Conlangery #115: Tsolyáni

Conlangery #115: Tsolyáni

Published: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 05:00:38 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] <unk> are just fucking started languages and the people who create them i'm george or late with me down the roadways william and us audi [noise] and we have a special gas today um [noise] he ah works with the um take them out uh foundations and he also uh teaches at uh whereas if you teach madison college yet at madison college this is uh victor raymond uh and he's also i guess down the road a ways yep hello uh victor is going to be talking to us today our topic is a language that is very near and dear to him that is uh so yeah and uh we'll get more into details about that uh uh language created by m. a. r. barker so um before we get into that i have a few announcements we're going to uh uh go into first of all the as we are recording this we just came out of the uh the l. c. s. members meeting and i went to say congratulations to the new board members german johnson jim hopkins yeah in front stained bergen uh jeffrey brown and also the new elsie a secretary temp just awful and uh two silvia sort of my order for being reelected as the treasure yeah [laughter] the next thing uh as this pot cast comes comes out like summer we'll be underway that means uh but if you don't know what like september is it's a big event in some some of the coddling communities where a bunch of <unk> uh create one word every day and we all share it around and i will be looking at the the <unk> and um if people are sharing things on public to ah i'll probably look there and you know uh <unk> sharing certain things are probably also have a short around the beginning of the year that uh like i did last year that say um wrap up of like summer highlighting some interesting words and um another thing ah we're having a um an episode coming up that's going to be talking about all kinds of book resources that will be useful to con layers and we'd like your suggestion so you can send those to con language email dot com what what books you like what <unk> books do you think every congress should have on their shelves all of them [laughter] that's uh something we wanted to get some input you can also tweed us and everything ah and finally a new web search site is being worked on the <unk> is working on that she agreed to do that too for us for free and uh we are going to have that uh ready fairly sued i won't put a firm deadline on it but uh uh expect some changes to the <unk> some time in the future okay so that was all the announcements and uh let's move into sold yummy so victor you're the expert on on this why don't you just introduce us too so johnny and um you personally knew the creator of the language so um tell tell us a little bit about um and my our barker and about uh <unk> just to introduce us i i when you said expert and i thought to myself oh dear [laughter] i i i should probably worn your listeners that i'm i'm a sociologist not linguists by training um but i i have some <unk> <unk> constructed language and that came about because of my uh friendship long standing friendship with professor m. a. r. barker uh professor barker uh was a professor of south asian languages at the university of minnesota for many years and uh in addition to his linguistics work which included work on the climates language and then on or do uh professor barker invented in film like rich uh and in fact in more than one in relation to the fantasy world that he constructed uh which is called <unk> or take 'em out mhm and ah this was something that uh professor burger it started in on at a very young age um in an article that was published in nineteen seventy five uh in the predecessor to dragging magazine [noise] uh he writes ah that he uh he his creation of the language and the creation of the world uh happened did a very young age as he writes here i began my working so much the usual away a little army of world war one totally toy soldiers politically assembled from the metric arsenals dinosaurs [noise] my parents emphasis on upon classical various stories history and literature rather spoiled by interest in the realities of presentation warfare however and this was reinforced by such book says jay <unk> wonders of the past [laughter] a marvelous set of books for a child if you want him or her to grow up to be an ancient history freak [laughter] [noise] all of this was further influenced by such films as the fee for baghdad and before he was consciously aware of it <unk> which is the country <unk> that uh she created for his language seems to have her merged [noise] and he writes ah i have no real conscious recollection of this development and it ended up being the case to paraphrase his is much longer account [noise] uh that uh he created it when he was a small child when he had uh first gotten the idea from listening to other children in his idaho town where he grew up uh speaking language he didn't understand uh he recall that being <unk> if he you know you must absolutely sure <unk> sure it was bombs [noise] um and so from that and along with an interest as i've already mentioned uh he created a world any created language to go along with it and that language so yummy was something that he worked on for the next fifty years mhm and so from the time that he ended up going to high school and then going to graduate school at uh university of california berkley and then going on from there on a fulbright scholarship to uh study in india and pakistan uh she uh ended up doing a great deal linguistics work uh and he writes is here my subsequent studies traveling research have not done much change any of these languages the ones that he created i've written a grammar dictionary <unk> an american indian language oregon for books on earth do one of the nature languages india and pakistan and <unk> plus studying umpteen others and teaching something <unk> continues to fill up on its own individual lines as before [noise] and so in nineteen seventy five he uh published a game ah much in the same vein as dungeons and dragons called empire the pedal from which was the world's first real introduction to all of this and uh an intricately peak detailed world with uh a massive history too it's and uh a language that everyone was both ah amazed and in chanted pie and sometimes daunting by [noise] and so uh if token took his inspiration from northern europe professor burger took his inspiration from india and the <unk> as tax and arab pathology mhm right and that and interesting earlier than others you have to oh dude <unk> trained in not directly to classical tradition [laughter] certainly been part of that background that was the air they were reading created were created languages from a very young age and then later turn them into some sort of art walking token novel or could have made more games and and also wrote a novel novels <unk> right <unk> yeah yeah he actually wrote to novels which were published in the nineteen eighties and then ah three more novels after that and in unfinished [noise] forth novel at the time of the stuff and twenty a lot of [noise] [noise] so the fact that it got incorporated into a role playing game