Conlangery #119: Paramount v Axanar

Conlangery #119: Paramount v Axanar

Published: Tue, 03 May 2016 05:48:41 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 [noise] [noise] <unk> online or the cats but destructed languages and people <unk> ah with me over and california is by [noise] uh and over in you're in the netherlands right i am i am uh i'm in amsterdam is um <unk> hi i'm actually broadcasting from a brothel again in amsterdam right now [laughter] i'm actually on this so uh we're doing a very special episode today uh we have my on my team is uh representing the l. c. s. currently in um uh mark mark mark sorry mark is currently representing yes yes uh for an amicus brief that we filed in paramount versus action are and um i wanna jump and mark doesn't have a lot of time so i want to jump to you actually can you actually explain first of all all what this case was about and what our role isn't it [noise] [noise] right well in most cases uh what you have is you have a plane offended offended and those two parties are what's called adversaries so when the adversary system the two of them slug it out and at the end the er the judge or the jury makes a decision but there are ways that third parties can get involved in law suits now there's one way you can do which is a motion to intervene but that means that you have an actual material interest in the outcome [noise] that didn't exactly fit for us uh so what did fit was to file and <unk> <unk> just means friend uh in latin and so we finally friend of the court breeze in other words saying we have something interesting to say that we think will assist the court in making it's decision about an issue so we <unk> for that and that's what we did here and we we did that on a very narrow issue in that case because ah we're really not taking a position on the can you still hear me they're not really taking a position [noise] when it comes to the underlying lawsuit we're taking it only on whether copyright law will protect or <unk> well in any way protect or restrict others from using the created language with laying on okay and naturally we're taking the position no way jose right [laughter] [noise] so we uh we we have asked the court for the right to uh to participate with the court is not obliged to grant um in fact it but it but at this point i almost don't mind one way or the other strategically if they do of course the the best possible outcome would be that uh they would accept the briefing at the brief would be persuasive on this issue but remember it's it's probably not going to change the outcome of the case if i had the handicapped this case i would say paramount is uh paramount is probably somewhere around forty five to one odds too when um unless there's something really screw you about the rest of the fact that i haven't delved into and and honestly i haven't i i don't have the time to dig into every single uh <unk> any of this uh took a lot of time to write the breeze that we have [noise] yes so just just to break in here uh we so i'm i'm saying there's as vice president of the <unk> we is i'd be also yes uh not separate separate from hungary um [noise] is um is only concerned about the claims about playing on um the cleveland language correct so um and so like you're you're talking about whether paramount window whole chase but that [noise] we're not really worried about all the rest of that stuff [noise] correct i mean we're we're not we're not in a place to do that um and there may be other you know there <unk> when we're not in a place to do that but to you know i'm a i'm a little bit surprised that uh paramount has decided to doubled down on this issue 'cause you know what i found interesting about the case and the reason that i was uh i i <unk> i yelled at resenting yes when i was asked to do this is the interested in the intersection of intellectual property law and free expression um [noise] i'm very interested in fair use issues uh you know i'm very interested in the limitations of intellectual property right because if you take it too it's for this extent and when you look at some people who have commented on this case so far and you know and i taught sold all even guys don't just don't read the comments they're never a good place but [laughter] i know it's i know what to resist a boy and uh and there's i have seen some people who have things to say like well <unk> created it so why shouldn't they benefit from the labor you know from their labor and that is a very maximum louis way of looking at it and the other way of looking at it is uh you know you can think about uh how many disney movies would not exist if they hadn't built on the shoulders of fireworks [noise] uh you know how how many of those movies are actually the original or are they old stories and really that is how culture usually develops i feel like modern copyright law as uh put <unk> kind of a stick in the gears there right this is a really unique and and i mean all in favor of beating the hell out of somebody who actually infringes on copyright but i just think that determination of what is protected should be more narrow now if somebody makes use of an element like this you know if they were taking lines of dialogue [noise] out of the star trek movie even even in playing on then i would see that there's a copyright problem you can't just rip off portions they rip off a little bit of it the quotes somebody but you know this is a whole new situation you've actually got a created language that took off like crazy i mean how many people actually speak the language i'm not sure but i do know that there are people who you know there's at least one guy who raised his kid to speak it that it seems like everytime you do a google search you find another couple that decided to get married and going on and i i i just there are three minutes of my life that i will never get back that i just spent watching uh a parody of gang style including on [laughter] called cleaning on style and <unk> <unk> <unk> i am now going to wake up in the middle of the night i had that stuck in my head i [laughter] [laughter] i'm never going to get it out either it's like you know fifteen years or twenty years ago i was a deck hand on a boat in alaska and the guy next to me saying all she wants as another baby all summer long on the deck of the boat and it never got out but he worked for months to get that in there you just achieve what he achieved in months with one link to a new to video <unk> you are [laughter] [laughter] yeah so um [laughter] only that were committed to the uh so <unk> i think maybe you can help us out and get us a little bit of <unk> background and i think uh mark you're gonna be a hunting out on us