Conlangery #124: Old Irish (natlang)

Conlangery #124: Old Irish (natlang)

Published: Mon, 03 Oct 2016 05:23:34 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 i know <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> you know [noise] what comes to <unk> luggage looking languages and the people who create them <unk> with me down the road wages will you man that's [noise] uh and with me down the road ways in the other direction is uh [noise] uh matthew <unk> hello hello hello yes hi matthew is that's the right way to pronounce your name i did not keep that well the the french canadian side of the family tends to saint <unk> lear we thought well they're actually there'll be english speaking french canadian so we say <unk> we don't say juliet or anything fancy like that okay bootlegger mask you bootlegger okay that's fine that works for me because she is also a a a grad student here in madison but we grabbed him for this because of their topic because he's recently studying language question mhm i'm in the german department i do historical linguistics historical dramatic stuff mainly but for the past like five years or so i've been really into modern irish uh like various dialects getting into that and i think about a year ago i started working on old irish on my own and just really really got into it so that's my background in this topic yeah and so that's that's uh what we're going to be talking about um uh as we get into before we started i really have i really wanted to um george has a t._v. recommendation just uh out of the the the blue this is something i've been watching a net flicks i'm not through the whole season yet but it's uh i think it's good uh it's a t._v. series called clever man it's a story set in australia after an event whereas these creatures from um average middle mythology called the from from the dream time stories uh called harry people just like people find out that they're real and they you know come onto the scene and the the whole series it's tightened it dark and it's kind of violent so um [noise] uh which is one reason i haven't uh seen more of it 'cause i can't watch it with a baby around [laughter] but um [noise] uh no no <unk> component but and interesting linguistics <unk> <unk> is the the harry people speak uh an australian average little language uh combined gar so that's uh just the suggestion for people yeah it's my it's kind of like urban fantasy but instead of el sins empires it uses um australian akron regional [noise] background right at like the main characters ah clever man which is sort of ah arab original spiritual guide it's following well it's falling a bunch of characters but one of the characters in the clever man and there's the harry people and there's another creatures that i won't go too much into <unk> [laughter] so anyway that is a suggestion uh for all you all you you go check that out but uh as we said before we're not going to be talking about any um australian languages today maybe it's on any australian languages before once we <unk> well maybe we should do another one 'cause [laughter] but today we are going to iron <unk> and and we are going to talk about old irish sometimes known as old gaelic or uh <unk> uh if i pronounce that correctly i never know with <unk> right well you never know irish [laughter] <unk> there we will get into this there there are actually some things we don't know how exactly they were pronouncing old irish but um that's that's just a a side thing um and mass you since you have spent all this time studying old irish i'm going to <unk> sort of let you run the show it get it started so why don't you introduce us too old irish uh sort of um uh i guess most people will know what where well just go over over you know uh all the the basic type a logical stuff and historical stuff just a brief introduction here uh-huh okay well old irish is of course in in dough european languages in the celtic family it's on the the cute celtic side of the the <unk> divide which ah which is how in silver celtic is traditionally divided although i think continental celtic shows like a similar dichotomy but anyway so [noise] let's see what else can we talk about i would mentioned briefly that it took people into a well into the nineteenth century to determine that old irish and irish in general was in fact indoor european yes well it can be pretty that affects me pretty okay uh some times just if you're if you're trying to find cognitive among [noise] you know verbs irish birds versus other into european verbs for example because between old irish and between creole irish and old irish and modern irish you know crazy sounds things have been going on and and and <unk> being compressed together really obscure a lot of uh you know they'll like seems a virus that into europe the inherited into european stock so you know to the point where a lot of it's not recognized as well but of course you know if you look in the right places it's it's pretty easy to see that it is in the european old irish has the same uh masculine feminine neuter gender division that we find a cross you know most of the older andrew european languages and watch you know you go back to far um although modern irish has just like the romance languages simplified that down to the masculine feminine okay um just uh really quick uh