is really interesting to me though because i have heard of like con language now that are sort of using their languages in like their own uh role playing campaigns and it's it's definitely an interesting way to shirt especially uh going to the extent that barker did and actually publishing his setting 'cause then basically you give it give pull out the whole setting and you've got basically the the the language uh and the other languages of uh of this world has uh quite a few actually that he created most of the in the same language family those all become you know extra slap books for whoever wants to you know get further into the world can buy those language books [noise] yeah uh <unk> is the most complete of all of them <unk> uh professor barker uh roads uh uh two volume set <unk> language which was um you published originally nineteen seventy eight and it was free released by adventure games a couple of years later and them along with that he published a number of other articles about different languages related to <unk> and some not related to slowly on me at all but uh still as he was known to his friends uh was a man of many talents [laughter] he would be exactly the sort of similar to come up with an entire language family and then also write articles about language is not in that language families that were all created mhm so uh [noise] normally when we talk about both on line and and natural lying on the show we try to do so um we do things where we can point people freebie was resources which we really can't do virtual yummy um you can buy them at quite <unk> quite reasonable prices from [laughter] r._p._g. what's the name of the west i drive through r._p._g. dot com right they uh quite reasonable i'm lucky enough to have hunted down to volume until you only language [noise] um [noise] which uh the language description so intensely agent yes it's it's <unk> yeah he did he right to have somebody type or hadn't uh judging by the type place in presentation professor burger wrote this himself and he doesn't eat right because the accent either primary or secondary [noise] he's gone through and by hand it looks like mark accents everywhere actually tight but some of them i've seen some documentation where they look handwritten oh it's it's quite possible uh professor barker uh types this out and then put the <unk> and and uh if if necessary ended up adding accent <unk> <unk> as needed he owns typewriters that had a wide range of accent marks available um partly simply because he was working in non european languages non <unk> european languages for the most part yeah keep it so the there were uh there are a few places where you might have had to because he has one character that the uh you within <unk> yep and uh sometimes he has to put an acute action over that i don't know it's hard to say whether that one looks like he had to sort of position in a way that he might have had the handwriting or something right [noise] i go ahead oh it it just simply that uh uh he was a stickler for making sure that everything was as it should be uh i in going through his notes and novels and other materials [noise] we have to work pretty hard in order to find uh lots and lots of errors uh you know proofreading errors in his his materials and presentation [noise] uh <unk> uh very much uh the <unk> who would um [noise] he created world he uh got trained in uh key whining and typesetting by his father uh he was self trained in in various different forums since uh uh hobbies and and uh [noise] you know arts and uh he was pretty good at a lot of them [laughter] so yeah i i i'm not surprised as you go through that you you might find that he's he's had to put in a handwritten accents on top of some of it but for the most part i suspect that he did almost everything you could on <unk> on a typewriter he thought that computers were wonderful except when he broke them [laughter] so the dictionary is a hundred and thirty pages and i did a very rough counting it looks like there's about two thousand two thousand two hundred words in the publish version of the language and i have to assume that there were other things which is a very respectful number that is a very respectful number [noise] um [noise] some of them are some of the vocabulary or just glossy but most of the word definition are more sophisticated than that they're not huge um in the way that i enjoy so much but most of them are are pretty pretty good um i suppose it's relevant to mention hatred it u. r. r. e. techno nation we ah you just described it briefly and then we can move on to some of the <unk> [noise] ah the <unk> was started by professor barker and a number of his regular uh game players ah in two thousand eight ah myself among them and we started it in order to uh preserved and promote uh professor burgers uh creative ah work um [noise] while he was alive we acted to support his own efforts and making <unk> available to the world and after he passed away uh we continue to promote his creative like a <unk> mhm right okay so the game can still be <unk> you have any effort to try [noise] we just re release the tech a mail source spark which can be purchased online from r._p._g. now dot com or drive through r._p._g. top com uh-huh and it's uh our reprint of the original game science edition right so i think probably what's going to have a george and i will talk a little bit about the linguistics stuff going on here which will be interesting to hunting but i'd like to come back to the question of how both the language might be you gain if at all mhm and uh sort of relate the world building into language a little bit um since you had the opportunity to play the game for many years with barking at will provide [noise] george yeah we're talking about some of the sign language thing [noise] yeah so like starting off as we usually do start with sort of phonology nothing really sticks out to to uh hard on on me there's just there's a straight voicing distinction and stops and um there's a a um there's uh you can see some of it is influences in terms of other languages he got a you know retro flex ah presumably influence from indian languages he's got like uh uh some <unk> and ah the ah voice was lateral probably came from uh knowing some things about uh american indian languages [noise] the one interesting little tidbit is so the the vowels there's a vow five hour system plus this valve that he represents with a <unk> it can be <unk> uh front rounded vow or i back on rounded vow or <unk> <unk> depending on the dialect yet which is it's a very odd thing [laughter] interested me i don't know like what really to say about it but ah [noise] i just mentioned that it was originally central and then yeah maybe it was some sort of <unk> central vow uh i didn't uh i didn't uh look at the <unk> grammar uh totally army is within the world they descendent of <unk> but uh i guess if i looked at uh <unk> maybe i could figure out like where that is coming from but yeah that that seems to be the most likely scenario that it was like central and went into directions and he was definitely thinking about historical stuff if you read the grand marine regularly mentioning you know descended from blah blah blah um what's in good just