in a little and and just a few minutes right you have to i'm sorry i just i i made some commitments i'm i'm actually than uh visiting a client every twenty four hours for the past ten days all the crowds you're up yeah so um yeah so uh yeah um will you you you just drop out whenever you need me too um but uh <unk> why don't you um uh talk to us um a little bit about the background um we're trying to get ah <unk> your <unk> on on sheer we'll see if we can get uh him on the line but uh <unk> why don't we talk a little bit about the background you know historically what how um <unk> come to the position that it has and uh sort of where this debate comes from [noise] sure so um it's been kind of an issue on the list for years and years and years where people have been talking about well to what extent and you copyright a language to what extent copyright or maybe happen even apply uh to con lying or scriptures that you wrote and a con line what can you do about it someone had oh they broke your language and i just like reported that um and also just from eating out about the hypothetical because realistically speaking it's only very very recently guy yeah an i._t. lie to touch um because only recently have we had professional calmly thing like with david um and uh rocky [noise] um so it's more of a question um you know how how would the way out in theory um the thing is except for this one case with low blonde than most one there's not a whole lot of case law so it's mostly theoretical [noise] yeah i mean i i would agree it's it's a and i and i think you know one thing i i just as to launder it in the room uh well i know i know i'm not the only one but i'm the only i think [laughter] <unk> radius law or [laughter] i would say that <unk> <unk> mark is the is the lawyer if your sides a little bit of a no no no stuff i'll tell you that but the uh the issue i bike or look at the at the difference you know i i've been debating whether or not this is different uh if it's any <unk> or if it's just playing on and i've i've really personally i've only uh examined it from the standpoint of the case that we are in because it might be <unk> we'd dig a little deeper i'm might agree that a con lang ah can be copyrighted but this one if anything has completely broken the bounds of copyright because when there are people engaging <unk> they're taking it and using it more as a process then it was at work [noise] i think that's something new but that's something new in a way that it has never really been confronted and the law before that's really fun part about the common law you know i had a discussion about this at uh uh with uh with a lawyer in paris and he's he's single but doesn't fit the code or not and i'm like no that's the great thing about common law is it's it's made from the ground up uh it it can be we can have this kind of a theoretical argument and the judge is going to just you know in some way pull it out of thin air if he has two was the lawyer and harris civil law yes so yeah i went there you know and he he said this is what i love about american lawyers you guys are also creative because of this common law influence and i hadn't thought of it that way but [noise] um yeah this is not even conceivable to them it might be worth mentioning to the audience the difference between comedy on <unk> common complicated but it's simple version is in common law countries which is basically the u._k. and everything the u._k. used [noise] are currently on including the u._s. uh court [noise] make common law and buy rendering decision or have presidential value and the other or try to abide by those decisions as well as what [noise] the statute lord of the regulation side whereas in a civil war what country they're just basically all the rest of the world and also louisiana some or because of their from the french [laughter] um [laughter] [laughter] and come back right um their uh their civil law country or not so much based on judicial precedent uh just trying to interpret the statue um more directly marty you can feel free to crack me up without a mail from ireland inaccurate [noise] that's <unk> yeah um but we get in um i i think we've gotten uh chris stuff onto the line so chris off you can say hi i'm not sure as you can hear me can you hear me now perfect yeah we've been hearing about that okay so we got crushed off in i think my <unk> my marketers almost uh almost ready to go but um [noise] so yeah that's that's that's the interesting thing and a part of what the u._s. is trying to do here um is use this case it uh you know get involved in this case in order to sort of set the precedent because the position of the u._s. has been uh based on confrontation with um denton is that you can't really copyright <unk> you can copyright right so uh you can or happy right um works that are written in the car on line and you can copyright grammar materials dictionaries but the language itself we don't think you can really ah copyright <unk> uh an accurate exactly yeah [noise] so uh about a year ago um approached ah a friend of mine works for dungeons and also um um pro bono legal work for me is uh before um 'cause see if we could maybe get um formal legal memorandum to try to clarify these issues that have been going around in the community for years [noise] um and he works for them and um well work he recently left um but and he said yeah um so we got this nice uh or mole memorandum uh which is on uh on the online website ah and none of the uh the language creation conference and it goes into point by plane copyright trademarks ah pat's and and sort of ancillary things like moral rights which don't really exist in the u. s. outside of this one <unk> which doesn't really apply [noise] um and sort of a couple [noise] i mean related thing like right on the publicity because they just sort of laid out what is the question what what can we see from what we and then from that [noise] we have this case presented where crystal [noise] notice that um <unk> claiming that they own the entire of language uh clint on uh so i got in touch with mark ah 'cause i figured this might be dally um [noise] um yeah um in <unk> i think you said you had an uh a hard out at um at uh eight thirty your time right so um <unk> <unk> um do you have any last words you wanna share before you leave <unk> in a minute yeah i mean look i i can i can i can hit snooze here for a few minutes if you want if you are not going to lead high dry here so uh yeah i you know the only thing i am in with a thought i have on this just from a legal theory point of view is that it seems like the better the <unk> the less copyright herbal it would be [laughter] you know if it'll really crappy job with one