Conlangery #24: Possession

Conlangery #24: Possession

Published: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 17:00:32 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 oh i was uh and [noise] and um [noise] oh probably trick on margaret cho about er good language is under people don't want to work or like what a blood is the lovely <unk> hi [noise] um [noise] with us is the the um [noise] in the state of wisconsin is fabulous weather man [laughter] [laughter] [noise] <unk> excellent [noise] [laughter] [noise] if you don't know why i'm calling him fabulous i think they <unk> actually [noise] yes well oh yeah [noise] [noise] [laughter] so i found some light separate chopsticks on the internet [laughter] don't eat food with the plastic chopsticks it will just ended tiers [laughter] i know it seems seems like a wrong material but make chopsticks out of <unk> like you can get away with rice but other than that it will probably be a pain [noise] uh rice sticky you often don't even eat rice with regular chopsticks eat with us food [laughter] oh no i haven't i have mastered the art of shoveling rice and to my mom's from a whole [noise] um oh do you lift the ball i do okay yeah that's the right way to do it anyway [laughter] yeah okay however trap chopsticks like the <unk> the ball ten miles that's just <unk> yeah the funny thing was that that was linked from hans solo in <unk> ice cube trays [laughter] okay my favorite thing i got my last no not this last but they but they before that i got the lego eighty eighty and i got um well the feds ship the lego set and went to like say you get <unk> but you also get like a bigger brought block that you can <unk> and it's him and carbon night which i think it's the most adorable thing ever [laughter] see we you know that we're well rounded individual because we're all hung lawyers and we all love star wars which is the linguistically most brain dead yeah uh series in the world [laughter] pretty terrible [laughter] in florida <unk> good looking in the day though uh harrison ford is awesome and it's so scary for sure yeah [laughter] okay [laughter] why don't we actually talk about some linguistics though [laughter] so we are today talking about possession don't don't ah possession is um well where you're <unk> how language indicates that one thing is possessed by another something is the property up the other or part of the other one and a lot of things that go into at william why don't you take it away [noise] why not take it away <unk> right so let's start with the fundamental distinction which is not really over in english and most european language is alien <unk> versus in illegal [noise] so obviously something is illegal but means it can be taken from you somehow i wonder if it's in illegal it cannot be [noise] this is a weird kind of terminology is a little bit weird most languages that have a distinction <unk> things tend to be body parts and the members of your family yeah i can imagine it is most definitely alien will versus in an alien <unk> it is actually an arbitrary distinction it's not like players but it's not like it always makes cents each language kind of it'll make some sort of sense but it's not like every language will have the same <unk> well that's true but i i would say it's it's nowhere near as arbitrary is something like gender <unk> the number of things that tend to be mark enable <unk> is pretty small [noise] um where occasional exceptions appear um for example ah dogs were very important work animals in pre colombian north america and so some native american languages dogs are <unk> <unk> <unk> and and it's almost always a special case right you have to make a special note for dogs where's it might just be body parts family and then for some reason your dog it is also there [laughter] and i know that my family yeah i i think it's related to that but it's not exactly the same 'cause when i use the phrase my mother that is not possession in the same way that my book is right now you don't own your mother [noise] no i sure hope not yeah but you belong to the same group as your mother your that group being your family right there's there's a relationship there that that defined [noise] um so like i said body parts family members things you have made <unk> so if i tell ya i like if i say my book does that mean up a book i have it hinders them read a book i wrote yeah so it's like what does that distinction can be <unk> that's that's a very interesting the snakes and to do yeah um and and places where you live and and you know tools and and dogs and and <unk> there's a few other things that made me marked in elite level but definitely body parts and family are the big too [noise] so there are different ways to mark this um the simplest is just to indicate possession differently with some sort of different syntax um in chinese when you say my mother or my father deem normal possessive particle is dropped yeah you just say well ma yeah right you say <unk> instead of them are so <unk> is the possess a particle my book is <unk> the shoe [noise] and then but you you do that differently um english actually has some subtle effects in the difference between of and apostrophe s. [noise] um [noise] and that's that that may be more and and and enemies the issue um many languages have altogether different markers or family member versus ineligible possession like a completely different set of prefix was are suffix or words or whatever it is [noise] um in <unk> every now and that