Conlangery #28: “Correlatives” (well, mostly indefinites)

Conlangery #28: “Correlatives” (well, mostly indefinites)

Published: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:00:28 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> good idea yeah <unk> uh mm mm mm [noise] them to call <unk> pardon me started languages and the people who created them george correlate with us and marry england is my lovely cohost should be <unk> [laughter] plus a memory at this point her name is now the outdoor richard because she got married twenty the last recording in this recording but she was <unk> congratulations and uh yeah you just heard the talented william <unk> high and you also her hey man who doesn't need much introduction but i'm going to introduce him anyway the creator of toss rocky president of the language <unk> society the one the only david jay peterson gotta <unk> <unk> <unk> that's why you sound like when i say hello [laughter] found at least it wasn't one of those you know ten minute academic introductions people get [laughter] oh dear yeah i paint knows that much but anyway so how long are we all do and [noise] i just spent the last month trying to make a simple decision for my current language i think that's my curse for the rest of my life is i will run into one thing and spend a month or two researching it exhaustively before making a simple decision i am in the midst of preparing to take the g._r._e. again [noise] so that i can <unk> applying for graduate schools yeah knowing about that thing the uh the the fact that they changed it um so now you have that that nonsense s._a._t. right uh you know uh they you know it used to be um a logic section are you familiar with these kind of uh personally i think of them is games um where they say something like um uh sallie is taller than god uh and then marry is the ah middle lean compared to her other two sisters and then something like um aaron is the shortest a ball and then they tell you rank all of these people you know that you know these kind of um <unk> problem yeah that that used to be what the third section doesn't g._r._e. was there was a map component there was a verbal component and then there were these watch again um and in fact uh when i when i went to um [noise] when i took the g._r._e. they were trying out the new section which is the essay uh basically they gave us the option they said would you allowed to participate in you know this voluntary thing where you go ahead and write an essay so we can try this out and i said yes so i took uh take a look at the essay topic which was something like um [laughter] uh nuclear power has it's benefits but it can also be dangerous what do you think about that are like are you kidding that's a joke and so then i proceeded to not right and he has to at all [noise] um but anyway uh at uh at u._c._s._b. i was at ah a graduate school for linguistics there i talked to um this was <unk> it was on the uh uh emissions committee she said <unk> i i asked about jerry they said pretty much the only thing they looked at um you know for the linguistics programme was the third section logic section uh they weren't interested in the mouth of the verbal and then they got rid of it so that's interesting yeah um i i'm actually looking into get going into linguistics programs and a couple of of them that you know we don't actually look at the g._r._e. at all yeah they're <unk> but um like one of 'em said it might help to get financial aid and stuff so that's good so i i took it before but i'm going to take it again to improve or [noise] or try to [noise] so do you remember what's your other topics were or topic was um oh yes my essay topic it was this odd scenario about um two archaeological cultures acquiring um face pistol no [laughter] no i think <unk> was um agriculture or um technology to go up and down the river but it was it was a little it was ah kind of complicated and i had to workout logically um i had to give my opinion on something and i think i over fought it because it was uh just about but there was there was conflicting evidence but the the blue preponderance of evidence is supposed to be going in one direction so i think you were supposed to choose one answer but i was i was throwing in extra hypothetical [noise] oh my goodness [laughter] yes that's an idea but it's complicated than our topic yes okay [laughter] well shall we get into our topic sure oh why don't we [noise] we are talking today about [noise] <unk> no um david solve this topic and fought this is a dumb topic so [laughter] well no not not a dumb topic it's just uh and and interesting grouping <unk> it's not exactly uh uh <unk> um topic the eh eh this is i mean we mentioned before we started but the only place where you see um this being like a single topic <unk> eh spur on too and then in other con lengths that base it on us bronchial budget um usually the the things that relatives covers and things like ah qualifiers um demonstrative uh and determine nurse or not to turner's that's even a article um usually treated uh separately by a given natural language they might group one or two of the others together but i don't think you see a natural language where you can find a natural grouping uh like you see a <unk> or what's