let's say one that had only ten words you know and and one tense and you and you didn't really you didn't really do all the homework it would seem to be more copyright above but one that is more functional more able to function right ah would <unk> would seem to be more of a process and bus not affected by copyright that's because of the utility creativity division yeah and then you know it's a it's a fascinating issue because it's it's like [noise] in what other universe would we have this as an issue right uh you know when it was uh i mean even i'd say it comes it comes to mind is anthony purchases use of the <unk> in a clockwork orange but that's not really a con lying i mean that's uh that there's a <unk> a few hundred words at the end of a clockwork orange and everybody that reads a book eventually gets to learn it and how many times do you hear people uh you know i don't know <unk> maybe it's my group of friends we still tend to use a clockwork orange <unk> words from time to time and if you know russian [noise] <unk> yeah or or george orwell uh you know george orwell new speak you know new speak is not really a full <unk> but you can say double plus good who are double plus on good to somebody and they immediately know not only what you mean at the time but you know how <unk> cultural baggage comes from what you're saying so in this situation it's just it's completely you know it is it has the power of the lunatic nerd here that has unleashed uh i feel like uh [noise] it's just unleash something that even if you could bound to <unk> in copyright law i think <unk> is something of its own and and i don't you know and and what's theory do i ride do i laid out on let's say it was copyright about how can copyright deep broken simply by people using something in a way that no one ever expected they would uh there is no theoretical background for it is it is the complete vacuum of on shortage space and that's where you know <unk> exactly right would this be up my alley like no good answer in between two goliath said and you know you you might get last it left out of court uh completely [noise] sounds perfect to me and it the first amendment issue and it's a matter of first impression [laughter] i mean i had i had no idea how this thing was going to go you know i mean i thought we we could very easily be under a pile of rocks right now um in fact i was somewhat shot [laughter] [noise] you know at at all the attention that it got but when i you know when i <unk> when we were putting the brief together the one thing that i absolutely insisted upon an and i and you know and i i had a debate at my office about this this it there is absolutely no way we are filing this brief without without certain portions of it written inkling on which was really amazed by the way yeah it's kind of a master touch uh i i thought that was that was a very smart decision and incidentally mark who did the calling on us they wasn't it was a joy it was it was a <unk> we we had you know we were working up it with um with being translate but then of course you know you you got to work with your with your with what you have we [noise] we had some people who spoke fluent cling on who we just we made the call that we thought we had the going on right enough and i said we've got to get this thing filed now um and now they're coming back to me yelling at me that my <unk> going on it's not exactly right and i should've use different episode references and and nothing <unk> any happier than fact some blogger wrote a full paragraph on how what what i came up with as what uh clinging on wouldn't use for intellectual property law uh lewis completely wrong and actually a really good post yeah but he's but he's you know this is you know him saying that i probably have the <unk> the grammar wrong and i and i have the emotion and it wrong right you can't you can't file corrections right so [laughter] you can and i was thinking maybe a one page ah you know instruction to the court that i apologize at my my <unk> is at and you know at an u. a. one level at best um you know what i mean i'm not rank you have twenty six okay hold on [noise] yeah well <unk> what he would just <unk> [laughter] i notice that a rat i you know and and write and then thinking about this shit i ever think the day as i was sitting there filling in those bubbles to take the else that um one day i will be trying to figure out what is the proper procedure <unk> motion for an advocate to <unk> to leave to file an abacus brief because i got my <unk> grammar wrong okay um i'm i'm one of <unk> on this er i said that this was actually um your idea initially to get into this case right [noise] well i i don't i don't know if it was actually my idea but i think i did <unk> <unk> that's a dream or why wasn't this case and i did say is there something that we can do like you've been working you inside have both been working with mark to get this uh thing put together what what are your thoughts about ah the the reaction and what what not where i must say the reaction completely surprise me uh <unk> how the world to me and <unk> that's <unk> uh uh uh not to press coverage and i felt the way i see in march before or what it's worth [laughter] i i do roughly what to expect people to do what you would accept those <unk> <unk> no dated peterson [noise] uh so i i feel it's uh i didn't think that would be that much coverage it's really it's really it took me by surprise and that was a surprise that's awesome how uh positive the coverage was i <unk> i wasn't expecting more of a backlash from the uh right on the idea that <unk> in general <unk> but it seems like a lot of people are agreeing including uh bark i think you've mentioned that uh a lot of lawyers are agreeing with our position right yeah <unk> that's <unk> that's millions she has not back i'm getting and but uh i can't hear mark and <unk> you know why does it matter but if you put the wisdom of crowds together usually you come to the right to answer [noise] and it it seems like the i. p. bar is on our side yeah and and i myself i i was in additionally just surprised at how how many people found this interesting you know i'm uh i mean i write stuff like this all the time and uh the the last time i got some attention like this was in my <unk> so much about that a star trek too because it it was the one time in my career i've been able to fight to mr spock ate my balls and it actually makes sense [laughter] okay i was kinda surprised you found that play patients to um what what was that um <unk> ah thomas and then uh where he said he actually sat in an opinion on has no word <unk> yes [laughter] <unk> malaria hey guys my connection is degrading so i think i'm going