is <unk> cannot appear without possession there is no word <unk> four mother it has to be someone's mother your mother my mother or it could be someone's mother but the word by itself simply cannot occur now one thing that kind of interests me is the idea that some language is mark this on the possess or some languages market on the possessed like some languages would have something that's sort of uh a possessive or a janitor marker and some have a possessed marker sure sure and that's <unk> you know that's another topic we could come up with some time is head marking versus telemarketing languages or not [laughter] telemarketing means good market modify are working much [laughter] ah yeah dependency market [noise] sorry um right so so i'm not even really touching on on that issue um so it you're correct you're gonna have a head market language or dependent market language and those <unk> mark possession differently um er and they want they mark everything different he was all sorts of weirdness would the verbs and so forth but [laughter] i'm focusing on them just possession as a general concept and we can we can save the head versus dependent marked for another episode okay okay well let's go and i guess the last thing to say about <unk> is that a small number of languages do have different syntax or completely different have verbs um and and idioms to distinguish those so this is the difference between a tribute have possession versus private could've possession my hand my book is attribute if i have a book is a pretty good and some languages make the distinction between <unk> and you know he won't even in pretty good situation <unk> okay i <unk> [laughter] it seems like a useful idea um i forget the language i saw that had um have it had to have one for alien nibble one for an alien to bowl but it it it extended to clue to anything you would possess for a long time oh okay so it was starting to to take up new new ground oh that's interesting [laughter] so you could have just different have herbs and uh that's sort of uh a tendon tangential idea that we might get two later is um languages having or not having a word oh a verb to have sure but they'll have some way to indicated even if it's not an overt or yeah [noise] um so credit possession has it i guess we're supposed to talk about this can be really darn weird [laughter] the number of languages that don't have a <unk> have it's always been surprising to me and the weird variety of ways of saying i have something is quite astonishing um i'll always remember the first time i saw it in <unk> thought my little head was going to explode [noise] you just simply say it the idiom i have a book is expressed with what means my book exists chanel so hello hello [noise] so you use the verb of existence and possessed form that's really interesting you know my <unk> exists right should you did <unk> i have a car and all that stuff is is and the past kansas my book existed i had to work well not who doesn't have a past tense but yeah all right sorry [laughter] [noise] um but but yeah there's probably some perfect or something that you used to express <unk> meaning yeah there's some way to get the past and that yeah yeah yeah um [noise] then you also noted alternate structure that is actually is that a lucrative expression uh with <unk> yeah not so sure hold on <unk> and with me there is a book yeah [noise] <unk> arabic arabic has this as an option as well i had the uh cut that you know i have a book is with me is the way to say i at least in the classical language mhm i like that idea of using a competitive or even just a lucrative to to express that meaning sure gets it's my impression and i couldn't find a good um notes [noise] is that russian or some other slavic languages but i think russian does weird things difference in um [noise] differentiating addictive from agenda too in possession has hints at <unk> versus animal [laughter] don't hold me on that there's something weird going on there um and it might be in an alien versus enable distinction my impression is linguists still haven't figured it out [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] in the middle of a change in that <unk> that that's yeah that might be as well that could be it that's i love it when very well known and presumably well studied language is have things that we're totally baffled by [laughter] yeah well someone just has to get around to it and finally start thinking you know this is really strange [laughter] uh um what else er and and and we're talking about all these things plenty of languages may have multiple options available for expressing <unk> different kinds of possession my favorite because it's always my favorite example is ancient greek [noise] has it can use it daily lives both for attribute event predicates possession it has <unk> has it has <unk> has possessive pronouns um poets do horrible things where they turn down to the adjectives and pretend they're jetted too so [laughter] so it's not like your language needs to have one way to do this even if you're not making a distinction between alien <unk> yeah you could you could have just multiple different ways that are maybe just i wouldn't i'm not um don't wanna say used in pre variation but used in different contact there's your stylistic could register differences or whatever yeah yeah [noise] free adrenalin how long do these possibilities [laughter] i like to think that sometimes the more important things <unk> <unk> yeah <unk> like [noise] it must have racing and think of now if body parts in spanish you don't <unk> that fish for whatever reason and you know that may not be out of this if you don't speak spanish <unk> oh yeah yeah spanish it has a very that's very interesting idea of [noise] it's very specific so if you're you are if um the possess or is the agent of a sentence and their body part is a possessive you use a reflective and then the the body part is not modified at all yeah so in that way you would think i would say oh it's there on leashes put that on and sometimes the way to be my cat's name i think that's not to add a bunch of different little watching them call it come out of coffee chased that radical change where you you shake [noise] you know so i didn't think about that yeah so <unk> i'll let you finish before i go on with my otherwise it i'm diane okay so this seems to be a feature of all the romance languages um and it looks like it expanded into germany so in in england uh english in french <unk> i wash my hands is you know i watch myself the hands yeah you don't need to say my hands you already know that um as a bronco does this as well and i was just gonna say um there's uh suing language called <unk> which has a special prefix on the verb that says that the direct object belongs to the agent of the verb mhm so i read my book will have i just prefix read book <unk> okay [noise] and it cannot be used for enabled possession which is interesting so it's it's it's it's opposite of the the romance language situation in the sense that one is for a number one is <unk> the point is they're both effectively modifying us this clinic pile up in front of a verb [laughter] to indicate possession of the direct object by the speaker well by the agent with the verb yeah um and the state of spanish i you can like see sort of logic but considering the romance languages are kind of reflects of obsessed they use reflections for a lot of things right so you can see where you might say i watch myself the hands [laughter] or the park but i washed yeah there's kind of a weird latin used to be accused if that that might be the the the origin for that in any case [noise] so that's a sibling <unk> purse does the most demented think of all [laughter] okay well <unk> it's a <unk> language waving the pacific northwest of my favorite place for funky languages um it is one of the rare try apartheid languages who that is subjects have <unk> have no marking subjects of transit verbs heavy case marker and object the direct objects of trans suburbs have whatever marker so three different case markings for the different case rolls [noise] you can instead of that remove subject an object marking from the from uh claws with the transit river and there are two things that could mean one it could be an anti passive instead of hi hunt or seals it'd be focuses the object can you were saying i'm just hunting some seals so that's when you said the weirdness the same trick can also be used is the direct object is uh the property of the agent icy my dog could be expressed this way in this purse where you suddenly stop case marking the subject indirect object [noise] with the transit verb indicates possession of the direct object <unk> there has to be some animosity stuff involved in that have i'm sure there is i don't <unk> i mean the the paper did not explore all the details they're more interested in something else uh although i find myself very entertained by you trying to dance around how to illustrate what an anti pass it means in english [laughter] yeah [laughter] that's <unk> that's another one of these that's another show [laughter] and i ended up having to do <unk> yes yes we are um [noise] wow so there's just a lot of weird stuff you can do <unk> turns out to be stranger than than we might think [noise] and then do we have time i mean the other thing that is languages that do not own incorporation also have all sorts of funky this with in in terms of of implications repossession as well [laughter] oh oh like for example well instead of doing uh reflects the verb like you would do in french for i wash my hands [noise] you wouldn't be um i hand wash uh [laughter] with an implication that because the the possess <unk> incorporated now and he's <unk> it might happen differently okay that's <unk> i'm trying to think of an example where which is more complicated and fun but i'm not sure how to demonstrate that on on radio so [laughter] i mean i've set enough if you just want to do a google on now in a corporation and possession then you're off to the races <unk> you'll you'll find papers and people worrying about things mm cool [noise] well i think that's that's um about all the information we can really give on that topic than less on unless you guys have something else nope <unk> just a little more gets bored of things to look up in your spare time to do <unk> what kind of a small topic but <unk> why we feel about twenty minutes with it so how about we move along our future language today is <unk> [noise] so which has an amusing concede uh-huh that it's being built up from the the an published notes of a traveler to new guinea oh okay i didn't realize that it's way up at the top which is why there's um [noise] things involving cats or where he's [laughter] [noise] uh makes a lot my sense now yeah i i hate the [noise] uh that's that's not in this that's that was mentioned after we've stopped recording alaska so maybe you should repeat that [laughter] but we were just you know