sort of solid dramatically they shouldn't stuff as well not just this came from inspired historical language but it you know you can get in the original <unk> dramatically nation started so that's pretty good oh yeah it's it's very much full of grammatical is asian and uh that really gets it going one when he goes into the morphology he's arrange that in terms of like a word classes and you know starting with the now the downs are uh i think what i said was they are a that are crazy pile up of uh gluten nation [noise] and they get very very long they can't get very very interesting i'm so accustomed to um languages words the bird that gets all of this attention mhm so you only verb is quite straightforward yeah there's not too much to verbs there's i mean <unk> yeah yeah there's there's a a bit of infection and stuff that's quite settling complicated has handled in separate word um whether you wish to interpret those as a <unk> or um [noise] particles it up to you [noise] um so it's not like they're just straight english but they're not out and get a lot of loving intention yes uh i i feel like i want to um read this this thing that uh you you call the number but i have a feeling that i'm gonna mess mess it up but ah so an example the the j. is just as a yeah <unk> it's a job it's a joke okay so an example of just how long things can go uh <unk> <unk> <unk> to to <unk> to to <unk> oh no <unk> badly died last sunday <unk> [laughter] to plan <unk> oh <unk> no this this fad uh sunday call at the end anyway <unk> uh uh uh uh <unk> [noise] uh yes um [noise] yeah right ah it's so rare a day to actually be addressing the <unk> yes so this is the word that i i just read it translates to that this the one most great my v. living and for whom i love consider um nipped in uh and of whom i stand in awe so that is basically one now but i just read obviously so anything that refers directly to the f. or or the <unk> gets really really long [laughter] but but the the um if we go into if we went into the sort of the different aspects is you can you can see sort of where all these things go there's [noise] so the demonstrative yet like pre fixed onto the now than there is a bunch of qualifiers there are these ah personal attitude free fixes and ah general attitude suffix is which um some of the personal attitude <unk> are sort of tents like things like yesterday or last year uh or future but there's also sort of your someone's personal feelings about something involved in that right um and then the there's the general attitude suffix is which are um a little bit more there's more there's supposed to be like shared feelings of everybody and um ah there's things like great or pretty are beautiful um in that thing uh it's uh but i read there's um dolly dolly which is dolly means ah sort of big are great and it can be were duplicated for emphasis and um there's also <unk> is donny and that causes me the <unk> you know all these beautiful right right yes they're very they're close to one another <unk> beautiful are are similar to one another i guess same and um there's possessive suffix says uh there's some some i i think uh lucrative <unk> and there's the noble noble plural suffix is so noble and noble and <unk> are the gender system yeah classes uh william would you wanna talk a little bit about that or um so [noise] some how these uh work makes me think a bit utah has taken like so in those languages you have something called the absolute in which has nothing whatsoever to do with a lemon um it's just that um modified now being used in attention take absolute ending unless there was that or they're being used and um so you can't just have this <unk> hanging out something has to happen to it and and so you only you have any noble ending and <unk> and the small class that are um be mark [noise] which um really rare [laughter] they are rare and that sort of things that are obviously and intensely obviously where they belong and so they bark [noise] um [noise] uh so yeah the the <unk> in a mixed code um sex somewhat it it's not [noise] there might be <unk> you say that it's completely sex space but any email royalty it's also sort of raised in a <unk> class so [noise] it's a little bit more complicated than that um noble noble endings go away a haste <unk> is edited so that i thought it was really interesting what really made me think of like some of the second languages um plural doesn't <unk> there's just a code carol ending um and i think they're using compile yes they're using <unk> than the <unk> or <unk> yeah [noise] i'm just too like clarify what the the <unk> noble thing is is that the the <unk> tick basis of it is partly sort of like social prestige and social status and women by default are big noble and meant by default are noble but very lower low class man can get to the <unk> and then very high class women can be um noble right so uh the this language i wrote in my nose this language hates women very much i'm sure that's true not i i it's it's it is a curious example of if you and i say this from the context of game play the language itself make code for you know male and female nobility enigma ability but i assure you that if you spoke in a fashion that was not appropriate to a woman of of any status whatsoever you would quickly find out what was wrong [laughter] uh and and and i get <unk> this is the case i i mean without i i'm not <unk> i'm not actually trying to defend the characterization because i think on an abstract level i think you're right um i think it's a case of where the language abstract clearly has that character to it but in terms of how it was <unk> culturally it it is lessened significant <unk> and when i say this language hates women it's <unk> it's not really i don't really want i i'm sort of exaggerating my point a little bit there are weird things like the gender miss of um big noble noble and the the the way that gender gets involved in choice of pronouns which will get into an a little bit and then there's also the suffix like raw that means despicable or female you know yeah <unk> are female but i think it's it's it's clearly a case of culturally you're pretty clear as to what you're talking about right and they don't <unk> i mean depends on where you are ah in southern <unk> there may be a greater sense of that although really i don't know if we ever really encountered that [noise] but the further north you go to more matriarchal the more equality there is of sexes and <unk> yeah it's it's and professor burger wrote about this but yeah i mean if you went south from the city of chicago norris along the sumo to revert to the city of b. c. uh which is the imperial capital uh you would find that uh that the the social structure of <unk> society with with subtly change from being fairly patriarchal to being [noise] um more equal and if you went north from there to the uh north <unk> to cure gone and then further north in the country would be on court <unk> very matriarchal <unk> approach to social interaction [noise] <unk> yeah but i mean as you can see i i i i feel like <unk> yeah that that's that's very good interesting context to have when we're talking about this then because [noise] the basically the i._d. i got just from reading the