thing can you explain really quick what's p. celtic versus cute celtic just just uh so that listeners now right so in the in the european funnel logical system you have a series of sounds that are like you know the sounds basically like you would spell was you know cuban modern english so <unk> <unk> and depending on whether they remained <unk> or <unk> in you know the daughter languages if they if if they remain like that then it's we call it a cue celtic language but in a lot of celtic daughter languages that sound turns <unk> turns into a glove turns into buff actually turning into <unk> is uh is everywhere but <unk> turning into <unk> is the thing that we do not associate with irish or with the gaelic languages <unk> but rather with you know welsh uh brat who cornish those languages okay <unk> so it's it's really based on how this one in the european found was <unk> it's interesting 'cause i think in in a towel like in the atomic languages you have the same thing so like latin is to a towel like for example so all the question would start with <unk> like quit or <unk> or whatever but there are other i tested you know extinct atomic languages that have a p. and all those places so which you know may or may not have to do with the fact that the atomic languages and the celtic languages are supposedly more closely related then you know more recently diverse from each other than other into european daughter like i did not know that uh so i i i knew a little bit about the peon cue celtic uh i just wanted you to explain to her listeners but i didn't know that that happened in the towers but anyway let's let's get further into old irish so there are a few things that you'll find in old irish um that you we kind of should already expect knowing this was a celtic language since we've covered um well before i believe or it was middle welsh right yeah yeah <unk> um so they have the inflicting propositions right and they have the um the uh the the constant mutations why don't we get started a little bit um we'll get a heavy user verbal mountains uh also i i believe shared with welsh so you know especially particularly in modern irish but also a very clear an old irish rather than using you know and <unk> verb you'll just use like some sort of auxiliary <unk> meaning like you know i am and then like i am on something to say to say that you're you know in the process of you're currently doing something mm my no modern whilst that does that i'm sure in middle welsh did that too right okay once we start to talk about what happens to me <unk> understand why you don't like uh it's quite clear terrifying yeah so so just getting started first of all fun logically there's this distinction between broaden slender which seems to be mostly actually <unk> so that's uh there's a a um <unk> language specific terminology ah alert for you to broaden the slender uh-huh i think but this lenders most of them are pound wise um though they're you know there's some things we don't really know how they were <unk> uh they're all historically power lives in some way but so for example you know uh uh power life <unk> versus a non powerful lives peace so versus or something by so in that case of ass you have the non <unk> asked by the power life as it goes all the way back to [noise] show so something maybe hotel bealer so not not necessarily powell but yeah it that's that's where it falls into powder was asian pattern mhm and you have the famous constant mutations for uh for old irish you have um a a regular form hey what's called the nasal lies form which ah it seems like it can be like <unk> or can't just be voicing a voice list sound [laughter] that's exactly right these these these name this name nasal invasion isn't really consistent in as in what it means across the board so for a for a boy swiss stop right on why stop like peer teen okay it means that found becomes voice mhm um but for like a like a b. or a d. or <unk> <unk> in modern irish above turns into mutt so beach turns into em so something turns into like a nasal stop counterpoint historically and old irish that was really like be with like you sound like pre <unk> sort of procedures by um because because uh following word ended within that nasal sound and then that caught in sort of internalized says reanalyze as part of the following we're right so yeah so it's it started as nasal assimilation with <unk> and then you ended up with um with uh voice sound basically and they'd rather have the last one is <unk> uh <unk> which uh it's it varies a lot but it's it's often turning things in the <unk> but it's like it's a little bit all over the place uh s. s. turns into h. [laughter] yes reason basically uh this is so this <unk> the initial mutations we call them initial mutations but really historically these happen whenever a constant was between two vowels mhm and um so basically there was just the sound change that s turned into h was you know deep you <unk> if you want to call it that whenever it was between two vowels now if there was like a previous sort of pro clinic proposition or something that ended where the vowel then that means that you know we're starting with ass bad ass is going to be between two powell was between the vowel ending the previous word and then it's between the following ball so that us as going to turn into a