to the store and right and and a bunch of others and let me when my list of these calls <unk> pretty cool and everything i've run across written there's lots of warnings that maybe some indy shouldn't be tried in the wild and to me for a whole lot of time right oh yeah because you again like you <unk> you wouldn't you wouldn't say something like <unk> you wouldn't use that to which is like let's go you know and with with the wrong so with the wrong social situation i mean you're basically <unk> yourself with or or belittling the other person by using that you know or or picking you know picking safe for example that's the kind of thing that you would say too small like my steak come here in my state just remain calm but the thing come like <unk> if you you <unk> that's only for like children an animal you know like you you wouldn't it would be a huge mistake teens think with a co worker for example like come look at the thing on my screen on my computer screen you if you [laughter] that would not be a good thing [laughter] um actually uh something that we sort of have talked about before is that when you get into actual languages and you <unk> you start looking at like glued to the categories of things you have to figure out like how <unk> used and definitely with anything that has that ever touches politeness it's generally get complicated even with just a couple of pronouns you you have to be thinking about like where like which particular relationships do you use which ah variant because yeah it gets [noise] it it and it gets into complications with uh all of the um other um [noise] <unk> <unk> <unk> some fuel baggage and old ideas about social relationships and stuff um [noise] ah <unk> i'm i'm trying to ah at the same time figure out like what are all these like gender pronouns and stuff that people are talking about and that's a very limited looking at that uh that i just linked in there but um [noise] uh i'm i'm sure that you know it's like sort of how you know you learn in with real languages you learn one thing in a classroom and then you get out in the world and you discovered that it's used in different ways [laughter] oh yeah i just want to talk a little bit about this um costs channel article uh george used a while ago <unk> used to only by mail speakers <unk> at the end of state mentioned questions is assigned the politeness <unk> after a name to attract that person's attention mm yeah so that <unk> <unk> i think an email you would start out with like all that crap yeah like <unk> an email might even start with yeah okay and and it can be used in isolation as response wouldn't one's name has been cold and the bible might be lengthened in that situation and it's oh jason isolation and say yes to respond officer edited lead to reassure the speaker ones who tension like on the phone you're just going to be saying <unk> over and over again equivalent equivalent of eyes itchy and <unk> which is very formalized on japanese yeah but <unk> car car or a cop car for that yes absolutely and then we have any formal substitutes for deans [noise] um we have a special one for asking questions of children servants are people markedly lower status mhm but it's also used as sweet talk between males and females are best friends [laughter] what are they are getting a job uh yeah that i that kind of out of [noise] [noise] yeah 'cause i've never lived there so i wouldn't i would never tried to <unk> ever ever ever 'cause i don't know how yeah i don't know how to and that's not <unk> <unk> <unk> that's associated with children and with sweet talking lovers that is not crazy to me 'cause i mean that's that's all over the place we we call significant others maybe that kind of yeah yeah that that's frightening and here's one used by older people should get the attention of juniors em okay we have a special <unk> informing critical wow yes to indicate rudeness anger aggressiveness when speaking to strangers and but you <unk> <unk> close friends intimate friends would equal status you can just use it assertive horsing around it is the particles favorite by bad east on the big screen [laughter] and used by drinking friends as the easy being progress i think uh i said this a long time ago when we did our formality register episode is uh every language needs good ways to be deliberately rude yes ah and i guess and that's that's one of them [noise] and right and then that's just one uh ray particles beer a bunch of other claws spinal particles so you can get <unk> uh at least two four layers of these things mhm yeah the other another interesting way to be worried and ties to use a pronoun for like it and and it's clearly the context is i'm referring to him or her or sometimes even knew that like <unk> it's really it's not okay come on for a person can be really really really really rude mhm it's a good way to start a fight it sounds like yeah see we have pretty close to convict irritation things like why in the world and things to make things less abrupt and yeah <unk> especially for commands and stuff like that ah yeah now it's super useful and used all the time but again you have to be a little bit and you have to be a little bit careful you know like you wouldn't want to be making a formal request in uh in uh like to uh boston an office or something like that it's not but but you could use it with somebody who you're asking to do a special paper for you on a department store or something like that it with him [laughter] yeah ah we have here night it's a nice one and i i don't know what the tone is and i used to ah as a response to statement or questions showed it to respond to things the answer is evident mm yeah that i don't uh sorry and countries