covered by their their table relatives yeah and that's the thing is that drove me that uh gave me the idea to do this topic was just me and william we're on the last episode and we featured i spent on too and i mentioned the crowds have <unk> williams like you know you just ignore that because it's it's far too regular [noise] right i i thought i i've always thought that uh that she was very very cute though you know t. o. and then she deal means uh this thing [laughter] yeah but anyway so we're talking [noise] question were [noise] um short of certain negative pronouns and indefinite pronouns since uh can be hidden this sort of <unk> court but as as uh david was mentioning yeah it usually is something that has handled multiple different ways within the same language and that's kind of work on a piece park here right so that's broncos <unk> charred as we've mentioned is kind of large if you've not seen it has everything from [noise] um the demonstrative to the question words negative you know someone <unk> you're in how to <unk> [laughter] yeah that that that made me but i don't know some people have a beginning con linger who's [noise] you know first appears in the board may acquire such a visceral hatred for language they've never looked at because people get really vicious about us round to him i think well it's supposed to be <unk> oh um well <unk> well you're how old are you exactly no i just know never mind that no one is not supposed to act out there [laughter] but uh [noise] people that are coming to the game later it's <unk> it's different now because now especially with um with now the um <unk> there's going to be far more pad to con lying and then there were even ten or fifteen years ago um <unk> that's right the uncle was gonna say something you were now i <unk> yeah and then after that anyway it's just not really <unk> i never looked at it right in addition to the the simple things like who what you know one dimension of the chart is like you know reasons so you get words for like why in for this reason in for every reasoning for no reason and time you know [noise] then never always that sort of stuff do you have this big chart for this week i focus mostly on the relationship between the question words and did the indefinite cause all sorts of hanky stuff goes on there and it's kind of interesting <unk> you know by the way i just wonder mentioned one thing though i mean that's brought who was after all <unk> like um i think it's grill it if it works very well for it's purposes i it's it's nice and simple and memorable um even have one fewer confident to remember since you have cheap to you and things like that uh you know it's it's uh it's very nice <unk> the only place where it becomes problematic is if you use that as kind of a guide and are trying to create something <unk> attempting to be natural her naturalistic huh and that's that's that was something that i brought up when i was looking up at it on the last episode news and william just like yeah you can't really do that [laughter] [laughter] you can for an <unk> i'm sure other <unk> honestly when i first tried to learn as bronco seriously i found the creative charts difficult because they all rhymed yes [laughter] a whole range of words of of different meaning in function all rhyme i find that a little difficult it's either mixed things up ah i think it was actually speaking yes i agree [noise] [noise] and i still have to stop sometimes and like should i use cue or killed here yeah [noise] so don't do that if you're trying to make a natural comment so where do we want to start in terms of the real ones in real language as well you you posted um in our <unk> the walls chapter alright and indefinitely and question words is is specifically what it's called talking about and what it looks like to me is it looks like the majority of languages based there i don't know <unk> on the the question work but then there's several other paradigm she can have right so you start with your question words who where when [noise] whatever all of that stuff and you are deaf indefinite something somebody somewhere that sort of stuff can be derived from those question words in various ways you might add various kinds of <unk> um vietnamese ads demonstrative and there's some language is even more confusing we don't distinguish i mean from the standpoint of an english speaker [noise] be indefinite and the question we're look the same and and some people try to say then that that this indicates that they're not exactly that the words are indicating something different from what we're used to thinking about that there's some sort of uncertainty is what the pronoun or or ever expresses rather than an actual question or <unk> but [noise] that takes us into theoretical rounds maybe we can avoid for now that people can [noise] research if they want to so they have to <unk> go ahead oh actually i i wanted to ask you you kind of passed it by but i thought it was much worse junior notes you back go back to vietnamese what exactly at <unk> at least what you just said was vietnamese has a demonstrative that's attached to the question work but when you have written here is vietnamese an option to have who mean someone has not demonstrative that the bird right that is see so