niche and it looks like an initial music communication but it's actually you know the resolving from being between two vowel right right historically that's where it comes from it but the s. turning to ages uh an unusual case there's others like em turns into like a nasal wise to be how would you even say that <unk> <unk> it's kind of a weird or one and uh but d. just becomes the right he becomes ah their other odd one odd ones are eight f. just getting deleted right right and um uh age doesn't do this stuff right h is um there's a there's a site another change its aspiration right right well the aspiration change is basically just following if the <unk> oh okay so they're following word certainly following where it's like <unk> certain proceeding words uh trigger this aspirations call aspiration but it basically means the insertion of an age right so h is is not really part of the mutations it's uh different chain right h. insertion h. isn't really an an an independent sound in old irish and it's really it just exist as the one night a form of s. mhm um and when we get this age insertion what it actually is is the insertion of like an ass at the end of a previous word so some proposition ended with s. and then the following where it starts with the vowel while you got an f. between two thousand that turns into an age and so it looks like you're you're sticking in age from front of an expert in a while you're actually doing that age <unk> be asked that used to be there so so but the h h is in the <unk> or soccer free right [laughter] yes although the <unk> is less hopeful ah then you might think so [laughter] he treats irish d. c. is less helpful than you might think yeah so when you see in an independent h <unk> by independent i mean you know age followed by a vowels and not part of a die graft because h._b._o.'s uses part of die graphs you know here and there and all of irish basically the same way that we use it in in modern english with ah for ph unfair for th but anyway if you see an age by itself um age followed by vowel uh where was i go with this um so either if you've got that in new york <unk> either [noise] there's really no there's no age there but describe just didn't want to start to work with a <unk> there's no found a logical age there [laughter] actually how seriously they just like writing <unk> or that's actually like the the aspiration mutations right so there's just aesthetic age she's in there sometimes yeah just because [noise] quite a bit frustrating drives don't like to start words with styles that off but i mean <unk> they they sometimes do but sometimes yeah there's this there's this were wholesome too just starting to work with the <unk> so it's real it's totally meaningless [laughter] [laughter] so we are talking here about old irish which present a new way of spelling nightmares [noise] irish should never have been dealt with the latin alphabet sure words for never spoken right and um is really what george was saying the two things i mean there's this there's this so <unk> <unk> is really like a smaller <unk> of this bigger like creation of all these new <unk> when sounds we're in between new vowels um so there's that you gotta lotta new sounds from that and you also get a lot of new sound you get basically double the sounds through this <unk> change where every found gets like a new it's new every phoney and gets it's it's you know all three go phony <unk> out of life and so the latin alphabet is just not built to handle that and so that is what makes [noise] old irish or it's harder for you just so chaotic but it it <unk> it was written in latin for a long time before it was written in latin i will say for the script nerds there is another writing system in old irish the the <unk> um running some <unk> right right oh i'm is awesome it's even it's even worse they adapted to to write irish i think but it is really cool yeah it's it's um there's a baseline that can be horizontally or vertical and then there's both perpendicular lines and sort of diagnosed lines and uh even some some fun little like cross things for some of the <unk> but yeah yeah that that middle that horizontal or vertical line was typically like the edge of some like stone monument normally and so you just like going up to this edge of us don't monument you've got like lines going off to the left or to the right or little nachos in the middle and it was kind of like um like morse code or something because if you had like two lines to the last it'd be one thing if you had four in a row consistent one letter and made another thing and so it's it's kinda hard to read 'cause sometimes it's hard to tell to see where the actual letter divisions are but i think it looks pretty cool [laughter] yeah so back to that question spelling old irish right very often when you see a bottle and this is true modern irish as well and and you know modern scots gay like [noise] unless you already know the word it may not be obvious whether that that will is there because it's a bible in the word <unk> stare to tell you how the nearby confident it's pronounced whether it's how little or not right i think that modern irish and and even worse offender with this because they really adheres strictly to that role um [noise] i can't remember what the irish name for it is but it means like <unk> next