the <unk> language um i i got that um i bought the p._b._s. for that um the idea i got was that this language is reflecting uh very patriarchal society and to know that there's more nuanced of that in the world is an interesting thing to know now that you've ah talked about it [laughter] well the to the <unk> honey the organizing concepts of what we would think of is good and bad or good and evil mhm um are not very <unk> not real late too though it's very well to them good and evil on it they think of almost directly as being very <unk> very subjective it's all you <unk> well it's good for you right oh that's bad well yeah i can see how you'd feel that way right [noise] but to the <unk> the the organizing concepts of of how to act mm ah revolve around this idea of nobility and they'd go ability and to be noble is just the sillier your station to fulfill your your place in society to be who you are is supposed to be expected to be uh and you know and and that that is denote it by the <unk> word hold me and the and and you know by contrast to not social once place in society to to act <unk> well that's probably okay should knows that that that raw ah in this case prefix ends up being the the the defining characteristic there <unk> [noise] but then that then as far as women are concerned you know yes you know that the you know the run on the celtics ron seems to indicate the feminine gender but just in <unk> society if a woman wants to be treated equally ah as a man uh she can uh publicly declare uh upon reaching adulthood that she is going to be considered honored donnie <unk> and uh and after that she is treated as a man that is a social state [noise] mm [noise] so yeah the language of no noble sort of complicated issue normal for um <unk> effectively is to start <unk> funny because the ending in news or very routine grammatical matters that have nothing whatsoever we're makes no sense for <unk> and yet they're always marks ignorant because that's just the rule mhm [noise] so that means to me take into consideration as well i do think it's interesting point out that this is the game system is so unlike anything remotely like um any many system that basically token inspired um even though there is a word for dragging it in the dictionary this is not a world of night l true this is uh uh uh cultured <unk> um [noise] world we've seen usually complex social expectations and relationships and politics and i that's actually something i i actually wanted to ask about because this <unk> this this setting the the games setting is supposed to use to be you know developed for dungeons and dragons but the way the world is getting structured does not really lead me to the idea of a traditional dungeons and dragons <unk> curl game where you're just killing monsters it makes me think more of like more like stories steak dice lists even uh systems that are all about interaction in role playing and stuff what kind of systems do you usually use when you're doing running games <unk> um my ah [laughter] oh well i'll i'll let me let me give you there's there's two pieces to this that or <unk> one is that ah when professor parker originally developed in part of the pedal from what had happened was that he had been introduced to dungeons and dragons even before it had been published in nineteen seventy four mhm okay he encountered it nineteen seventy three and he played in some games that had been run because uh he knew uh some of what he was the faculty advisor for the conflict simulation association at the university of minnesota which was a student organizations for gamers at the time [noise] and his first impression of the end he was very simple well this is all very well and good 'cause he recognized it's inspiration outta fantasy but where's the society mhm [noise] and in fact empire the total thrown was pretty much his response to that he said you know it's great that there's a game for people who wish to be heroic but they have to have a world and see backdrop as something to interact with and i just happened to have this world that i'd been developing since there was a small child [noise] here you go mhm okay and that was very much his approach to it was that he felt that the world was unnecessary aspect of baking the game meaningful [noise] uh the sort of games that he ran leader ah frankly disposed does most of the game mechanics that he originally came up with that with them off a lot like original dungeons and dragons and instead what he did was he just simply ah roll tyson pursuit of very free forum narratives kind of storytelling uh approach okay how long did you play the game continuously i was a member of the what we've referred to as the thursday night group for approximately twenty five years right there were there were a couple of breaks that i took an there one uh partly for graduate school one partly because my job interfering at the time [noise] but that <unk> i mean that was uh uh a couple of years so yeah i mean twenty twenty five years is pretty much how long it's like okay um short is there anything else we want to talk about [noise] the grammar well um definitely um the the other like thing that sticks out is the pronouns rights hot yeah and there's there's a lot of social like social interaction stuff that goes in [noise] ah the main thing i want us to talk about with the pronoun so first person in second person pronouns have these different class versions and it goes from like <unk> lowest class there's like one two three four five six levels for the first person pronouns um that go from like the very lowest classes of like these are like slaves at such up to their one pronoun that only use for the emperor or the <unk> so the interesting thing here is not so much this that sort of set but the fact that he actually goes into some depth on who would use these pronouns uh with whom <unk> especially when you get into the second person 'cause there's a lot of special second person pronounce that are just for specific relationships and this is the model i would follow if you want to have just tons of pronouns that have all sorts of politeness interactions because when you have even even very simple uh you know distinction between uh you know uh a simple like too who who uh distinction in pronouns uh up to these really complicated pronounce lightening systems it's all about the relationship between the two people talking [laughter] oh yeah [noise] oh very much so [laughter] yeah [laughter] um and there there's you know very simple things like in the first person pronouns um among people of equal nobility women use lower pronouns right people of equal class women will uh like not take themselves and knocked down if it's a mixed group and there are all of a whole lot of situations where you might choose a pronoun that's that's lower <unk> in since uh than your actual class when talking to someone a higher but you never are presumptuous and take the higher level for yourself because that would just be rude mhm oh yeah [noise] yeah yeah um yeah in fact actually there's the uh uh the pronoun that's used [noise] if you think that someone [laughter] spin pushing their social status uh too much uh you know the the [noise] and if you were to refer to them and