anyway i mean they're listed these things you can find their our web sites um in addition to the evidence of course we have links to just has you know ages on type articles um because there are a lot to them and they're very interesting yeah it's very interesting in this regard it seems more like stanton eastern men during mandarin has some of these [noise] whereas cantonese has a flourishing righty yeah in in terms of like pronouns mandarin has like lost most of them and like you only here a few of the formal pronouns in like historical dramas uh but uh and usually just like the ones that referred to the emperor in his his people which as we have a looted if you talk to the king in thailand you have you have a lot of difficulty [laughter] moving on a little bit from a lot of the cultural and the um like in the politeness system and stuff is um uh we do have ah in here tons and tons of different kinds of reduced location and reduced location was in fixes and all this stuff going on um william you have a bunch of that list it out so yeah so they're just plain straightforward perfect copy reduced occasion is used in various <unk> especially used on [laughter] adjectives mhm oh now we're duplicated adjectives could among other things mean a plural noun mhm so i thought that was interesting um you're adjective <unk> food either indicate to <unk> or you're sort of softening imperative slightly mhm just plain redo pinkett adjectives he's <unk> somewhat fish mm and then i <unk> honestly i didn't spend a whole lot of change staring at the many sort of experience swears [noise] the <unk> like we have an english like hamburgers man burger where were you we duplicate but you change the front <unk> or <unk> in various ways yeah rampant in all of the language and the region yeah if there there's a bunch of different things uh let me see if i can find one of the ones that um well i have a great example i mean that <unk> one of my favorite example of it is to to like faint or pass out and it can be can communicate purely by subtle subtle it's just too thing but if you say hello hi ally and you add a lie to it than hello ally it's just more like you know just get the <unk> fall apart at the things you know like it <unk> doesn't mean anything by it sell it it it goes with probable but you never hear our lives i sell it just if this <unk> [noise] extension you know this kind of partner this twin of the complex that you add to hello to mean a more interesting or emphasized or dramatic or exciting version of so it's it's really fascinating i don't know any other language that does that that whole i mean we have it for some we have like hamburgers for him or her for example but you might as well but er yeah [noise] yeah we have small numbers of that and like <unk> and <unk> what channel tiny and <unk> and other things like that but there are on 'em out of uh and a lot of cases than what goes on then thai but there yeah and they're mostly kind of like small big samples and in english and um and not productive but they seem to be at least from what this document <unk> giving the impression of that there's a lot of like productive one's in <unk> oh yes yeah yeah uh some of the uh some examples that i was seeing in um in our in in the grammar is we have one where like uh you have <unk> kids with the vows switching uh between <unk> e. and you have so there's a root for to fidget and then i do uh <unk> <unk> <unk> um uh i don't know how the see you're supposed to be pronouncements <unk> oh is it is it <unk> okay so <unk> if it's just to see though okay <unk> okay so do gee uh no that's fine too gee is petty your nagging nagging [noise] coming from concerned with detailed and then uh details <unk> uh uh root for t details come becomes ah ah to g trifling um so you have these different like <unk> with the change going on right and uh uh there's like in fixes inserted into through duplicated forum and it's very interesting sort of thing and that was that was like the main <unk> those sorts of things were the main thing where um where i was looking at best and i'm like oh this is a tonal language and these things that they do are totally not anything like chinese chinese [laughter] the only <unk> chinese has is full syllables and uh there's interesting things going on with that but but not the kind of like partial and and um you know in fiction sorted into republican and stuff but thai is going on with and there's even like <unk> like um this currently non productive uh positive has you know several different variance uh depending on contacts there's several of these like <unk> have the food the cosby of <unk> ah bomb uh or just a regular plain p. ah prefix to sing so that's another thing is that oh you can still get like lots of <unk> of inflict of uh of these um i think these are <unk> like a deaf original constant right there there are traces well traces of <unk> there are other sort of synthetic caused the constructions which are very sensitive to the enemy sea of clumsy mm okay so there's there's more than one way to do that yeah and so in addition to this sort of many varieties of redo patient and if you look at any <unk> you're going to see the same sort of thing and you can remove age and you <unk> all of these languages do this independent which also interesting is there are a large number of worms which had an expression which me for adjectives that means very adjectives where the very is unique to that word or is unique to a small number of words and <unk> no other place i like it so for example 'cause i just i still think <unk> so <unk> rock i liked it a lot it's like <unk> tall rock right i really like it a lot in the rye goes where it's