to fund their confidence in prague vowels <unk> meaning <unk> next to prod confidence right so old irish still does that pretty heavily but it's really it's actually not as bad as modern irish so it doesn't look quite as as <unk> but but we still have that and i really interesting thing because <unk> so important um there are a lot of swabs in old irish but of course there's no shaw vowel that they wrote with so typically you'll get to <unk> you know some like sell about close to the end written with an hey if the if if both neighboring it's soda shocked me written in a bunch of different ways depending on whether the neighboring confidence our power to watch or not right it'll be an hey if they're both non power lines and be an easy if the first one is <unk> about the second one is uh it'll be and i if they're both palm lies and it'll be an eight i if the first one is not power lines and the second one is power lines and this is actually i mean the script israeli soccer iffy historically is all over the place but they did it here to this like somewhat regularly this is something that i've actually looked for and the taxes and so they they [noise] they really try to show <unk> more so than they even like trying to show other things in your thought graffiti i think so right and if you have any of the <unk> the decent modern instruction on old irish in particular it's always going to show you reconstructed historical forms to explain why <unk> <unk> it's so weird it's usually enough to tell you what vowels are doing what job mhm 'cause you know oh well that ended and i so that's probably likely that that little i there is telling me that this following <unk> not <unk> like <unk> <unk> exactly if you know that historically the data in vending for this thing had like a long i at the end by now like after the sound change of losing all final vowels you only remnant on that is not the final confident is still <unk> um so you know if you [noise] it might not always be reflected in in the actual tax and they were <unk> if there was an iron before that last constantly you know that's your only <unk> fitness is maybe the date of right right well um and and this is another important feature of old irish and it might be interesting to people who like historical process is basically the rules for a syllable is the further you stray from the stress accent the more likely you are to be crushed [noise] yeah [noise] so [noise] entire syllables for chopped off the ends of words um there's a marvelous spirit form that involves <unk> fixing a continent which produces a constant cluster and they're like well we hate that and so the entire clusters deleted hopeless was gone so you have actually some forums where the only thing left at what you would i would usually considered a verb it's the initial confident [laughter] right you'll have you'll have like uh if we're originally you had like the prefix and then you know just them and then you stick like mike mike an iris marking ass in there or something or a future marketing asked um to ask those kind of mixed in with all the whatever the semi final confidence are and they're all become that going to become as which means that <unk> they're always going to become h. and basically drop out and now you've got you've got a <unk> and then the first of all the first confident of the stamina men some power and then sometimes that ball was lost so it's just it's insane [laughter] let's transition to them for the most terrified part of the irish tank that yes yes let's definitely about verbs so the thing that's important to know and then we could see the article on this is actually pretty good and the the the free grammar and that you can find on archive dot org which is a little bit old but still pretty good by what's his name [noise] um <unk> <unk> a pretty good about this but you don't just learn a single this is the present tense <unk> like many into european languages irish lobes <unk> if i <unk> i mean things like under <unk> understand or with in withhold things that look like <unk> positions that are slam down to verbs to generate new meeting [noise] mhm [noise] latin <unk> the ancient greek did this sanskrit did this and do this and no irish did this as well um and with dust not just one prepared but there might be quite a pile up in addition to the pilot a <unk> meaning some ten cent aspect forms are require another <unk> [noise] yes so what you've got is birds with a strong recessive accent <unk> every time a previous added the accent moved back one mhm until everything else just sort of condensed into this soup and you know you have to remember so yeah so [noise] i feel like you you need to learn sort of three different languages you need to learn sort of porno celtic and then you have to think about where everything went to primitive irish which is sort of is what oh when you was used to ride the stage before irish but with all the <unk> and stuff and then and then actual virus with some more changes because with the bird i mean you really need to be if you're reading it as a non native speaker you need to be conscious of all these <unk> that are just like hidden in there um and some of them are left and it's just like you know one letter or even the power and all of the nation on some letter and it's because of the result of all of