so i <unk> yes yes the u. of placid indifferent to social interiors who appear to be pushing for undeserving respect right yeah [noise] so [noise] this list thrown out on page seventeen <unk> hold out during games were oh yeah [laughter] [noise] you know obviously expecting people to speak so you only for a game isn't reason but you can go in and grab things flavor mm oh absolutely and in fact the actually one of the things that we ended up doing overtime was [noise] we would as players we would start work we tried to get into the mindset of so yummy and we would do that using the language in order to uh um as as as part of our guide and and yeah so which <unk> you know the um [noise] uh which pronouns got used was actually something that you know we think about we'd have to think about i mean who are we uh who are we talking to right right and and they have to uh actually you know you don't pay attention to these things and and some of this is that like for example there are some that that makes sense because if you're if someone is is not humid if there was one of the aliens species you know you might use um [noise] one of the uh uh one of the forums that that basically recognizes that [noise] <unk> ah but you know i mean perhaps it a bit more directly [noise] uh the uh the u. of polite anonymity you know if you can't figure out you know i mean i thought it was very interesting that included this but if you can't figure out what your precise social relationship is there's nothing wrong with referring to someone there's uh <unk> the you know which is to say i i recognize you as a person a respectable person i'm not quite sure what a relationship is right mhm uh and and that would get <unk> ah and and we would actually works at a little bit we would we would in fact i try to get phrases uh into use that we would be familiar with and and we used them [laughter] probably and much the same way as as american tourists going to other countries trying to fit in as much as they could with a language they were i'm familiar with [laughter] you know so using for instance like chicken [laughter] oh which say thank you you know that that <unk> that would be a common occurrence [noise] uh but the opportunities i mentioned before to use <unk> uh the u. of on splendor on wonder where prints are princess who was an air to the <unk> it's like um yeah we <unk> we occasionally did have interactions with imperial princes princes which case you better know exactly what you're <unk> it's gotta be because you get graded on it i mean uh [noise] it would affect <unk> yeah [laughter] right right so um so i guess encounters with like the emperor himself or not too frequent at all oh no yeah um the the one thing that i would did want to ask just as a <unk> uh uh uh simple like words question is so um the first person so you live around that no one in the game would ever use a course on boom which is reserved <unk> plus it leave for the emperor the emperor's right the the the question the the just the uh random question i had there was like you said it says the emperor's too is that um the the question was like ten women rule in their own right oh yum <unk> okay oh yeah so oh yes now they're <unk> [noise] uh the <unk> susie and <unk> uh a human sue her uh who she was related to direct <unk> ah [noise] ah oh and even a historically a clean they are any of the <unk> oh yes now there's quite a history of of uh powerful women in historically <unk> contemporary news times okay so it internally you can't have like <unk> it's really [noise] is that close uh closer loom only for an <unk> that's ruling or can it you know hit it be used by <unk> or <unk> [noise] uh yeah but that if it's not something you know then well i i can i can speculate on that slightly yeah because the the um <unk> have a custom that women <unk> died [noise] the next step <unk> is not chosen by prime a janitor okay uh but through a competition any formal competition which is held uh called the <unk> mhm [noise] and the <unk> choosing [noise] of emperors <unk> basically every extend to imperial prince and princess when the <unk> is the required by ah custom to declare if they are going to and say see stand for the goals or go for the goal but who's to say they were going to attempt to uh they're going to compete in choosing of emperors and ah they they don't have to they can <unk> they can stand back from it and say that i'm [noise] i'm perfectly happy the way i am i don't need to try for that uh and nothing start any less of them for having done so okay mhm ah they're still members of the talk of tommy clan there still is incredibly high social status and they still are recorded great you know respect and social stand but uh but then the ones that compete well the winter's the competition is uh coordinated as the next and purr and person the others are sacrifice to allah say then [noise] well you know hey you know yeah they're gathering you don't and you know uh i mean and it's considered very noble you know it's it's like this this is the thing this is the ultimate moment in life right [noise] and so then the <unk> is uh very carefully inducted into uh the imperial power so often so far and ah then <unk> lives the rest of their wife in splendid isolation attended only by the <unk> in silent uh and uh and very occasionally uh have concerts brought to them in the articles and tower mhm [noise] and so uh yeah it's it you know you're gonna spend the rest of your life in splendid isolation okay ah <unk> and it is it and as a result then uh yeah uh there's been only one [noise] only one who <unk> who ah broke the isolation of the golden tower historically uh-huh uh-huh i mean <unk> this this whole long history behind all this and like i said i feel like i've lived there so there's [noise] there's a way in which for me it's kind of like oh yes oh you're speaking of <unk> yes yeah right [laughter] ah [laughter] so so you're you know from your explanation what i gather is that basically this would only be for the ruling rapper impressed because just the the the method of selection and the the the isolation involve makes me think that you know it's only that specific person that gets special status than even necessarily you know wives or husbands don't even get that right that is so much right yeah now now mine she would there would be i could i mean if you'll notice for example the eye of the <unk> and the emperor emphasis close subtle mhm and so that there are circumstances where it's something you know uh [noise] i there are circumstances where you might find somebody using it who who might not be an <unk> but what they're saying by saying it is that they <unk> and uh they can only happen when there's a time and you know if they're not chosen to be <unk> that's because civil war is broken up uh-huh yeah but basically otherwise you know they they're in fear of punishment <unk> they tried to to use that right right but uh yeah language is war by other means mhm yeah well and and the thing about this is that [noise] yeah i i would suspect um you would find for example uh someone who i am sure there was a construction which which <unk> which professor workers not gone into here where someone who is the <unk> sort of an <unk> her <unk> has a particular way which they refer to themselves [noise] that is more than some do but not quite the same as close some right so that that there might be other ranks above that that like even i mean the idea of someone in the game getting into the imperial power so i think from from the way that you describe it is is a very small possibility maybe if you have like save the entire ah empire somehow but ah even then it <unk> the way this works is that the imperial power saddam <unk> is a mighty mountain in his in his cliffs face that uh uh by sex or rivers that come together at its base and that at the very top of all of a car there is the golden power the golden towers where the <unk> but the rest of the palace in the it <unk> it is the imperial court mhm and it is um you you <unk> it is where uh some imperial politicking takes place the rest of it takes place in d._c. mhm but the thing the thing about it is that yes you could be brought to the uh <unk> into the presence of the <unk> the hamper sits behind the genes screen in a small lantern and flipped and indicate the presence of the the imperial presence and all the time that this is going on that they're seniors who endlessly champ praises of the <unk> and this is going on in the background as someone might be presented to the <unk> uh and and so doing uh maybe granted a boon or safer uh if they're lucky ah if they're very unlucky you know to hear the sentence of whatever dire fate weights them mhm [noise] so [noise] so anyway that was that was a a longer digression than i expected [laughter] no it's all it's all very good stuff let's actually sort of move along then since we've gotten into talking about the world and [noise] everything uh we wanted to get into sort of what is the internal history of the <unk> language there's quite a bit of um i mentioned before that it's drive it's but it has and in world <unk> mhm um there's you know a lot of interesting stuff but ah goes in like he quotes basically fictional <unk> that are in the world which i really love that is 'cause they he even like disagrees with them some silly prescription this in in the <unk> but um [laughter] uh what is generally the history of so yummy and related languages <unk> well the <unk> is one of the members of the <unk> language group which derives from the previous language <unk> which uh was the language spoken uh in what <unk> honey and the other empires sense being sort of the golden age of taco bell [noise] that ah <unk> the realm of the priest kings stretch for thousands of miles thousands tom [noise] and um [noise] uh <unk> on yahoo fell uh due to any <unk> which are resulted in the capital of the priest kings being uh suffering an earthquake then sinking into this see [noise] uh and this lead to a period and says started an indirect them [noise] ah and out of that arose five different empires uh and uh each one of those ah has the language that is more or less related to the others uh <unk> is the one that is uh the <unk> not too surprised when you think of themselves as being the the closest <unk> descendants of the yankees and the alley mm uh the <unk> and the cellar johnny and live johnny <unk> we'd probably all dispute that [laughter] uh [noise] but uh as languages go linguistically historically within the world uh there was ah <unk> which was then followed by classical <unk> uh which bears or relationship to modern <unk> <unk> we're not on like cold english to english <unk> ah i i hesitate to be too precise about that uh it is not it is not easily understood by anyone in the in the modern day of the of the world ah and classical <unk> ah developed over time uh into modern <unk> and uh so yeah i mean the <unk> i mean take the attitude that the language it's important to get it right um it's a cultural values so they're they're they're picky about that [noise] and there are some dialects that you find in different parts of <unk> you'll find did the island <unk> to the south west um [noise] the er the island of raw fried johnny has somewhat different construction to uh some words and uh to uh grammatical structure uh similar sorts of things happened on the borders of the empire near uh in the the chalk in protectorate or off in the city of so caught us [noise] ones to the west the others to the east and in each case they weren't there there's more borrowing of words for <unk> and from some a lot of johnny <unk> but i mean i mean <unk> it's the sort of thing that you would expect that would take place in a real world which is to say the languages themselves very uh somewhat from place to place simply because of the interactions of culture in society so uh i i don't know if i've i've given the the full history there on that but that that's the the sort of in world history of it so that's <unk> that's that's that's really interesting thing to to hear that so uh do in in games did you ever sort of interact with the other empires oh yeah mhm have campaigns were there was a war between two empires or oh yeah things like that [laughter] yeah there is uh one of the major aspects of professor burgers campaign from the very beginning was the conflict between <unk> and yom core mhm and um it it's funny um the <unk> tend to think of the <unk> as having a rather ah somewhat um harsh language um it's it's all short words and very um [noise] um sort of consummate driven [noise] um [noise] and they end up that the <unk> are you know think of the think of <unk> as being an an <unk> an overly elaborate language [laughter] uh uh you know and and then you know other other comparisons er the michelob yeah they tend to think that the <unk> aren't you know of course they the the the <unk> noble but they don't really have it exactly the way it should be because of course the buckles yeah they think that their way of looking at the world and speaking is correct the languages are somewhat similar to one another and uses similar script system but they <unk> they're the societies are different [noise] uh and and so on i mean <unk> each one of the the five empires has both it's idealized depiction of itself and somewhat stereotypical view of the other four right and then you would expect as you would expect it you know and that shows up in and language interaction um [noise] there's actually a rather interesting article which i will see if i can make available um professor parker wrote this from the perspective of a <unk> scholar writing about how the <unk> approach theology uh-huh [laughter] and it's it it is one side comment after another of this <unk> scholar saying well he <unk> he called us god by this name but we know that that's wrong and that the real they've got this cat [laughter] you know [laughter] and yeah i <unk> think this but that's wrong and we know better and as we do here we'll go out yeah we you know and and those <unk> do at this other way but they're wrong too you know so uh it's it's it's a very it's it's one of the few places where i think professor burger indulge that sense of [noise] kind of cultural uh subjectivity ah that that uh he suggests that different points of the language but you know doesn't come uh cross quite as you know readily unless you actually had the interaction that is that is uh uh fun