i thought that was fun 'cause it it kind of parallels the mandarin but then takes a little twist on it [noise] vietnamese has multiple ways multiple strategies okay cool so how did that wouldn't work i i don't even get it which which don't you get how who i don't know okay so let's let's talk through and get to the end of the basic list and we can talk about how these rules and 'cause i go for it um so the first kind is where your indefinite are somehow related to your question words [noise] um and we can get into the details of that a little bit more um there are other indefinite where it's like english you just use a normal now and and you [noise] modified somehow some won some things um where anyone anything anywhere [noise] um [noise] and that's the most that's the second most common option a small number of languages have a completely separate [noise] sets of indefinite <unk> completely different lexical items that aren't obviously related to anything else and then the the last possibility is you use some sort of existential he um [noise] for the subject of a clause in mandarin chinese you use for somebody you don't use the normal you say <unk> which just means there is a person and then it's the rest of the sentence yeah okay okay whatever whatever whatever [noise] so the reason vietnamese was funny is 'cause it uses an existential but it's still chooses the question we're uh-huh mm right you know i'd rather make sense um how's that yeah that is an object positions i'm way no object position in mannered normally use just a straight up question word [laughter] yeah yeah uh <unk> it's the enemy is a question word but you mentioned something that i didn't i wasn't thinking about in this context but yeah you you mentioned in the notes the the fact that mandarin also expresses the sort of the <unk> every one everything by putting the question word modify the verb with dole meaning all right so so he knows everything or this guy knows everything is <unk> literally this person something all nose and we're the word for something is also the same word for what yes [noise] so one thing i'm i'm just talking here about indefinite but i'm being very vague i'm talking about the positive indefinite someone anyone somewhere some you know anywhere but you've got negative indefinite nobody nowhere and you have the sort of sort of interesting scoping problems of everyone everywhere everything [noise] and all of these can get tangled up and fun and interesting ways [noise] we do not have time on the show to cover all of them [laughter] i yeah it it was another one where i'm just hoping to raise and possibilities and [noise] people who want to do something other than english as a project can go do their own research [noise] what's interesting is it appears to be across all sorts of languages [noise] is that using a bear question word as an indefinite is restricted to certain sites circumstances that place since that behavior i was just saying earlier in mandarin chinese you can't use them as the subject right you can't you <unk> no i mean that that can only that will only ever be a question yeah [laughter] oh you oh i'm sorry you mean ads and into okay gotcha right right um whereas there's a common set of circumstances where it can be used in negative sentences um in questions and this was surprising to me after mode will add verbs like probably <unk> more likely in that sort of stuff and in conditional sentences and the reason i thought this was interesting because you've got vietnamese chinese okay they're in the same <unk> whatever they're doing the same latin does the same thing <unk> in a conditional your question words becoming definite um hey [noise] right so this seems to be a pretty widespread pattern so wait so let me get this so let and you can say something like the reason i notice is because i have memorize the palm of could tell us [laughter] oh okay right so secrets may see that it was cool about c. r. a. if someone were to allow me to and he's talking about some too young they kiss kits you forever [noise] the word for anybody is just a normal word for who oh okay i see which would otherwise in in different circumstances would be a word derived from <unk> not just straight up <unk> you have bad it's pretty cool you have been silent this whole time i know my <unk> [laughter] i i'm curious about your opinion on like i don't know i mean these things exist [laughter] um [noise] no i don't i have <unk> much of anything <unk> okay well let's see [noise] um just most surprising to me was that <unk> things were enough to license to use of question buried question words as indefinite <unk> but i suppose you wouldn't ever <unk> ever say who <unk> you know who probably saw that does that make sense to somebody probably <unk> i don't know [noise] probably saw that well i mean we saw this guy that does he try with if <unk> if it doesn't really work yeah life then went out yeah [noise] and i don't know i mean yeah i mean not not in that way it's like uh sorry you could say it who went out that that was that was the wrong one that was i mean like if if who went to the market then [laughter] yeah right yeah yeah you can't you can't structure that as a question yeah because i don't know a conditional with yeah kind of