we we can talk about the other features of a barkley but one of the there's a bunch of texas at the end and they have some sayings and one of the things is my mother had to face that would frighten uh cast away but she was a fine cook [laughter] look up <unk> to figure out what that means but yeah i heard her <unk> their flight less dangerous birds [laughter] that looked like they would they would tear you apart would there be is what they are with larry larry feet [laughter] and i'm not that scared me <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> those for their entire year and half have you yeah <unk> that's the thing though the the cat's worries feet look like they're thick enough that you could punch you with them [noise] i'm trying to <unk> there's <unk> there's a limit special about a cast wary in some language i think that one of these languages of new guinea has a ridiculous lean small number of <unk> like twelve twelve verbs and all other verbal notions or expressed uh with <unk> but i think one of those verbs has to be like a cast of wary cry oh that's that i couldn't be <unk> whatever it was for some reason this language has it ridiculously small number of herbs and one of them is devoted somehow the gas wary so anyway let's let's try to shift and tried to actually talk about a <unk> <unk> <unk> what does it <unk> it i haven't <unk> whereas the accent they is chris here here's an example of things that kind of <unk> irritating me he says stress is fairly weak and normally occurred on the <unk> before the last <unk> of a phrase [noise] now that second part it's kind of interesting but stresses rarely fairly week what the hell does that mean that means you have like a robot it means that they were aiming at french phrase intonation rather than whatever [noise] i might might have it then but then we have counter examples right after it that says in some cases the shifting of stress changes the meaning of the phrase [laughter] so we have <unk> uh which means he is not speaking <unk> which means no one is speaking which is <unk> yeah that's interesting though to order that would change but um [noise] i don't know why and okay and this is eight another language like like i said in that uses <unk> terminology so we have <unk> <unk> i am thinking that <unk> fires amount amount of fires are just plain suffix yeah or maybe some sort of <unk> 'cause like it's it's highly synthetic yes but and and this is [noise] i feel that the creator of this language was scared of it [laughter] i like i say what i mean by this is it's clearly a highly synthetic bordering on polly synthetic language [noise] but they're so terrified of this that the language or tiger iffy makes is completely neurotic about letting you know every morphine boundary yes you don't get that you're not going to hear it that's for sure um including you have something that looks like an apostrophe it's not actually apostrophe but it looks like a posh free marking a morphine boundary [noise] which i don't like yeah i don't i don't think i don't think it was necessary [laughter] um so i think a lot of people uh beginning coming years especially become freaked out when they have a morphine that's one one constant long which we get some of in this language and this anxiety but it'd be confused for something else i think produce some of this this weird <unk> mhm yeah it is kind of just kind of thrown in there [noise] uh possessive or not really that special it's just the plus a pronoun yeah well that's fine but um you don't have to have a crazy possessive [noise] just because that's our our episode they does that mean you must yeah so back or <unk> [laughter] ah he does have adjectives <unk> an adverb which he doesn't listen to the first place [noise] and [noise] <unk> [noise] here and she long lasting modify aspect just just driving me nuts [noise] well i like the idea of those as like derivation will subjects as well as suffering like huh [laughter] but i think he ran out of here crazy well my problem with this list is i don't think they've gone crazy compared to some languages even i've invented this is an extremely tame list of things just smack onto verb [noise] there's no <unk> <unk> indication of what order they're supposed to go in there i think tank combined <unk> [laughter] right i mean some are thing like some <unk> some r. s. factual some are um like <unk> <unk> <unk> and some and some are tense and some that the <unk> the negotiation goes there and uh somewhere some tactic yeah like that they they mean conjunctions and some some are even <unk> it seems like a really which one i'm trying to think i'm trying to see where there was war one or two that made me think derivation but now i don't see 'cause all of them like two and two maybe but so those were so it doesn't <unk> right yeah <unk> fires can be combined to express many shades of meeting yes in what order please [noise] yeah i would like for him to instead of it seems like he's just kind of like making this giant list and saying okay i can combine they used to do shopping not a giant [laughter] yeah well well it's like <unk> mash together that which i felt like <unk> <unk> it reminds me i put this on the now that's how mine to me all the things i dislike about my language [laughter] anyway i would say um maybe this area myself but [noise] i would say that what you could do with the verb is he should just categorized these and to you know mood aspect this kinda thing and put together a verb complex and fix