fun thing to think of out of the you know oh well if this was a real world than these people have different attitudes about each other's cultures in languages so it makes perfect sense to make the that uh that idea of okay here is what the uh what the uh [noise] uh i i will not remember the names of the <unk> <unk> <unk> or what ever think of this <unk> donny <unk> hey that was really good and ah and ah you know they they'll all have their own ideas about each other [noise] um that's definitely a good thing i think that that you see a lot of that depths of world building in the language document itself in that again as i said he quotes uh so johnny <unk> and ah some time and uh you know one time he says that well actually the <unk> are wrong they ah they they uh oversimplified the way their language works and this one place uh there's and so and he you know is talking about you know also the the differences between the different languages in that document i haven't actually i have all the <unk> for all of languages but i haven't read the other ones i focus mainly on the <unk> language um by the way there is the resources for <unk> itself or that two volume set and victory you actually wrote the toll yummy primer right oh no no no that was not me that was curtis curtis scott okay i thought your name was on it i may i believe that i i <unk> that and and made it available ah fortunately is curtis curtis is no longer with us either which is unfortunate he's uh he was quite the scholar if there was anybody who was an expert in <unk> besides professor barker it would've been curtis scott i'm unfortunately both he other professor no longer with us right but uh that is actually more of a teaching document if you people wanted to actually learn so young yeah and and we encourage you [laughter] there's also so yummy [noise] yes uh which uh my friend malcolm he says one of the consistent posters too and helps ron [noise] ah and ah um [noise] uh oh goodness um let's see here in addition to that someone who's been working very hard on the <unk> or <unk> uh gray richardson and ah yeah i'm i encourage everyone to be a part of that it's the the <unk> language uh group on face book has um actually it's uh it is a section other <unk> document uh professor barker had created many years ago uh this is um [noise] a land grant and the karen on protectorate if i recall correctly [noise] odd to [noise] the <unk> family uh and uh the reason why you know this is because it was something that he had put together as uh something related to some of the pro too gaming role playing that he had done with other grad students when he was at berkeley one of those graduate students was uh at the time was bill ship play mhm and so that <unk> poly [laughter] okay good yeah [noise] yeah the little the little yes little easter eggs where people oh <unk> oh george listed some fun have you there i wanted to talk about but other than that i don't know there's much to say we skipped over details of the grammar in favor of talking about how it's used in the game i think that's fine um <unk> pretty good there's lots of details <unk> have said um lots of subtle things no crazy morphology and and we know that the grammar is not available for free but it's very very reasonable reply price and i think it i think it's a really good example of how to write a grammar for a language is in a con world that you <unk> if you want to go into like all this depths of like so full use of language and so yeah um uh but yeah other than what we've covered i think uh i've covered um uh most of the things that i i i uh wanted to cover so yeah have have at your your interesting lexical items there so i just went travelling to the dictionary um one thing to note and from previous conversation victors i know that it mattered in game is there are lots of words for in the world thing <unk> animals plant money <unk> mood food yeah well <unk> <unk> <unk> names of dishes [noise] whether or not this cat <unk> is that a whole um [laughter] guess what questions do you have about that you tell a story about you know him running a game and it hurt and he's like oh what did you eat [laughter] yeah uh-huh oh yeah [noise] professor parker made a point of encouraging players and not to <unk> uh to uh pay attention to the background of the world and see how the um in this particular case the party of player characters this was very early on in my gaming there [noise] i had been sailing up the mississippi river from as i mentioned before from the city <unk> they were on their way to <unk> and they had stopped in the river ports of saddam and this anonymous awfully whole town actually it's it's a fairly <unk> it's a fairly big city but it it goes up [noise] uh it's on the west bank assume or whatever and there's a avenue that goes pretty much from the <unk> all the way up to the <unk> uh uh to the west in in higher elevations worthy noble clams have they're clean houses [noise] and so you know that it that could have been yet but instead yes the player churches what what what times that show um it's ah getting on towards evening well i guess we'll have dinner and yes yes so what you going to eat and people began to realize the players began to realize that phil wanted them to like be specific about it right and he was going to give them exactly what they asked for it if they couldn't figure it out well that was too <unk> well that was rather unfortunate that wasn't that [noise] uh and i proceeded to quickly look look things up and i said uh is is there any vendors <unk> ah in this case could could we say out uh uh and fill looked at me and said oh meat patties yes yes there are no they're just happens to be a vendor you know a cart with spiced meat patties resell [noise] and you know suddenly everyone was you know having that [laughter] uh [laughter] but i mean you know <unk> there's there was enough references and in game materials for people to realize that if they wanted they have a <unk> that that would be probably pretty tasty but nobody should be going out looking for you know the uh the innards of the hockey in uh a rather nasty uh waterborne creature mm okay but and and some of this would get um like for example um [noise] like denied green <unk> is the word that's a <unk> how to use for the green that they grow and you know they'll turn into you know various forms of flat bread [noise] um [noise] and that's distinct from what we would think of his wheat <unk> word for that this guy in [noise] and so but using a word like you know we're we're we're gonna get some <unk> nah green bread was a way that people could both have the language in use but no from context what they were saying right right <unk> sugar was another one you know which <unk> sugar made from the the uh uh the uh insects that uh provide okay strict excellent yeah [laughter] yeah so there's lots of enrolled vocabulary you know it's not just a list of your basic stuff it's all sorts of games and stuff but i found a few that i found amusing because they really didn't think anything um or weren't using it that way um <unk> which needs to <unk> energy old which seems useful and that sort of thing yes has does uh nashville which means to practice neck <unk> yeah [noise] mhm