counterpart um <unk> compliments it again it's just this new funniest suffix that is it special for for a ma then right partner and have a sibling tomorrow and you could say my clock but you could also say mock right which just sounds better in certain circumstances and write a little bit more substance ear and yeah and and some of them have know there's plenty of that have no ambience phonetic relationship too the word that they're intensifying mhm um so there's a lot of what's going on another document lincolnshire that will put it in the show notes [noise] called the decorative morphology mayor and it's just talks about these kinds of special intensive fires that apparently have no motivation other than <unk> you're just decorative yeah it just i i read them better right exactly and that's one thing about <unk> no other language i was uh uh this kind of [noise] there's this playful that that's kind of <unk> in the phonology that and the the the kind of option that you have for expression that i it's just fun you know like and it light hearted and and playful i where where where's mandarin feels very kind of formal and fix to maine thai that's always felt very right and and playful more so than than mandarin even though they to me they sing you know in my own head they occupy similar kinds of boxes but but the tires just lock their locker fun there's all kinds of playful and that's going on and the spirit of the thai people is is very playful too you know as as as uh experiential late to <unk> to be there and and their cities and towns that just it feels more light hearted playful and a lot of ways so i [noise] it's interesting for me to to feel it in the language true mm mm that's an interesting idea um i need to like look at a newspaper more now yes and they went to i want to look into um large yeah i i don't know if um you know but anyway i'm not <unk> much more about that 'cause i i actually hadn't looked at the paper that much i just think what it is it like i think it's something and certain kinds of <unk> will take two like candy yeah so that's why it's their own and it looks like some natural human languages do it too so why not yeah and they went to when i was looking at this paper there's another one i don't know where it is they suggested most of our grammar is nothing more than <unk> human creative <unk> brings me <unk> you need to clearly communicates is quite simple compared to say my or not [laughter] are all in all natural human languages are extraordinarily complex and detailed and exotic in comparison to the tax they're trying to accomplish well that there is an interesting thing going on like the thing that i can think of is i remember reading a paper about agreement and just talking <unk> was just talking about <unk> like the idea of what the commuters do do function of agreement would be is to increase some redundancy to uh in order to uh <unk> improve understanding the stadium but then like you know you point out that well there's there's a slight problem with this in that if it was this useful then why is it like some languages have tons of agreement and then some language have languages have know agreement [noise] and also just had an immigrant yeah <unk> yeah there's there's lots of languages that have none at all so house oh hold on the plane and so that's just uh i uh you know i don't know you know being like uh you know technically a linguist i don't know if i went to totally throw my hat in and say uh creative exhibits is everything but it's a possibility [laughter] um but not everything but more than maybe me yeah possibly positively it's ah there's some invented miss going on but um i was just mostly interested in the fact that <unk> has these um has all of these things mainly because it was not what i expected from hey what would normally be <unk> what would be uh a and asian type <unk> language and that may just be because i did not know that much about these like you'll never know chinese yeah i know chinese and chinese is is a very limited bucket it's there's lots of chinese languages but since they're all extremely closely related then you you miss out on certain possibilities if you only are looking at that and i'm like i'm seeing here has been <unk> which i mentioned before so you know um <unk> is uh <unk> and then dumb them none is to conduct to proceed so and this this um in fix is like making something more formal more technical or something [laughter] uh so uh that's not something just in fixes in general are not something i would be thinking of having in any language like to try to now maybe i will think about it [noise] ah but um and plus <unk> yes before we get uh out there was one more thing that i really want to ask britain about britain you been in like thailand and like used thai didn't reality right <unk> yes i have yes so the thing is the one thing that i remember hearing that i don't know much about but i i would kind of like to explain it i've heard this thing of thai people usually use nicknames with each other [laughter] sort of explain like what this this is this is sort of more on cultural thing than anything dealing with language but it's it's it interests me to hear about it yeah so it's um almost almost everyone in thailand go calm and lay by a nickname not by their <unk> and there there are lots of ideas are stories about why that is true i mean historically um like many asian countries people had a single name and then when the [noise] quit more formality came around with the government and tracking people and family <unk> other things like that uh people ended up having to names you know a family name and ah then given lines and the name scott really super long because