these you know this is my mission and seen compete vowels dropping and then things motion to each other and assimilate voicing assimilation you know d. voicing assimilation everything just piles together like you said the farther it is from this but the the sort of bump in the second <unk> which is where the stresses envision it sort of like an animal um is more like a <unk> [laughter] and then everything just goes downhill from there right so you're learning a simple conjugation you have to learn what typically cult pecan jumped form and that's the verb form that has had the accent shifted to <unk> it's important to know that in addition to like <unk> that change meetings simple navigation requires is content form it's basically the lump together mhm um and <unk> exactly the same way right and certain conjunctions so yeah it makes me thing uh sorry i was just gonna say uh we have reason to believe that in some parts of new european at least germs were all including they had no accent of their own um this really cops have invaded certain weirdness isn't ancient greek seem to explain this and it'll say average just ran with this idea [noise] [noise] yeah it's amazing that the stress could be so far from the stadium itself i mean the <unk> it's like so far off to the right with all these you know so to speak with all these <unk> piled on it's [noise] i don't know what's interesting also is that the <unk> modern irish basically um modern irish firms always reflect like this they come from this contract forum um so the form of the verb that was like ready to have a <unk> stuck on the front and not from from the sort of independence standing forum um which is why modern irish verbs are so difficult to you know be liking to up to the other end of european continents because they've got all these <unk> stuck on there but there's still some shorten succinct you can't really tell them that there's any pre barbaric what there is [noise] right right i i can't see you know you you're talking about uh everything being sort of shifted away from the root of the bird but mostly what we are talking about is that older irish really really strongly prefers initial stress section right and so it's just it's just uh like everything else is falling out from this preference for a very strong stress accent followed up by you know a whole bunch of sound changes that uh uh her when something's on stressed right the <unk> the famous statements about old irish from some <unk> mandel end of european is dead learning old irish it's like mowing the lawn it's something you have to do periodically and it's because of the need to keep all of this and track in mind [noise] um and the complications that come from this what's weird about old irish is arcade irish looks more recognized simply endure european and middle irish said this is insanity and regular rise to all sorts of things but it just so happens that this grand a period of old irish literature of the writing down of poetry and stories and law and music um happened in this extremely phonetically unsettled period of the language yes we we caught them at just the right time just before everything was kind of getting you know revamped and renovated and people were figuring out at this verbs system is way too complicated let's simplify things so it's really it's really interesting from a historical perspective but it's also an extremely chaotic and it's extremely hard to read because like the order um certain <unk> tank is sort of you know prescription of in one way um if you go further back in the language but if if it's if you have certain particles where they're you know supposed to go it's just the whole thing gets really messy and hard to understand and so you can see in later tax like certain particles get placed in different in a different order because you know and everything's just being <unk> so it was crazy and you never know what to expect when you're when you're in before you encounter a particular <unk> right and then it gets to the last one of the <unk> is [noise] they can be separated from the <unk> <unk> object to pronoun forms right <unk> pronouns are really cool but this of course shows you know that the <unk> of arms were originally like very separate which of course perimeter european we know and everything right right but the the object pronounce he gets shoved in the middle and sometimes that object pro now it's only reflected in a mutations the mutations of course so yeah so that's great and guess what sometimes that new generation is not reflected in the north of graffiti even better sometimes the the third person uh i think <unk> neuter uh third person neuter singular object pronoun is just representatives <unk> um <unk> uh you know the following confident but you can't depending on the letter you can always tell if it's a <unk> if it's a <unk> you can't tell what from the tax generally whether that's when i did too and ah you just kinda tough so so you have to and from where there where there are object pronoun sometimes right do you have anything else to say about <unk> [noise] not the verbal known i mean i don't know how historical you got with with the middle wells are really <unk> we need to be but i think they're the verbal now is a really cool justin how their forum because you know in the european like anybody