preece opposes that you that you know what the right yeah now you can put it in the what is it the <unk> basis but not in the press stations <unk> [laughter] i'm sorry i know these words yeah i know i know blaming <unk> it's okay okay right like it's a wide [laughter] sorry oh but i i i do have um uh idiosyncratic uh pronunciations like dinosaur and pack a funny oh dear that's no good sounds that sounds okay anyway i don't <unk> i mean i think i've heard people their second one that killed me [laughter] but anyway back to the indefinite <unk> think about i mean when you're inventing your language that to me the <unk> charred is obviously a terrible model if you want a language it's very naturalistic [noise] but there are still the possibility of relationships there [noise] that people should think about yeah and you'll see them from language to language japanese it's a small one that is almost ah regular yeah yeah um but uh it it's kind of hard if you start just from the chart to go backwards and produce that irregularity and then and that pretty much goes for all framework i can speak broadly yeah that's probably true [noise] i think like you said all things like getting anybody somebody nobody i <unk> i don't like it like <unk> <unk> [noise] um i think things are mostly that copying case it just sounds all right all right there so covert yeah you're <unk> we don't unless you have spent <unk> unless you've had this chart or linguistics classes presented to you you most of us don't think about the distinction between <unk> someone anyone tax actually none of the reason that i was interested in looking at that <unk> as a tool [noise] not to base your curled lives on that part i guess we were all sort of a dream that that chart is completely an naturalistic so you you can use it if you're doing a <unk> not if you're gone necessarily naturalistic language but uh just to get the idea of these things are different i think we um you mentioned at one point that like that charge separates any and every and some some languages will use the sane pronouns for those [noise] right <unk> yeah i think uh hold on [laughter] well [noise] spanish no you have [noise] i mean <unk> the equivalent of the some distinction any any distinction [noise] yes i'm an enemy that's right it's not the same in every language right <unk> <unk> this was another reason it's so easy to accidently reproduce that distinction in your language if you've not stop to think [noise] um my dad so i'm looking at the walls page about beans and how is uh is really cool in that the um the end what what correspond <unk> any indefinite english are derived from interactive you know the question words and the equivalent of the some somebody indefinite <unk> are like english they they're generic now both yeah mm [laughter] well the thing is there's there's something a bit more definite about somebody and something uh had a uh a weird thing in yell <unk> where i had started out with the all the psalms having sort of a relationship something was hall and then how and some and then somebody was <unk> and then uh i threw a historical screwball by making those change so that how became this thing and <unk> became <unk> being mhm so i don't really know funny backwards way for that changed normally go [laughter] well i don't know they're they're flying reptile aliens so yeah okay i think back with david it's funny you talk about the the the some the some you know somebody something seeming more um definite somehow um in the walls discussion they they call them quote unquote reality indefinite that's uh that's kinda versus free choice indefinite it's it's kind of nice that's kind of a nice <unk> um [laughter] the ideas that you know with you know something somebody somewhere you have a specific place in mind or or you have an idea that it must exist so reality is but you know it's not necessary that you know what it is or where it is so it's indefinite well it you know um william you were mentioning that informal english and he is used with negatives right whereas some or or it's used in that sort of a free choice situation <unk> anyone let's let their from the middle of the u._s. really what did they do ah that that awful um say like i i buy a new i'm only recording this i don't know how to use it properly but things like um i go to the movies anymore oh god i hate that so much i know it <unk> yeah yeah you know yeah if you notice that we're not even any means i go to the movies if it's really i think okay well <unk> [noise] that's really interesting <unk> where's this from like ah <unk> <unk> <unk> the person that i got the information from what's actually from the um the the where's the university it's it's it's chicago wet champagne or something okay <unk> okay <unk> so i just studied based on islands scary my <unk> [noise] <unk> the thing is my my the way that you said it david uh-huh i my internal <unk> grammar immediately rejection but for some reason if you front anymore it sounds more reasonable so like any more i go to the movies now that sounds of lay down a little bit like a girl and <unk> [laughter] that's why i go to any more [laughter] all right so we're as i sidetrack considering how much you tell me outside of baltimore i think <unk> and actually died