a lot of cases that were descriptive or something mm um so the name you know you <unk> you might have a really really raw name as a given what's proper and that needs to be the case for every [noise] to pay for it with that person and their future [laughter] how 'bout uh just censor but then it's just one way to call 'cause i'm more <unk> like for everybody charge me saying <unk> that [noise] so in english frequently <unk> hi <unk> hey it's are more often so i'm kind of traits that the parents are the <unk> <unk> and uh and the child when they're very young so if a baby it's particularly strong for example they they might get the nickname wreck which is just plain sprawl you know <unk> <unk> <unk> not big um so that would end up being their their nickname and then they may actually end up growing very tall you know because that was what the growth spurt when they were a teenager or something but they might still end up being called black or sometimes the names the nick <unk> like change [noise] um but it's it's most common for everybody to be no and and to go by within family and mainly <unk> groups ah not that friendship <unk> sorry um by a nickname so you it's really quite unusual for people to be called in everyday life by their by their <unk> <unk> can be like an adjective like <unk> or they can be a word like now or they can be at work uh like bird or something like that they're all kinds of different different names that come from every day <unk> but they're you know you still stick to it still stick to the honor effects you know he'll call them <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> in an office situation if somebody were being refer to buy their nickname it would still get a mister little on it you know like he would still be missed her little or myth bird or whatever you know like you still get the right kind of honorary um address but with a nickname not what the name that's when your birth certificate [noise] okay so that's the the the interesting thing to me is it's like we have <unk> we have nicknames obviously everybody uh i i think any any culture will have sort of nicknames but like you talking about using it as as an office situation and calling some some guy mr little and the fact that like i think in english we don't have as much of that happening like the the meaningful nicknames and if somebody had a meaningful nickname i don't think you would never use it as an in an office right that's see that's the difference that that is interesting to me we might we might in an office setting still use like occasionally like nicknames that are derived from you're given name like i don't know if william allows anyone to call him we'll we'll is perfectly fine uh-huh bill is right up nobel okay hobo 'cause that's my step father i'm not going to answer to that [laughter] okay [noise] ah so um yeah the nicknames or are very important i mean even i mean and it's so common even to the point that in my household here we have a siamese cat we had to we have one or raining and so she has a long time <unk> excessively kinda not really realistic but long <unk> we we tend not worth one come back on on you know he has this super long name but he goes by <unk> we call him and everybody who doesn't know his real tight and i notice him as deck our cat deck and decks comes from the tie word that which means child so so it has a long day means child adopted an infinite laws siamese cat who was a child adopted an infinite raw you know it's kind of this ridiculous lee long legs but that doesn't that's not practical for calling the cat in everyday life so we just call him decks with just the anglo size version of the time i work for a small our child everyday work her child as opposed to vote which is that work for a child that than his formal name which comes from sanskrit though so we do the same thing even with our cat [laughter] mommy full circle here's here's the fun here's here's a funny question do you think uh type person would actually do that no not with a pet no not like that they were that but um but they they would never give a pet uh big kind of proper form or man yeah that's how we exaggerated the cat right because well you know we're doing it tongue in cheek anyway but but but people but people's real names for for human certainly they have very long uh formal founding came from a sanskrit names with lots of theater and other things and then that nobody can pronounce [noise] and um and and they end up being called you know mouthy or or <unk> or whatever and and <unk> their identity is much more [noise] i would have to say that their everyday identity is much more tied to their nickname than it is tied to their and kevin name on the birth certificate [noise] mm okay let me see i've seen i've seen tied names and i'm i know what you're talking about the <unk> with them being super long the like you know we you know you see occasionally some type person mentioned in the news <unk> a big long name i presume that those are the formal names yeah nobody will ever called them uh i will nobody would ever call them but but it would be very <unk> in everyday life it would be extremely rare for them to be called by those yeah okay bye bye therefore names yeah <unk> i mean on like spain for example or france where you might have double or triple names that you two k. at clubs up here you know or whatever or all the time mhm that doesn't happen very often thailand they tend to have a one syllable short <unk> okay well anyway is that that just interested me but uh that's uh a particular <unk> interesting sort of cultural <unk> putting on to me to think that [noise] you know nobody calls you by <unk> <unk> <unk> be very rare