as taking latin or greek knows it and the european has all these different now in classes which basically come from different stan extensions and under your and old irish and i guess celtic in general has found just a ton of different ways to create these verbal <unk> for their birds which they all sort of serve the same purpose like you can use all the verbal mountains and the exact same way but they all just looked so different from each other and there's no way to you know know how a particular one is gonna be created and i uh just unlike infinity of which is perfectly regular <unk> modestly regular injury and open day um invaded right right exactly i mean they're just they're they're they look like regular announce and of course if a if a verbal noun corresponds to have heard that has two or three <unk> allowed is going to have those pretty verbs as well on the verbal now there's going to have more to national stress and so you're going to get all of those crazy changes that where everything gets sort of crunch together which is why some of these verbal mountains have multiple <unk> but they're really like shorten concise right so that's we're saying old irish caught at sort of a weird period in history um i don't know if you're eager to produce a language that is really really hard for a second language learners to figure out [noise] um but if you are [laughter] um they're in various things you can do the uh any good irish uh old irish grammer like this apollo one these old ones have nice big chunks at the start on historical stuff um probably some of it's out of date but for creative purposes cares [noise] so let's talk a little bit more about had those mutations exactly formed and how you might want to use them yourself yeah i know and a lot of or i've met a lot of common language anyway who are interested at least in the idea of doing something like initial mutations in their language 'cause you know we all know languages where you make changes at the end of the word to changes it's changed the meaning somehow but you know it's kind of a novelty for a lot of people that you can do similar things in the beginning of a word and have a similar effect than i think it's pretty cool um i know that talking did that at least one of his wife was just um so it's something that's you know that had premier than the colleen community before um she'll be i mean [noise] should we just talk about how you could go about doing that like historically or i mean sure if people are working on like a historical background for their like in a historical evolution of their <unk> absolutely which we often recommend if you're going naturalistic so right or at least you know to have some idea of where the initial where the initial mutations come from not necessarily to you know have a whole earlier stage of the language but you know it's good to have an idea of where they come from i guess mm and basically the initial mutations and celtic well we talked about um <unk> or <unk> it's called an irish or <unk> or shave as it's called an irish and so who do the naval station which is really like these are terrible names for these things because they're not really consistently use to describe like the actual sound changes that are happening but they're really just to describe like the patterns nasal invasion as a set of mutations and one nation as a set of mutations even though it's not always find a lot to do the same kind of <unk> across the board let me says yes so nasal inflation is basically the results of the proceeding word um frequently like a <unk> like indoor european and for like in inside um that ends within our weren't that and with and do the exact same thing so [noise] if you have you know the word in a proposition and followed by some now that begins with <unk> first of all that and at the end of the proposition is going to assimilate into an em it's gonna take on to leave your quality of the <unk> um so then instead of in <unk> you have em huh and then basically you have this um change that i think well <unk> i think the <unk> must have done this at the same time too but [noise] the <unk> the mutations are really kind of similar unparalleled but they're also like really different in some ways though i'm a member sure but anyway and irish what happened was that the m. p. sequence sort of combines and turns into a b. um and this doesn't just happen across like word boundaries like this um so the word for a hundred and irish is kate and ending with a d which is like you know tend to them and under european <unk> n. t. turns into d. m. p. turned and to be and k. turns into <unk> and so that's basically we're that that the nasal mutations comes from um if you <unk> if you have uh if you were original word started with a beef ben you know you get the analysts i'm waiting to an <unk> when you have em <unk> and then and be actually in a separate sound change was sort of simplified to to a double am mm 'kay now um yeah and one thing about these mitchell mutations is like just about any soon change if if you want it to be you know it's one thing for these mutations to be condition <unk> by the proceeding proposition and the <unk> than that environment stays there it's it's uh not this thing once that environment is remove mhm right so what's funding is if you look at these great