and that guy [laughter] and had an n._f._l. team named after him [laughter] some people think he may have been a vampire oh my god oh all right [laughter] sorry [laughter] we have a party down where they have the fake movie of uh like the new adventures of edgar allan poe where he's a <unk> a hunter with with young lincoln [laughter] ah look oh my god [noise] all right [laughter] what else we wanted to say about <unk> apart from the fact that some of them are likely to be related and confusing oh well my my question was ah wire if we were dealing with relatives why we're dealing with demonstrative [noise] 'cause that says scarier topic i wanted to say for an entirely different show okay [noise] okay well the <unk> i i came across some really cool example uh [noise] i was taking cognitive science of all what's helped a little bit about and we can you know actually i was i posted uh i posted a big on like most about it many years ago and i was going through the archives looking for that message and i couldn't find it um but it's a it's a it was fun it was it was uh it was a native american like no it might have been in south american language but it was um it was the smoking at a very small area where they lived in this place that was uh i guess next to a very large ill and so like pretty much all of their demonstrative had to do with whether it was at the base of the hill somewhere in the middle of the hill or at the top of the hill whether you could see the person whether you couldn't see them and then there was a third parameter at each of them actually on the phone even attached to them and they made their uh concert up that way wow that's interesting um i'm gonna have to really listen to that to understand what you shit [laughter] well it is easier if we have the actual example okay i'll i'll look for it we've talked about this i think earlier both uh a language like west greenland dick oriented things to the seashore sort of thing you you don't just say this or that you say this that's out to sea or that that's england and and up and down the coast um i always liked the west greenland example because one set of the demonstrative which indicates something way out to see his practically <unk> only demean things in denmark [laughter] since that's where they were ruled from from so for so long [noise] um and um <unk> which is uh uh at the basket language [noise] in california um oriented things to the main river that runs through the valley that they live in [noise] so up river down river across the river [noise] all of that so there's all sorts of interesting things you can do their for demonstrative but it's so interesting that i think we should save it for it's entirely ohio one of one another they would ask them what [laughter] one other to look at uh oh throw it out too and maybe there's probably information online about it now but there than iraq language that was um when i went to <unk> uh when i was at berkeley the historical linguistics professor there andrew garrett he was dead in europe and all of their relational have to do with ah relationship to the water shit and that led me to look up what the heck a watershed was because i'd never heard of it that's it in the same that's in solid i mean that's uh uh <unk> uh not a cousin it's completely unrelated language but it's really close to where the hoop a live as well so that might be an aerial effect adopted carver <unk> oh no they're not adopted they got <unk> what you call them the cussing anyway right right [laughter] you're right it's funny it's an <unk> language which means it's related to the <unk> languages on the other coast yeah i i think that iraq and the and the <unk> people just heard about how great the salmon wasn't california <unk> never left [laughter] anybody who comes here why would you ever laid it right i <unk> i mean that that's my excuse for the extraordinary linguistic diversity of california salmon acorns [laughter] well i mean it's true with the the the especially the ocean the ocean side can support a big population [laughter] anyway [noise] i forgot to mention that we have a guy who volunteer is volunteering time to edit but he's not going to do this up so you didn't the previous to yeah hey [noise] he makes me sound like i'm on speed [laughter] he edits out all of my bosses which is fine but whoa [laughter] well the thing was that i was more likely to leave and you taking a breath because to me that seemed like a a signal for you for your going onto the next spot or something some sort of pragmatic single so i left then but he he edits out most of those yeah yeah anyway i didn't notice sound so now that we've gotten on to that tangent right take that means that we have not much else to talk about the with the current events or at least not much that we don't want to put into another <unk> that <unk> we decided to talk about later but um i'm going to say <unk> than we are going to move on to our [noise] featured con lang today <unk> heart and it is i'm going to see figure out how to pronounce the i'm gonna say coal mine i think that's right mhm yes he he yeah okay it just for some reason my english rains makes me want to say go maine but it's gone mine and uh for what it's worth i'm going to pronounce it go maine [laughter] it's uh it had been on our list for a while but the last time we you know talk to after show deciding what to do we decided that we liked this language 'cause it has some of the best example sentences that's one of my favorites is for the love of god michael it's only a minor injury [laughter] unfortunately those example <unk> those have <unk> right that's a little frustrating yeah there are a lot of examples that was so <unk> for that i thought it was really neat um because you can get by without clauses yeah at least you underline certain things but there was one example i'm probably not going to be able to find it where something is underlined and the and they complain sentence and not in new translation [laughter] i find that right oh yeah that night and english on <unk> so anyway i <unk> starting i always start with the phonology when i look at these things and <unk> only notable thing i see is that has has voice lists correll voice list l. and voice lists <unk> w so it has <unk> whatever and so paired with voice counterparts so that's sort of an odd thing and then maybe he was funded welsh it has this <unk> heavy vowels system [noise] it was rather a large but i'll just yes it is it is a rather big voucher system and fairly front heavy [noise] not quite uh swedish i think has got to ask especially now that <unk> [laughter] i i've met that cart you is it healthy too <unk> you used to used domain and the <unk> to to really um it's a nice kid um even even sees the teenager at the time now an adult what what year this [laughter] if i find like i love it so it's gotta be gotta be at least twenty i think that's pretty cool [laughter] really it was a teenager when he came up with this um i've been working on for like ten years [laughter] oh well it is i mean it has in some ways it has a first <unk> feel to it but and but it is and most of the ways but yeah yeah yeah but it's very well developed at least he's got <unk> relative chart yeah oh <unk> it doesn't seem it's more interesting than desperadoes is but you know yeah i heard it um but yeah this is actually usually the first thing that somebody does it say they're going by the relative sharp they say well it's brought up with that many i can think of even more so than out here where is the <unk> yeah it is in it's under the pronoun morphology uh at least it has gaps that makes sense that's useful so one thing i noticed is that it has it looks like fully forty eight basic propositions oh where was that by the way i did that in <unk> under pronounce be five is perfect propositions on <unk> it's like come on and on and on [laughter] making fun of misspelling but anyway yeah oh he has a deceptive that's cute at the sensitive yes so we have important words like ex wife and former senator oh yeah okay [laughter] his million term the fur he calls him familiar terms kim jumped terms are very well develop and he has separate words for older brother younger brothers that <unk> um right all chinese speakers we'll prove that [laughter] they're fun but um so there's that and he has a whole different calendars that's based on uh approximate time of sunrise like average armed sunrise rather than on midnight and but he has a whole bunch of oh talking about current <unk> involved in personally use of the use of the verb off go so that's that's something not a lot of people think of is whether for his go a normal verb for that sort of thing i don't know [noise] i don't know how the years i i can't quite figure it out because he has he doesn't have examples like it rains he has these long thing [laughter] [laughter] <unk> news announcer says it would be sunny today i'm like just told me what <unk> how do you say it rains [noise] well uh but it goes cloud right there at the end oh how but oh goes cloud so it goes clouded goes swimming that's interesting i don't know [noise] for precipitation chinese uses it comes down so i guess for it falls right when that <unk> that sort of that's an obvious verb to choose for that that's why i was surprised about go yeah going [noise] go well you can think of it [noise] it's it's kind of like english use of go in certain circumstances of you know uh i don't know the <unk> drops and goes ball or something i don't know right so [laughter] so that's um that might be it but like i'm not quite uh idiot phones yeah sometimes you just go which is why it was <unk> yeah you could be something really the bird just could be that he decided to use <unk> because it was about the uh [noise] um i like <unk> <unk> for the subject marking on the <unk> just because i'm into prefix heavy mood at the time william you you might approve of his dictionary really not yeah look at his his mine english no yes um i i remember looking at it i love that he has for verbs that are irregular i'm guessing since he doesn't do this <unk> he you know gives the table of the forums that's very useful mhm um i he has a few idioms [noise] but i wish more common language would put examples in their dictionaries <unk> this this kind of hard to figure out a <unk> many examples um i i know it's hard work but unless you're going to relax english this is the <unk> just show that you're not doing that in my opinion it's not really i mean you can you can kind of look until and