to find someone to call you by the <unk> the name on your birth certificate [noise] but uh <unk> interested like even in your office people call you buy those like kids nickname [noise] but anyway but but then of course you have to realize that once you become a certain age you become an older brother older sister or you become anti or uncle or are you know you you <unk> you end up being called the nickname but then with a kind of [noise] societal <unk> pre fix that um oh okay that's so it's not like it's not like being call you know bailey your entire life actually you know like it's more like <unk> that nickname then get attached to some kind of title for what we want you also are as an adult and different people are are referring to you as older brother older brother you know older sister burke or something as opposed to just <unk> so you know like it's not there's more <unk> there's more practicality in uh in terms of how people actually sort out as being who they are within the cultural contacts as they age and that they're at things might change with our state er society or something like that so it's not just as simple uh everybody's getting cold or something with the gym in into stuck on it you know it's it's more complex <unk> what'd you say that that makes me think more towards chinese where you don't have these these nicknames but a lot of times people when they're talking to other people that they know they called them by a ah some <unk> or something that's derived from a kinship term or some title but that's relevant um and just use use the title working shipped term rather than any any name and all right and that that's also a very common anti mm and then if you can eat to clarify who you're talking about you what anything is a nickname or their whole night if you know the whole night [laughter] but uh but uh yeah no it's also it's also very calm or for there to be a combination of things and uh even a teacher for example you know get you would never call a teacher by their nickname but you would stick mr you would call them mister teacher or you know whether it's male or female and corn cruel you know like you said it's so they're all kinds of different things going on with formality [noise] that things not to inform or with you know what i'm talking about a <unk> a nickname does not automatically <unk> <unk> and and [laughter] waiting either oh not all like so that's that's an interesting [noise] i thought that was an interesting sort of thing uh it's definitely much more towards the cultural and but <unk> slightly connected with language so i want to do yeah over there any other bits and bombs we went to calmer i had two more mhm tidy again like many languages region likes to use a topic come and structure mhm in everyday normal conversation topic too mhm it can be an entire claws and there you can use a party at the radio now but in written language it gets crazy the topic is introduced by a special uh <unk> and then there's another adverb that comes before the verb [laughter] so it's interesting to me that the whole difficulty of topical beijing isn't washed away informing writing oh it starts to look like you know english and we have to shake it as far as that blah blah blah [noise] really yeah like inform writing they add add a bunch of stuff i guess the topic is given how the rating system works i tried to a huge deprived hey there's no space in between word yeah the ride it i mean it's crazy there's no place where there's absolutely no place between work and it's like you would think that it's utterly impossible but somehow or they get used to it it's not and having no space between words it's not super crazy for like chinese 'cause you like it there but this is <unk> yeah <unk> but then thai yeah thai is an avid <unk> and you have like were you know you have to read you know the whole word out <unk> and you know you well i <unk> and [noise] i have exposure to to japanese and <unk> and tie and are by far when you're faced with a page attack the most daunting is tai because with japanese you have all kinds of things in there to help you know where orange per or golf and with mandarin you've learned the individual character but what exactly well that's correct it's an <unk> you know like it it's really hard to tell sometimes especially when there's lots of <unk> and other stuff going on it's <unk> and you don't know all the words because they're super <unk> proper it's really hard to tell where [laughter] where the quote unquote work or you know hi it's really hard that's um yeah in with the the the craziest harder if it makes me feel like it it it sounds to me like it would be sort of like um reading a um a medieval manuscript before people started using spaces but we're <unk> yeah i mean sanskrit does the same thing you it's it's all just cramped together you're at the end of the sentences march and that's about it [noise] yeah you <unk> start to figure it out maybe it's a little bit tough and and then the last thing i wanted to mention was uh miami and print grammar here has some some things there's some interesting number idioms mm and when you say that you have a hundred and eighty five something it means all kinds of [noise] oh so hundred eight dogs means all kinds of dogs that's so weird number for that too attached to their other of these that referred to various <unk> who just called them although jeez [laughter] yeah i don't know any of those but that's what it when you said that that's what i felt like to me especially the eight hundred and eight you know <unk> there must be a story behind it so i'm sure there is but it's just just out there is a fun little fish idiom well yeah <unk> they're always