granddaughters of old irish and i assume good ones that new uh modern irish um you're looking at a noun decline chicken which looks pretty standard but they're going to be some sort of notation telling you what sort of mutations will follow that for so if we just took you know look at a simple oh stan neuter in irish even though the the the and ending is missing they're still and they're telling you that the following we're just gonna get a nasal mutations and the <unk> in the <unk> um it's his little l l it's going to limit ah if these guys that are um used to end in a vow even though that's all was gone downhill develops gone 'cause we know old irish said all settled by <unk> by by and again for the accused and comes back so so yeah so that's even more widespread in old irish than it is you know in modern irish this the mutations are restricted to to certain you know like with propositions or whatever it is but a lot of times and all this stuff happens like across whole phrases and it's almost comparable to like something like seventy that happens in sanskrit where it's just these words or next to each other so [noise] you know this sounds are gonna interact what's great is this is seventy which sounds that are no longer pain right it's it's crazy so and and it makes for sort of interesting grammatical thing partly because you have the grammatical information on uh in the case we were describing announce being marked on them next word right in addition whatever changes are happening to them or yes yeah especially it'll irish you will get a lot of like internal changes and the now the song course across new question inflections can get really complicated sometime but it is really interesting that a lotta times to distinguish between like the <unk> and the <unk> for the you know gender the coral are accused of coral or whatever the only clue you have is the sound that the next word starts with which is why it's so like william was talking about like in these grammar is when they write the paradigm bolt right like a little super script and on our little for nasal vision or a little super script el <unk> just to remind you that that part of the inflection that is like in eight to the nominate singular you know that and in that forum it's not the nominated singular if the next foreign <unk> if the next work whatever it is doesn't undergo <unk> medical information right that's part of that's part of the question is to change something about the next word <unk> this is yeah it's it's interesting it's like some of these uh we've talked to before about some languages africa in particular where you had a word some connector some grammatical word and now the only thing left about it is a tone change somewhere mm right um and this is the same sort of thing sounds that are missing [laughter] um but uh sound change becomes part of the underlying form of the word and must be remembered <unk> uh a larger construction right and this is true for a verb forms that is true for <unk> and of course <unk> positions and all sorts of fun things right so that's the the the thing the clue for uh for <unk> i think for people want to play with this is if you're gonna want these sort of a natural kind of mutations um you don't have to just copy it kills me ones but you need to come up with what happens when this kind of sound occurs between two levels and think about then they give up sunday um and then run through some some changes that might delete some stuff and well off [noise] you've got initial mutations right whatever um changes you happen to be working on or thinking about like word internally just look for places where they might affect like a proposition following you know a a following it now and if you're taking those two together like could that sound change of <unk> like if you if you allow them to sort of cross that border you know what interesting affects when it <unk> it has like a cooler facts and you know you could consider it you could make that like become part of the grammar and a future stage with the language and and that is like an initial mutations that becomes like caught a fighting the grammar yep right yeah it <unk> it can be anything too there are some changes that stayed turtles who's a word in some changes that that crossword boundaries but there's not really any that much trouble uh i difference what kinds of sound changes can happen you could have all sorts of things and it couldn't it you know in in all the irish we've got certain specific changes to an initial consummate that are happening because you couldn't have all kinds of things we mentioned you can have a tone change happen you can have uh sometimes val harmony crosses a word boundaries are you usually it sort of limited in the way it crosses word boundaries but it can happen you could have different kinds of constant changes so instead of the nasal is they shouldn't and uh <unk> things you could have uh maybe a gym a nation rules that kicks in uh uh uh uh place assimilation rule that keeps them you can do a lot of deer print things with this basic concept that we see in celtic languages of uh of uh uh historical cindy rule that became radicalized yeah it doesn't have to be like you know in gaelic and irish we have like nasal invasion quote unquote and then when they shouldn't which is you know we're thing