it that way and then the mountains i don't necessarily need that much but you could also create a mountain complex 'cause there are quite a few of these <unk> too i like the example sentence under this business about how the <unk> motor fires can be combined to express many shades of meeting one of the examples is instead <unk> [laughter] i i need [laughter] ah or is this is even better while he was peering mud bugsy hurt a dog singing [laughter] i [laughter] i don't have the same website and like you know that that's i'm looking at compounds <unk> oh yes i see yeah he is quite good with the the examples with me he needs to learn how to make losses properly though [noise] um do we know when this pages last modified that would be a good interesting this kind of looks <unk> just like notes rather than um are you real um presentation of a grammar so although he does have some pretty good tax here yeah there's lots of texas i'm just [noise] just it's a poly synthetic language let it to be a poly synthetic language don't use the dashes and apostrophe is just just go mhm that'd be free [noise] [noise] mhm [noise] but um let's see anything interesting really okay larry <unk> when oh well i think that's driving me nuts yeah if it closely related <unk> tell like <unk> there's an exchange all done by changing the foul ah any idaho theory and i'm just like now <unk> <unk> [noise] mhm okay every once in a while to like if i if one for me out there but i wouldn't give a whole set of like <unk> [laughter] oh no this is tom pounding is interesting in that in the midst of all this crazy polly synthetic miss his compounds actually require <unk> oh yeah like hit one of his one of his example you might like is is uh uh cats are wary fly boned dagger is dagger of boat of five <unk> oh okay that's a big long braids which is apparently a single waxing i don't know why i'm there's also a term for that but i i there's also a dedicated word for that issue but that that's just the basic that that was the expanded out compound of it i don't know it seems less interesting uh talk about it [laughter] well you know trying to explain the big long grammar firmer then again [laughter] and there's there's a lot of stuff that went into creating this and translate all these tax i'm <unk> definitely [noise] but er i just we just see [laughter] we all just see a lot of places where he could improve it [noise] yeah yeah i mean yeah there's some there's an interesting idea i wish that all of the um <unk> positions didn't start with the same continent yes [laughter] yeah well i don't watch that now that we're all like one letter off <unk> no the numbers are different fortunately ah i think it must have been <unk> league well see that [laughter] the thing is he can change the jade okay to make different meanings so but to make it movement but i would say leave that leaves the day off and then you could have k. as a prefix to change that meaning um maybe it's just they're all one syllable word starting with [noise] with jay <unk> [noise] and then a constant it's just not it <unk> seems very unnatural to me mhm well i don't know <unk> there's not a big deal but yeah they're the same structure and over and then there'll be like oh if i i don't know <unk> 'cause i didn't have <unk> [laughter] i'm <unk> you know it's <unk> so <unk> yeah <unk> oh can't andre caliber [noise] [laughter] and you get all sorts of pets like that last right plus with of such a <unk> synthetic language [noise] doesn't really need the propositions right why uh did it if he did it the right one yeah well i don't i don't know enough about all of the languages on new guinea which is what the the theory is this is this is [noise] from there so i don't know if that's usual for those language is to have that style of probably synthesis we could yeah that would be an interesting thing to figure out whether although new guinea everything can be found there practically doesn't new guinea have have an insane dense the languages highest language that's the on the planet yeah um i'm i'm <unk> i think that's what i was i think a thousand languages without you in languages i'm pop when you're getting and i am i i'm guessing that those belong to probably a dozen different families i don't i i can't say i get the feeling that it's a bit of a muzzle still to figure out what's going on there and it could be [noise] so you could you could have room for a lot of weirdness if you send your language there oh yeah oh yeah [noise] but um yeah i think i think this language actually has promise if he keeps working on it and works out some of the systems better but right now it seems kind of have finished uh yeah i won't disagree with that there's some interesting ideas here but it just needs to be it needs to be allowed to breathe free and do something [noise] so that's about all i have to say about it but uh why don't we move on to feedback they have a great feedback today it's kind of large [laughter] well <unk> well i don't i don't think i wanna read it read the whole thing but i'm just gonna say we've got an email back from it pearson about uh <unk> and by the way he did put the p._b._s. on line like we had said he had he had told me that basically he was thinking in terms of internet uh ten years ago or twenty years ago where in <unk> floating when downloading that large of a file would be a problem but now he decided it's okay you can put up a giant p._d._f. on line people especially in one is well form editors his uh-huh