to drop off now and go right all right that's fine ah assign chris often i will keep on this conversation but uh alright gentleman take care and uh will uh will be until i got a son and thanks for your and your incite mark okay i'm not related by <unk> <unk> okay i need to or <unk> [laughter] very difficult to pronounce things including on cats in africa [noise] uh so okay so we've got uh so uh mark just left us sign crust off you're still here um you know some of the press reaction has been good there are a few things that um are uh you know we have a few journalists who are a little bit confused about things but uh generally we have a lot of positive reactions right [noise] [noise] oh what a trip uh uh uh dealt with some uh some cases [noise] in my work with make your laws where um there were a couple of things i got a lot of attention [noise] and uh amount to which the press has all kinds of things we're right ah in this case actually really good [noise] um there's a few things that they don't quite uh all get correct like there's some that think that the <unk> in a group of <unk> or [noise] that were suing paramount or um that the case 'cause it's just about the clean on language thing when it's actually gotten this huge huge list of other infringement mountain climbing but the fundamentals for the actual essence of the argument about why uh <unk> should not the copyright <unk> they've all been britain getting pretty much spot on and uh i think is very important part and i think that's actually really um good considering that it's kind of um really weird legal issue um i agree um i <unk> i'm <unk> i'm not seeing but or uh uh uh <unk> studying group or mental <unk> let me see <unk> we are not stop tricks fans at least i er er i am not what <unk> well i mean not not to find i think our audience <unk> there there may be members who are truck i i think our audience knows what the <unk> is uh but yeah definitely there are some uh some uh i think a lot of that is headline writing and such people just sort of try to say oh you'd star trek friends are saying that uh but uh [noise] a lot of it is also just like confusion like the the guy who wrote the vice [noise] uh i got in touch with her correction um initially describe else yes online [noise] uh hi correct let them know that no actually kind of promote the crap and calmly in itself we were the ones who make the language is uh not the ones that other people make [laughter] um no it's a hard one for most people because most people don't think oh you can make a language i'm not like it's not a thing for just the crazy few people who are super amazing at it um but there's actually improve devoted to promoting that kraft unfairness that's not something that most people would dump too and i think actually speak to the evolution of crafts and sort of popular understanding um calling and just in the last few years especially with uh david peterson's work um that a lot of the <unk> actually did get that right when they did understand a word that right online games um that's something you wouldn't have seen like a decade ago [noise] five years ago i think the press would up being a difference if this guy who's case has already come up and we just bought <unk> right <unk> people are a little bit more savvy and uh to me <unk> you know for someone out on the outside i can see that uh some people who are promoting the ah creation of <unk> things that are legal position would be on for someone who's who's promoting the craft if if they didn't know everything about us because [noise] um you expect artists to want to be able to protect our work and i think it <unk> it was kind of language we do kind of want to be able to protect our work but uh <unk> yes as i understand that as we have you know looked at this we found that really the um particularly copyright but other uh i._p. laws to at least in the u. s. are not that useful for protecting <unk> or <unk> i think it's more accurate they go too far right like if we hadn't moral right as in you that would probably be a pretty good but copyright means you have total control of everything you could possibly kind of language that's going way too <unk> i would like to have something i also think that you actually protecting language creates us because each uh it was a song that's the <unk> right season my fear is what they are at school the law of understanding cook sick when she's that you have to to to look at what would that mean when you're working corporate degenerate means <unk> also right it was that means for language and you could you cook your rights than uh grandma structure issue the issue or read somebody <unk> some things that somebody did end up going i think oh that's neat uh she should let you tried <unk> infringing then that's <unk> yeah <unk> <unk> <unk> and that's <unk> that's would be <unk> very best consequences for the curling crushed incest right and this contest could uh come under litigation uh a little bit because um you know we probably wouldn't be too much danger because we're doing commentary and stuff but i have had um [noise] uh i've had people send me um greetings in crime yeah and you know the token estate has a lot of lawyers i think i actually have <unk> on my little girl written in <unk> so you know that's that's that's a separate thing from what could happen to con language now with your talk i knew if you're talking about <unk> okay if you're trying to <unk> if you try to say that okay her medical structures copyrighted and then you have another <unk> it's not even that it would necessarily they would necessarily fail but it's just like another avenue it's an avenue where individual con language could end up being sued and whether whether or not the argument would be valid is is another issue entirely it's just you know being sued and the first place is a big problem whether or not the case is good i mean let's be realistic [noise] if someone <unk> uh like a nasty gram from paramount or from the token a state uh hang stop doing this or we maybe we'll do you what can happen or if they're going to stop [noise] you know they don't have a lawyer like mark [laughter] to protect them um so that's part of why we're doing [noise] try to set a precedent so that it doesn't it's not something that people have to defend against in the future uh there's arguments you can make that for instance uh with with you on the angry agrees on ya that even if that were copyrighted then you're right it would be an engaging hairy you [noise] ah the kind of see her using snippets for criticism and academic audience <unk> retirement <unk> called enough permanent [laughter] uh you have to it's something where they do the copyright [laughter] and