basically things becoming cricket of between bottles but you nasal inflation is frequently means like voice thing but you can have something where it's like on boys thing or i mean any kind of like <unk> wherever whatever that means for your language so it it's anything is possible yeah um to me what to say anything else that we think it's vital to cover i might er there's a few things someone had mentioned about some of the books we have available um [noise] not so much i thing madison oh man i had i think that's all that i had on my mind okay i think we've got uh a good bit of stuff uh uh well <unk> why don't you go through with your book recommendations and ninety so for the uh for just perfectly free and it's just a reference grammer it's not going to teach her how to really read the language um is the um comic book um free on our <unk> or there are a few places where it's missing pages [noise] um so you're going to have to find another source to learn about these singular forms of the work for a snake [laughter] um [laughter] but i think it's a good summary it's not too terrifying um what's interesting as i said we talked about these preserves which are kind of like <unk> positions and it has a nice section of those [noise] talking about what they mean independently and what they mean to a certain degree um in competition with um a verbs um so for people who like to come up with a word creation systems it's i think it's we're looking at um and tried to talk a little bit about it does have a few tex not too many um <unk> it's actually not terrible <unk> ah yeah it's it's good it does it have you know tons of examples to look at but it goes to the good overview right and you get you know gets a little historical background um if you actually want to try to learn this language more um there's the layman book and just don't [laughter] 'cause they're a problem with that one it's just really unfriendly i think it's great if you want to read the story of mcdonalds pig mhm but to actually learn the language from i just don't see how you would do that the the information is not laid out well um really the best books the gold standard now is david shift hers i'm shame good old um it's a little bit more expensive it's in the thirty forty range um it has there's just no other way there is no other way it gives you lots of practice lots of examples sentences to play with that are more interesting than just the glasses um without overwhelming you um they're cute little cartoons of sheep yeah he's pretty good sense of humor too which i like in the exercises that he makes up which i appreciate in uh you know language book writer yeah and it's a hard language so <unk> can be funny if it takes cartoons are sheep to help you through um then yes you so you know um and it it's huge lots and lots of ah reading samples so i think that's far the best option um for anyone who tried to learn it now that's what i that's all i have to say all right uh so any financial thoughts from anyone [noise] old irish crazy north are graffiti is nuts and the phonology is maybe even worse but it's it's rewarding it's it's uh it's definitely an interesting language to look at from the historical perspective and you could even think about um we mention that we kind of catch this is mass of literature in what may be sort of a transitional period in the language yeah a lot of the literature is um how shall we say corrupted ah with middle ah irish forms [noise] what else ah which <unk> which adds to the joys of reading material but yeah we didn't catch this weird spot right all of this but what's going on and that's when they voted all day yeah but um the reason i i say that is if you want to make a language it's like old irish bats that's cool lots of people like to do super complicated stuff if you want to make a language that had a stage like this in the past that was very sort of broken and um had a lot of things wrong on that got settled down later that might be an interesting thing to do with the <unk> especially if you had like a reason to have both presented you'd like a story or something someone's reading the old language and the new language is is ah being spoken you know so there's a lot of interesting creative things you can do with um a lot of the ideas that we pull out from looking at what hold irish does yeah [noise] yeah if you're looking for [noise] for the boroughs [noise] old irish it's better than modern [noise] so [noise] with all of that [noise] uh i'm gonna say thank you matt for uh coming on the show and bring someone would you rather than me [noise] and uh that i'm going to say happy on line [noise] thank you for listening to <unk> you could find our archives in sherman oaks <unk> dot com you could support the show on patron at patriotic dot com slash <unk> you can also follow us on baseball quieter brutal plus and on top of her now all of those you just find online or our web space is provided by the language creation society steam music he's buying all device on our news site was designed by bianca richer [noise]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. Celtic
  4. conlang
  5. Irish
  6. language
  7. linguistics
  8. natlang
  9. Old Irish

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 124 Old Irish (natlang) (last edited 2017-09-10 09:18:56 by TranscriBot)