fun and with numbers which george you know how much i hate [noise] uh yeah well i and i was looking at the numbers earlier by the way trying to figure out um it looks like for some reason it has so ty has general sort of same idea going on as um as uh as chinese with its primary sort of accounting numbers um making sure that i'm sure written knows these but <unk> at twenty the the the word for tuesday is used in twenty is a different word for two didn't is yeah than the normal word for too yeah they <unk> yeah first trip <unk> fox tape it yeah slight bit of regularity in there but it um and then you you mentioned that there's the other number systems used [laughter] with the uh <unk> numbers and all that [noise] why not [laughter] only those were specialize in any sense like we would have do all on trial in other words like that too <unk> mm yeah well i mean i think uh when i learnt <unk> dog they use spanish uh the way i learned it it may very between like regions <unk> they use spanish only free telling time so [noise] um so it's not that weird i think to be learning in numbers for like specialized purposes like that yeah yeah [noise] um if we're racket wrapping up one thing that i would say is that i think by far one of the best on line dictionaries for any language and the entire world is tai hyphen language dot com so i strongly strongly recommend that people go <unk> go check out hi hi her language dot com because the way the grower [noise] everything is architect or uh or or well planned in terms of click ability for following <unk> it's amazing so i you can find really wrong interesting we're and as you roll over for the individual words um you will be able to click through to go to that segment that that <unk> what's going on and you'll see whether that breaks down to a separate word or it's just uh you know uh uh oh phonetics thing that's going on and then it relates back all the other words that sound and so people who are into morphology it or you will love it [noise] mhm [noise] uh i i took uh i i just ah <unk> <unk> <unk> ah <unk> up some words [noise] and uh yeah it's interesting it's yeah it does pretty good hey it's fantastic it's <unk> it's the best resource i know for learning anything about pie because you if you're curious you can just go die then and euro and you'll come out four hours later i mean <unk> <unk> it's really really fast sledding what a good dictionary should be like yeah it really is i mean that's fantastic yeah that's all i wanted to say yeah sadly i can't play the sound on that for some reason and <unk> <unk> it works out before that's nice [laughter] but yes and look up boring and has all these example <unk> the word so that's that's nice yeah and if you if you scroll through i mean there's a forward like boy they're pages and pages and pages of stuff but but you can um look up a word like sleep for example that william mentioned earlier and you will you know you'll see that they're different words here and then they're example and then if you keep going down you see [noise] um [noise] variations for uh different contacts and different words are sleeping person's drowsy and what happened with a part of what the particles for to get on <unk> i mean it's just a fantastic dictionary it's a wonderful wonderful dictionary it looks good [noise] well then uh i guess we shouldn't wrap up this episode uh it looks like it's going to be alone one but ah ah let's 'em out and uh do you guys have any last things to say before we go out and i can't think of anything no um just said thai thai is a lot of fun for lots of different reasons and ties are um <unk> culturally they they were much embrace non type people trying to learn their language and you can <unk> it's <unk> it's more approachable then you think it is i i i will say that i mean for lots of different races and her anybody who likes cryptic <unk> <unk> [laughter] uh [laughter] [noise] it just looks it looks quite crazy uh er it seems to be quite crazy so uh you know we didn't cover much must be harder for you might might not even be easy to to talk about on the show but uh yeah <unk> historical yes so with that i think we're done uh remember guys to keep watching out for um for britain's a documentary and ah one more thing i want to send out i question to the audience because this came up uh to me ah via sort of tutor i want to ask people ah would you buy like tee shirts and mugs things related to <unk> i just want to hear what kind of response we get because you know tons of people would like to do that then it might be worth it but if it's just a few people [noise] then i don't know but that would be i think that might be interesting thing to do and an interesting thing on top of our [noise] a little bit of each other on stuff coming in [noise] so [noise] or just do it on <unk> yeah just ah just ah [noise] putting that question after [noise] would find that stuff and i'm going to say i've become my [noise] thank you for listening to con [noise] find our our time show no i'm lying or not [noise] support us on patriotic i made three on dot com slash fun language you can also find this on face both litter and small foods or online and if you would like to hear your on line featured on the top of the show you could look at our [noise] tribute has the truck or what you translate outta cindy [noise] on language web spaces provided by some language creation society and our music is by no divine [noise]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. language
  5. linguistics
  6. names
  7. reduplication
  8. Thai
  9. tone

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 114 Thai (natlang) (last edited 2017-09-10 01:28:28 by TranscriBot)