you say okay yes you are on the copyright and normally i wouldn't be allowed to do this i am allowed to do this and this circumstance because i had this <unk> used [noise] rides were saying you don't even have so you can claim anything right and the the the thing about for uses yes it's a defense which means that i would have to like bring that up as a defense in court against a lot of uh uh scary illegally legal machinery that those the states can can leverage so that's you know that's what i mean by it opens up opportunities for people to sue or like you know if someone creates a con laying andes borrowing words from <unk> from playing on and such you know you could say okay if this actually what the court it probably wouldn't get you would probably you'd probably be able to use for uses a defense but most con layers don't have the resources to go up against term out or the token estate or all those people [laughter] yeah yeah <unk> you were about to say something then i think i cut you off yeah no that's basically that's exactly what they were saying especially in the in the u._s. uh the court system <unk> dirty but skewed towards people who have a lot of money and uh [laughter] pretty girls that i think we're not that so i think but uh if we could get the precedent if we could make it uh uh uh <unk> that's <unk> first see or the um uh by themselves <unk> copyright did that would be a huge wins chocolate it against them says whether whether they realize he'd go nuts it means that they <unk> they lose <unk> they never had a way to control their alterations but at least they can't be sued for their own creation and it's not that you can't control for instance your description like someone can't rip off gung cat is it called web site and good many posts the website and flap their name on that would be clearly copyright violation right he wrote but they can certainly right news sentences in <unk> ah and that's protected or they could make a spin off version or john died in like fail to maintain its grammar very well he's attacked went down or something could publish a new thing that re described it [noise] um [noise] in right i think throughout the whole thing we've always said that you know a grammar is a fixed work that's clearly under copyright but like the grammar description document [noise] the the dictionary it's a little iffy 'cause there's a question of um uh there's some some things that are totally predicted with um you know the the arrangement and the the um the individual definitions can be protected but maybe not if there's not many other ways to say it um [noise] yeah that's like if there is creativity in [noise] how you describe the definition of a word um like for instance <unk> uh if you look up entry or language for instance in a list of bunch of sensors that word has but then it'll described a son who's in a <unk> somebody put some <unk> and creativity that goes into that and you could describe it in a different way so oh he has copyright uh no way they <unk> the definition of the one language they do not have copyright um but definitions like like like if someone can describe the same definition a different way then that's fine and that's how natural language dictionaries work and there's no reason to <unk> should be any different [noise] i want to um talk a little bit about the the the moral rights thing because that's i know it gets a little bit of murky it doesn't figure into u._s. law very much but over um over in europe as like especially in france you have moral rights and it's there's there's more of a strict idea of uh an artist kim playing ken ken uh require attribute right uh i can talk about <unk> i'm i'm not completely up to date squeeze in <unk> in <unk> but i know that <unk> it's it's <unk> it's <unk> it's not <unk> when you create some <unk> some things you have a basic <unk> uh more right to <unk> er er recognize as it creates it it means two main things is indeed the rights of a tradition boats also and they'll go ride is dots people are not allowed to use your permission to make you look bad basically and that can be anywhere but that can be uh for instance uh <unk> <unk> in a way that it makes you sound different than uh than what you what you meant to uh basically uh catching up quotes mhm uh in a way that they make you sound like you're saying the opposite of what you meant this kind of thing i'm not completely up to date on the web but these <unk> <unk> that's <unk> other what's ah what's u._s. <unk> so if you have these scandals <unk> think that's wrong nuts cooked or write it 'cause that's that there's a thing that's <unk> um um <unk> close to ah u._s. <unk> different <unk> so i'm not sure how uh different also right what's <unk> ah <unk> in in in europe how no there's also right these <unk> <unk> you're right i know that things like ah the the fact that caught your eye candy <unk> up those rights and things people cannot you [noise] you you can like someone to to to use your stuff but you can never just give it away you can not in the news the rights to use this stuff's you you create mhm ah so um uh <unk> i think you have you had something to say on this subject too yeah so in the u._s. um there's a couple of different ways that you approach ah their copyright which uh is is actually not a single right is um though of rights control copying basically copying distribution display et cetera uh derivative or things like that um they're trademark which uh protects ah identifying the source of goods and services <unk> the communities um so basically if mcdonalds and <unk> dollars to promote particular brand you don't get to have the restaurant called mcdonalds because then people might think it's the real thing and you would be basically profiting off of their work building the brand [laughter] uh and that's not just mcdonalds you also don't get to make your own thing called the language patience either because we worked on this friend [laughter] so i we have trademark um uh that name um and that neither of these <unk> it'd be registered [noise] um so you can register copyright trademarks with the u._s. hadn't trademark office and that can be some legal bonuses [laughter] um but then the notion of what's called <unk> moral right in u._s. lodge really really narrow there's one <unk> which is called uh vigil are right back ah seventeen u._s. code section <unk> [laughter] and that actually pretty similar to these european concept of moral right but it only coverage authors of visual art uh which more or less i mean [noise] um but for those people they do have the right to claim offers ship ah who uh prevent their name being on something that they didn't make to ah prevent their name being