yeah <unk> i'm just i i'm very very happy that he put the language up but every time i think about it or look at it both the grammar in the dictionary i feel like a total slacker [laughter] huge it's fast it's enormous yeah um let's see he <unk> he said he actually doesn't have any complete tex other than the north when the sun which is surprising um he's good at coming up with example sense yeah his um he had a whole lot of examples sentences <unk> guy i oh i just kind of thought that he was uh uh some sort of <unk> character [laughter] and um [noise] he doesn't know she didn't understand why you were um why you had a weird feeling about f. well yes he understood it perfectly he said he edited later yeah that it later okay [laughter] so right so i'll read from the letter <unk> it's funny that william would be suspicious or unhappy about the presence of f. since originally the language did not have the sound i only edited later like william i love small constant inventories but eleven was too phew i felt like the words were getting to whom <unk> looking sounding sorry edited twelfth okay so maybe that's what you were showing you are realizing that maybe it was [noise] not fitting into the system right and there were very few words that had it because all of his new words had it rather than yeah to most of the other thing too it seems a little funky and it seemed it i'll choice he also he was defending why for <unk> that i would defend usually why <unk> on grounds that the five regular <unk> letters were already taken the south and i didn't want to use any diet critics which would have created problems for using a foul tie a critic to represent irregular stress anyway it's one of the things that makes a coon as a quota or thought graffiti distinctive and slightly weird i equate it somewhat with sally caves idiosyncratic but wonderful choice to use you for the <unk> yeah [laughter] so how much okay this is probably one of my pet peeves is english spelling when they don't like when it's the paddle lied and <unk> i <unk> think jai feeling that [noise] which that just made me fat inside [laughter] i know that five <unk> even now my first instinct is so why should just be around it <unk> well i uh after hearing them to find it i i i i am uh hi i'm understanding him butter i would not have chosen the same to do the same thing he did but typically now you can do anyway it's his language and he has a good reason for using [laughter] he's the one with the p._h._d. in linguistics yes he he he has a p._h._d. in linguistics my own life <unk> but that you had that <unk> i <unk> i didn't mean that <unk> not even like at <unk> i don't know i don't know um having a p._h._d. for linguistics might actually be detrimental to creating or soccer fee for other people to understand because you've probably read so many different grammar is with <unk> that make really odd choices that you're just familiar with all of those now [laughter] well that's fine i mean [noise] yeah you you have to especially if you want to start using die critics to mark important things you have and and you have some number of <unk> you have to figure out how to make them work together and some combinations of die critic simply don't work or are illegible so i i don't blame people for casting about and doing slightly weird things to to to make things work <unk> i mean <unk> language is don't have monsters about inventories yeah some time we have to do a thing on uh an episode on <unk> because i think really the the the i the thing about <unk> is there's multiple sort of competing um design uh goals and <unk> right that you need to figure out which one is your priority so i want to do i i would like to do an episode and the future that details that so we also have to do voice and we have to do a lot of uh [noise] but anyway [laughter] that wraps up all that we had for this episode so ah <unk> any words a wisdom yeah now and the whole week i had to think up my waist and i can't think of any [laughter] ah that joke okay william [noise] i did have wisdom but i have an example sentence from the language i'm working on now which is very appropriate for today what is it [noise] <unk> which means they were complaining [laughter] they were complaining but the funny for me it's funny 'cause it sounds like it has nuts in it it has <unk> has [laughter] not in it and eight [laughter] [laughter] i'm sorry has <unk> that's funny that see no yeah [laughter] it has as an aspect it at evidence <unk> [laughter] okay okay [laughter] hi i'm matt hi hi lyle nuts [laughter] hi <unk> [noise] okay hi tone hi download him oh hats hi hi lyle nuts yeah okay [noise] well and i'm going to say happy combine thank you for listening to con library you can find all our episodes and show notes as well subscribe to r. i. too or are assess speeds through con larry dot <unk> dot org you can also like our face book page or follow at con library on porter if you would like to contact us with corrections comets questions or suggestions or even suggest your own caught lying is a feature please a male <unk> uh gee male dot com or call in to our new voicemail lard three zero four eight seven three six to eight one [noise] we also have a handy suggestions more on our side [noise] our name was created by then during the day is mm mm mm mm mm mm mm [noise] [noise]

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Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 24 Possession (last edited 2017-09-06 12:01:02 by TranscriBot)