um i ah [noise] <unk> such a negative word [laughter] <unk> the um [noise] i love this word because it reminds me of reading america greek um uh <unk> which is of embraced which is one of those pieces of it <unk> and evil or earlier armor that you only know about issue <unk> sorts of games you know or have red homer in the armor [noise] more <unk> there is that word um <unk> which means that a phobia [noise] mm mhm oh no way that needed and he had it for more fun in world um <unk> which is a gambling games like sticks which one which one did you have to <unk> uh <unk> uh <unk> uh the there's a slight there was a bit more of an edge to that e. <unk> oh <unk> okay [noise] um so that the gambling games um and i just was reading amused by that were <unk> you know which doesn't seem like it does right so we're <unk> um which is related to that works for um mountain obviously but the verb in this case sure go which means to boil over or spot uh-huh no mountains or or a volcano boiling over mountain which is an image i like very much [noise] um i just find it you know that that would suggest that the the originator of that word was close enough to see it happen but far enough away to not <unk> yes right [laughter] you're not <unk> [laughter] that's right yeah no that was just you know a collection of stuff and i i just didn't even bother to make a list of all of them any plants animals and <unk> and so on and so forth oh are you could go crazy with uh [noise] uh well yeah a couple of other i mean there's actually a couple of ah verbs here that are relate to some of the things that um [noise] there's actually a borrow word here that i i <unk> i'll i'll notes here i'm just looking at <unk> at one of the <unk> language um there's a word for it to wing which is now if you're using it if it <unk> it too <unk> too is these shell okay but if you're referring to the specific style of tattooing that's used by this other empire <unk> mm empire <unk> they're actually borrowing <unk> worked for that it's all done <unk> yes <unk> it's an interesting <unk> tattooing they would refer tunes and music [laughter] that's and that's that's a very that's that's that's a that's a very interesting little tidbit then i can see where he got that idea for that does that actually happens fairly often naturally in uh in natural language is where the two cultures really do have you know words for the same thing it's not like they it's not like um they encountered it from each other but the specific practice of it in another culture is referred to buy the the word in that culture right yeah mhm and use <unk> and speaking about energy boats and such like uh the verb to tell a can these something [laughter] <unk> <unk> <unk> if i i i'm having difficulty with my mom would use [noise] ah or televise too <unk> yes fucking <unk> uh-huh you know yes and how often would you have an opportunity to use it for like only <unk> [noise] <unk> um what was going to say something that occurred to me the dictionary comes in an english so yummy apart and <unk> they told you i need to english part mhm is organized according to the native ordering of yes so that makes it fun two years oh absolutely [laughter] and and and yeah so i mean this was also yet another way the professor burger really wanted people to get into understanding reconstructive language was to say well this is how they think about how the sounds go so they are you know or you know and and he <unk> almost everything he did around this was was a way to invite you to get into it more deeply no so whether it was using where it's like <unk> you know what you say you know uh hello uh or um [noise] uh you know chicken [laughter] thank you i mean those are that's nice you know it's sprays book level similarity but even things like how to find the thing <unk> and where to look at what to say and <unk> thinking about how sad 'cause the phrase book that's at the end of the first <unk> has got some just utterly utterly great stuff in it oh yeah yeah and and the phrase book section it's uh you know we're we're coming up to the border crossing the border chapter wishes to see you can't he'd be bribed yes he can get <unk> [laughter] [noise] [laughter] my friend in need of a priest of sort of cool yes okay it <unk> seems like [laughter] question [laughter] ah anyway [laughter] um [noise] i think that's a good place to stop talking you know mentioned how important it was or or so people yeah maybe yeah obviously was not encouraging people to master the language necessarily to use it as an avenue to understand the world that they were inheriting drinking played better [laughter] [noise] oh i i think phil would have like nothing better than if somebody had come back and had been speaking <unk> the entire time [noise] i i think he i think he would have been somewhat taken aback by it but i think he would've liked it a great deal chattering how it was the other people to learn their language but in terms of reasonable expect [laughter] look i'm going to do that but that is that is an interesting um [noise] it's uh uh a little bit of an interesting idea of you know you're the interesting thing to to think about when you're when if uh people are doing these sort of role playing games 'cause you know if you have a small group of friends that are doing a role playing game the game is tailored to you know what the interests of the players are so for most groups i don't think learning in entire new language would be like nothing there would be into but might get a bunch of <unk> together and they might actually be into actually like learning so young [laughter] sure but uh anyway yeah i think that's a really good place to wrapping up do either of you guys have any sort of final notes before we and the show i have just one and that is for people interested in <unk> in general [noise] simply go too w._w._w. dot <unk> dot com and taco bell is spelled p. e. k. u. m. e. l. dot com yeah i will um link to that <unk> it's too so um [noise] the <unk> and also a drive through r._p._g. page where you can buy all of the language materials not just for <unk> for things when you ali and all the other languages [noise] we haven't talked at all of us is which is a language spoken by six to mention demons or to need to use these magic [laughter] gave me in a future episodes [laughter] in the future episodes we come back and talk about forever since [noise] anyway [noise] ah hi will be seen guys [noise] joe [noise] thank you [noise] and i'm going to say happy on my [noise] thank you for listening coupon you could find our archives of showing of pass time lying or not [noise] support us on patriotic patriotic dot com slash on line [noise] you can also find as fond face book quarter and <unk> and if you would like to hear your online featured on the top of the show [noise] you could look at our church has the trunk or what you translate how to spend [noise] <unk> basically provided by the language creation society and our music is by no the vice [noise]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. language
  5. linguistics
  6. RPG
  7. Tékumel
  8. Tsolyáni

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 115 Tsolyáni (last edited 2017-09-10 02:27:39 by TranscriBot)