on something that they think is um excessive like the worst one of their work that one [laughter] um the quote prejudicial uh [laughter] they're on or or a reputation or other sort of [noise] things like that basically mingling than the nature of the [noise] uh and that's really kind of yeah i yeah that's on the the european or should a moral right but in the u. s. we only have it in this one that only applies to quote visual art uh which which kind of things are not really so not really you know like you you couldn't i couldn't see an argument or say have a salary ah being a working visual arts in this definition uh <unk> um is is uh his writing is like art grade griffey really um and so from that point of view if you if you were not as writing but as art then you can maybe have a claim like this uh this is not legal advice i'm nowhere [noise] um but maybe um but as i didn't and not so much yeah so in short this is kind of the things that we might want for <unk> copyright is too too much you just you just end up you know being able to stifle anybody ever being able to use the the uh the the con lying and it's not it's it's just too blunt an instrument exactly these this moral write stuff that's kind of what we would like to have but we can't you can't really apply that to con lungs in the u. s. unless it's you know <unk> based calligraphy or something 'cause it's just not available and then yeah like that's just not the state of the law right now um if we did have moral rights in the u. s. i think they also yes probably went back uh calling falling within [noise] yeah it just isn't an option yeah sadly you know we don't really have the cloud to to lobby for new laws so we kinda are stuck with that maybe some day yeah i don't know um but [laughter] so [laughter] i think i think we've sort of summarize the the position we have the that the l. c. s. has in terms of uh of we don't think the copyright as of right tool and we've made the argument that the system of the con lung itself so like the the words and the grammar of the <unk> you can't copy right and i think in the <unk> also arguments about trademark which is kind of uh maybe you can maybe might be able to trademarked certain things where you could do a trade dress thing and then the patent uh is like uh it has to be useful and it has to be novel and good luck trying to make a con lying that's like that so that's actually original like not not just artistically original but originally in terms of like a mechanic [noise] maybe <unk> might be able to claim that but good luck and all of a sudden you have to file for a pattern within a year of it being published now that's a <unk> relatively recent change and so forth like i could imagine a hypothetical scenario where you might be able to get an unforeseeable pads on on some method of <unk> like actually novel but are are <unk> uh no [laughter] the symbol version and <unk> try dresses sort of i mean uh paramount is not actually claiming trademark and saying oh we're trained dress right <unk> from what i can recall um they're <unk> they're they're cleaning copyrighted right um and the thing <unk> <unk> there is this thing and u._s. in u._s. lawn and obviously we're not taking a position on how much uh i'm just gonna catch it um <unk> there is a thing and you're up on the other <unk> which is i i think a couple of substantial similarities <unk> where you can have copyright <unk> story yeah it [noise] original [noise] so if i were to make a new version of while i was going to think like uh christmas carols but that's in public them and not by now uh but some started that um [noise] harry potter for instance um and i i made just a version of that where i'd just change all the names of the characters uh and maybe i rerun all the chapters and basically in the plot is entirely uh i could probably get [noise] well let me rephrase that i could probably lose a lot right can always get food um [laughter] uh you can get sued for anything but uh [laughter] rushing those are the question is who who went right um so legitimately that is a thing in the u._s. will <unk> um but it's not a very simple <unk> at all um if you read case law um opinion that delve into and uh this kind of thing they look like basic larry literary criticism theses where they're going element by element like house similar on a plot have similar are the character eaters than the characters um yeah uh how is this like uh <unk> got in your in previous uh stories [noise] ah etc [noise] it's it's <unk> complex russia um and that is basically the meat of the cage [laughter] this clean on language thing it's kind of a high point ah couldn't attend a mean or the case right and like what language you use is probably not gonna figure uh big <unk> what languages are used in the script or not probably not going to be a big factor in that part of copyright if you're talking about a look and feel sort of thing that's really hard to say 'cause it never come up for [noise] um right like and the whole look and feel notion they're in an argument community there and ah you know i think both paramount an accent or how really actually quite good in arguments and me personally i'm really curious to see how it's going to turn out mhm um so we're not we're not [noise] where where the um yeah they all c._s. is only concerned about the <unk> the the language stuff right we <unk> we don't really want to get involved in all the other stuff because i think uh the the community has varying opinions on the general [noise] you know the the overarching aspect of the aspects of the case of you know all the other copyright claims it paramount just making and just look and feel sort of stuff [noise] um so and it's not really in the u._s. has interests to get involved in that stuff it's just not well [noise] it's just not what we're about right we're we're about promoting the arts and craft language <unk> and secondarily <unk> like helping particular caught lying in general or not really about whether you can make a uh film in in the star trek universe like that just isn't within our scope um since i really i have are right um it's interesting ah it might be useful and understand the sort of how the copyright law applies to that just to understand the context of the cage [noise] um but that's not really <unk> right [noise] so um i think we need to uh wrap things up i think we've made sort of the the the position that the i think the position that the u._s. has made is clear and i'll let listeners sort of [noise] uh form their own opinions but i think actually and yes i am vice president of the you know so i'm not totally uninterested party in this i think that uh we did the right thing by filing there's grief and trying to get oppressed in to say no you can't copyright hey conway itself because copy riding a con lying is just gonna be brought into powerful and i think it would actually stifles creativity and complain because it it it it just opens up too many possibilities that con language would be afraid to do certain things for fear of being sued and people who are who would be promoting con language might not want to do certain things for fear of being sued like you know yeah david silo wrote er i can't wait assumed that i mean if if the token estate had copyright on seeing the reading the language itself [noise] she probably wouldn't really be able to ah to do that books even though it's a really good thing that you know [noise] i think fellow hot an arrangement oh okay um okay so that that but she you still have the issue of city how they will ask <unk> can you be able to just do that and i'm like okay well that's actually the question okay is that we have had in the past all these these and hockey arrangements yeah he did make an agreement with your state and the thing on language and should chewed has made their own deals with paramount weren't paramount gives them quote unquote unlicensed yep um but yeah should they have to orange should any random person who wants to study in particular on line and write up descriptions of it have to contact the rich <unk> things worked out i don't think it should we have the edge of yes yes we keep making these ah ah <unk> when we were waiting talked to all those about uh uh <unk> language is that there is in principle no sing to er that's er distinguishes ah calling from and the language that <unk> quote unquote <unk> in the world that there is no such thing in the uh nature except for the language that's <unk> that's <unk> that's an offshore language that's <unk> not a real language <unk> language that english french chinese japanese et cetera <unk> making <unk> if we make the claim then we need to go oh we need to make it for oh cases so <unk> whether it is about the nature of the language but also about schools are allowed to use it and if we stop making a distinction about uh uh a natural language anybody can use it anybody can study anybody can write about it but for er constricted name which were saying oh but uh you need to ah the creator needs to have the right to <unk> exactly what can be sending the language then you start making distinctions that's <unk> exists but no no and imagine if you had to ask <unk> more publishing uh like <unk> poetry and french to make sure that it uses approved french and uh and now that is true and then he would love that [laughter] [laughter] uh basically uh uh uh the death of the french language and that's that's the thing actually a big part of the value of the <unk> would would would go away because if you think about um you know uh this is happens a lot with uh david where [noise] um it's with um [noise] was playing on two people contact more <unk> for all kinds of things for all of david languages you see 'em on toddler always you know people were asking him for translation of ah things indoors rocky and <unk> and it would be really sad if one of his employers could just like say no you can't you can't just interact with fans that way we have to control what can be said in this in the language we're we're conditioning for you you do you create [noise] that would that would not be good and it would take away some of the value of those language because fans participating in trying to learn those languages [noise] he's actually valuable to the people who commissioned them in the first place [noise] for sure if you look at the knobby community and the humidity there [noise] um you know they're very very long and that granted actual basis or have a car that movie and er game of around me that they wouldn't necessarily have [noise] then cut oh well you know you don't get to talk about the language without our washing or you don't get the right stuff in the language that are puffing and we'd be deprived of uh lovely putting on file [noise] ah music [laughter] yep and an indian let's be er er er <unk> what we are creating our assistance or a means of communication that's what languages basically even if we treated like a worker box like a piece of <unk> <unk> ah something maine meant to be used for people to go <unk> <unk> each <unk> whether it is by writing they're all <unk> all ah what's <unk> what's it but they are doing and we sit new don't do that then <unk> yeah i think that's exactly right yeah um i can't understand that some people that are very personal thing and <unk> do you agree that's the main thing that we we need to do is to say it keeps it keeps people please try to uh it's uh <unk> <unk> also the <unk> although people are looked shoes right now it's <unk> um in the most of the worlds or when we've done uh don't be at the right [laughter] yeah yeah and and that's that's actually something i was trying to come round too is like [noise] were all talking about like what the the law should do sheer [noise] there is sort of a general idea of politeness and and ethics of saying okay like for <unk> i do commentary on <unk> even if a con language copyright double my stuff would be fair used but now you know when i when we see trick on laying on this on this show i do generally try to contact the breeders beforehand and i don't really ask for permission <unk> more than i ask for them to participate because it would be nice for you know people to come on and talk about their own languages but if they say to me up front i don't want you to talk about my language on the show the nights which by <unk> we do something else because you know i don't want to uh <unk> we we actually early on the show we had uh issues with that of not contracting a creator beforehand and they ended up saying they didn't really want certain language and they were mad about it so i thought you know it's better to contact people beforehand just as politeness and let's be realistic that's how it goes right like nobody you know her <unk> except for paramount uh [laughter] and <unk> and low low blonde blue respond back in the day like this is the second page on her too involved with <unk> that the the legal aspect is interesting it affects mainly not so much you know your your average counseling or as people interacting with an online that someone with a lot of money like paramount uh has got involved [noise] um because [noise] they're not going to send a lawyer [noise] after you they're just gonna send you an email 'cause hey you know can you please knock it off or you can you please you this differently or give me credit or take my name on that i don't want to be associated [noise] and the social aspect um [noise] <unk> each other that's how the <unk> majority [noise] have handled [noise] not really only a matter of time and so we're we're we're dealing with is when it becomes a legal matter when my uh [noise] a threat of a legal action i've had um we want to protect them yeah and even if there was a case [noise] people people bring this up in in the discussion about this the gulf sale what if someone takes my <unk> on line and puts it into their own fictional work and rights new sentences and the gone like we're saying that that's not legally predictable [noise] but yeah that's definitely <unk> move and uh people should be criticized for that but uh giving you the right to shut them down based on that opens up too many other possibilities that should be damaged damaging and the long run [noise] exactly and if you take a look at marks work in general um you know he he's a first amendment lawyers i mean he <unk> her freedom of speech in general and [noise] you know if if you look in front of the clients you sound a bunch of them are asshole frankly um or their uh or the other way around like they're um they're trying to defend against someone who's saying that you're gonna mhm um and you're not [noise] [noise] but in the u. s. you're right to do that um you know not everything but rude should be illegal [noise] there there's a huge step up from saying look you know there there should be cultural or social um rep probation for something because it's rude um and there should be social icon for that right to saying then oh there should be illegal consequences as in maybe this is going to cost you a few tens of thousands of dollars and maybe you don't go to jail oh they're huge right yeah so i think i think ah we've sort of uh made the the uh the whole <unk> [laughter] i would love to see everybody joined the discussion in the comments everybody who's on this <unk> is on the same side so we are well some people too you know from from other angles if they have other you know if they disagree with us on certain points but [noise] but um i say this is this has been a really good discussion and has gives just sort of gave us through the opportunity to to keep this position and i tried should not have tom landry be affiliated with the all see us but yes i am vice president and first of offers president inside psi is uh a director um so yeah uh our our biases is is is plainly visible longest absurd but um but i think we've had a pretty good discussion and um [noise] the last one last thing i want to get out before we go nothing in the shows should be construed as legal advice [laughter] not employers marches a lawyer but he's not your lawyer so [laughter] if you if you get involved in any uh any ah con line copyright um legal actions [noise] in in the in the unlikely trees that happens then please contact a lawyer [noise] [noise] uh contact ah maybe we can be able to help out too we we might we we have connections with some lawyers that are willing to work for free so [laughter] [noise] so you can contact deals yes and if you haven't yet um [noise] so that wasn't the discussion and we had er gives an overview but it really does not do justice brief [noise] so if you have not read the amateur street that mark <unk> seriously i'll read it and then not only one of the funniest legal writings that i've ever read enough [noise] hang something [noise] it is a really good argument both about i._p. law and sort of an hashing defence um <unk> uh language right um [noise] it's [noise] just outright <unk> uh and [noise] do read it yeah yeah yeah that will be a link to in the shadows definitely do read it don't take that this is gonna be some dry legal documents just [noise] decided um you'd sided star trek episodes with star dates there's a lot of clean on and um somehow he managed to you know harass his um his uh uh the legal brief a template into accepting ah clean on fox so [laughter] so it's [laughter] so there's you know playing on written in the ah frankly i think it's terrible rating system that ah that the uh the t._v. shows used but anyway it's fun [noise] and it's not just random it's not just you know for fun these even though it is hilarious but you know mark making a serious point with that in which is you know you can use clean on without permission <unk> [laughter] her cutting that and and he's using it to make a point he's using the language creatively right showing that you can be creative with a language uh and that is the whole argument which is what makes right [noise] all right so if nobody has any does anybody have any less thoughts we just wanna <unk> i don't er stuff [noise] um just saw the last um um um or even my set but given that our uh <unk> is mostly gone i guess i just walk to make it <unk> <unk> again that's it's opposition is not just to protect people who use gonna last but also <unk> those create them and the arguments going at all but that's just <unk> that's so that's uh <unk> uh uh uh <unk> we <unk> we are are supposed to the root of all we are we are doing that too uh <unk> uh uh to uh promotes the <unk> uh and crossed of language creation and two <unk> those who create them mhm languages yeah and i think we've covered how at least we believed that the l._d._s. position helps common language so yes yeah so ah with all that i'm gonna say read read the <unk> ah keep your eyes peeled off for news about the the um [noise] it's paramount versus action are the the case uh read our our legal memo that's that's a good to read too it's a little bit more formal and dryer but it's it's good to get the idea and brought her [noise] the mental goes into <unk> trademark which uh hot copyright that it it has a lot more [noise] more information on on all the other eyed peas and stuff and ah [noise] now i i look forward to seeing the comments i'm sure that'll be a it'll be a [noise] a great discussion on this episode so uh [noise] with all that i'm going to want to say happy coming [noise] yeah [noise] thank you for listening to <unk> you could find our archives in sherman oaks fat <unk> dot com you can support the show on patron ask patriotic dot com slash on line or you can also follow us on baseball quieter brutal plus and on top of her now all of those you just find on larry our web space is provided by the language creation society are steam music is by no device on our news site was designed by bianca richard [noise]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. Axanar
  4. conlang
  5. copyright
  6. Klingon
  7. language
  8. law
  9. linguistics
  10. Paramount

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 119 Paramount v Axanar (last edited 2017-09-10 05:21:38 by TranscriBot)