this is pretty much that [noise] yeah um well it's kind of like that it's very entertaining to me that he has one for glossed as having orgasm more seizure [laughter] well how also has a boyfriend male ally and then the the work for a girlfriend his girlfriend female uh all right so you can change and relationship is relation can also mean alliance <unk> <unk> relationship i mean this isn't i mean yeah i mean he's got some words that are clearly um not simply relaxes of english there are plenty that are but yeah i i i always any really wanna see short example sense isn't as dictionaries as well um when i tried doing that example sentence <unk> that's the type that tells me i <unk> yes it is it's hard work that i i don't always you know keep to that myself just because especially if i'm in <unk> production but <unk> yeah it it's it's a enough to do like the hundreds of examples you need to put in a grammar right but when you you're trying to come up with an example for every word [noise] kind of uh so so i'm gonna i'm gonna do what i you know we we we're not going to do which is asked david about those rocky i remember when the press first started talking about you know we're getting ready for the thing to come out in that case they voted language you're dictionary was pretty huge coming out the gate like two thousand words like seventeen hundred seventy <unk> how did you just how do you go about this process uh sorry i i just got really describe how rather offensive ward and the bees um unlimited misunderstanding how he's intending this um <unk> um [noise] so yeah uh sorry uh passed away okay so what was what was the question here ah [noise] ah does rockies dictionary right um it seems like you had lots more words than our normally ready getting it going out the gate when there's typically a very small corpus for a t._v. show or movie <unk> i think absolutely elect scott as my favorite part of creating a language it's i think we're i mean you know there's a huge amount of work when you're setting up you know the grammar making sure things were but i mean ninety percent of what of languages electric on [laughter] um that's usually the first place i go when i look at somebody's language than they are just like this <unk> means that the sort of think that all the law like okay [laughter] um i guess with uh with with those rocky i kind of um i started building it almost ah in the same way that i um i built another uh the language it's i made uh sheila which is okay [laughter] um but that one had uh i haven't had a bunch of now in classes um and that's rocky doesn't really properly half now in classes at least it's certainly not in the same way or to the same extent but um but basically i started that way so um at least from the drugs just rocket english <unk> everything is arranged by um roots or <unk> and so then under that it's so whatever words are derived from are related to that stem um and so usually what would happen was you know um if i needed a word i would you know first [noise] take a look at that worried um see alright first kansas word be related to anything else [laughter] sorry buddy [laughter] i i i heard a bunch of typing that i saw a message guy [laughter] and so i figured oh well that was probably what it was in the messages [laughter] sorry this is this is the <unk> ah this is um a little bit uh sausage making but occasionally i forget to add feedback and i will near the end of the show somebody will get to talk about something i'll start adding feedback spent oh [laughter] so anyway so you proceed by roots uh just to at least that's that's how i did it for that's already did a <unk> throughout the end and continue to do it so but yeah like if you if you need a word i mean you can't just you can't just create a word and say oh this work for that is this i mean you have to consider at first uh in the cultural context uh versus it makes sense at all um and then second [noise] is this thing going to be a basic word is it's going to be a drive word derive what if what is it going to be derived from uh is it going to be regular derivation morphology if they're going to be a metaphorical extension it so what's it going to be a metaphorical extension from um and this this thing actually requires a whole new route well then you know what other things are one other things as as we're going to be doing what other words they're going to be related to it's um you know if you're going to be a verb associated with it and so and so forth and so you know you sit down to create one word you end up with seventeen at the other end right right um yeah so pretty good [noise] it seemed like a lot of words quickly by hand <unk> i'm i'm only up to eight or nine hundred for my current project 'cause it it really does take a lot of sitting down and thinking i suppose i'd be better about it if i were being paid [laughter] see my my whole thing about creating word is i do it as translations need it which is probably not always the best idea when you are um dealing with um the fact that dealing with uh trying to avoid relaxing english but that's yeah that's how i do it just because [noise] sort of i'd create as i need it but then i don't know i think i might need to start doing a little bit more just creating were <unk> doing a session of creating words because sometimes i just like i get to a translation and i get to a word i'm like really don't have that word yeah yeah well i think it's like it's fine do it when you needed if you've got some time to sit down with it but um thing i realized and it it yeah i i realized before had an uh turned out to be quite true like if um if i needed to do translations on demand and suddenly i don't have like five of the eight words i'm going to need and <unk> the kind of thing where it's like we need this right now that's like you have the coin those words and if you're forced into that sort of situation you're just not to come up with stuff yeah and then try to come up with an explanation port afterwards um and it's like you know you can do it um it it's possible that's why it's um sounds like a sweat uh offer 'em or did and that's with um um you know uh mark okra and did um but if you're trying to make a a language that you know what's what's natural um yeah you put the time and effort and so i just did um i just did that beforehand you did some fish store cool stuff on the threat you didn't you know like the whole thing pretty much yeah yeah okay 'cause i know you you constantly are mentioning historical stuff on the dresser yeah but um anyway we ceased talking about domain yeah mine and and <unk> i mean it's a dictionary i approve of the layout it's nice he gave us how to cope with your regular verbs so that's nice um know examples which makes me less happy and while he does have some words that are clearly not simply relaxes them english there's still a hefty dose of okay where you at are pretty clearly i mean yeah it's it's not the case that like i mean there's gonna be a lot of crossover with any vocabulary ah right at their cultures are somewhat similar but it's you know it's always this question of you know you have a word in english um and you know it might be a basic word it might be drives and question is is the same isn't the is the expression used for the same reference is it done in <unk> feel the same way in english um uh yeah and then or is it ah or is it done in any kind of interesting way at all with any thought given to ah just where this word would come from what its history would be you know sometimes there are basic words i think like the english word first sign and so and it's pretty much sun going as far back as you can go like all the way to p. i. e. [laughter] um but you know sometimes other things happen um and so that's that's kind of part that i find the most interesting um and <unk> really privilege to con license uh kind of what i look for what i'm interested in it yeah i can i can see that that idea um he does have a section sort of a supplementary section on dialect or like he has a bunch of these dialect figure it out well he gives rules for dialects but not too many examples you know he doesn't have any examples but he has i think it's mostly he just has pronunciation yeah which i mean a lot of people don't even go that far a lot of people don't do dialects at all but he has quite a few yeah for me the interest in dialects there's rarely these mechanical sound changes as in oh by the way our <unk> go is different yeah mhm and that's usually more interesting to me it's like it's just a while to me even to students in a a really small example um where like spanish has spanish is simply to copy liver but french dozens and it's like you guys book from the same place [laughter] my example oh <unk> i mind yeah i i didn't believe i didn't believe the person who told me that i thought that they were just making it up to say something in class [laughter] ah if i actually like my my professor hadn't said act like you're making that out that doesn't make any sense at all yeah exactly [laughter] oh the other you might should do this [laughter] oh my god oh i think that happens here it's happened to it i i have observed it in my own idea elect uh particularly might could yeah yeah yeah [laughter] <unk> that ad ah well i did all it does just add another level of uncertainty but um it was so i i was i had a fellow fellow colleague with a graduate student at u._c._s._d. she's now uh a professor at <unk> you tip i wanna say uh she wrote a an entire paper on double models ah claiming that they were different and some important way um i <unk> i've been at least i can remember what that way it was no [laughter] [noise] so you didn't believe it okay yeah well i don't i don't know the might could it's so deeply into my subconsciously i think at some point i sometimes i just use it sort of informally but ah i don't know if i don't know exactly what i can't really think of what the distinction is even notice because <unk> <unk> right so i one thing wouldn't last thing i wanted to say about go mine that i've huh jade is it doesn't have the token disease that makes it afraid of anything modern [laughter] what do you mean does it have well it it has it gives it explains saturday math oh god anytime i okay i always hate and then em secretly jealous of anybody that's really complex math garbage in it because i hate math and to understand it [laughter] oh i forgot [laughter] um he has a lot of audio <unk> [noise] and a lot of them are my yeah where <unk> in the look in the sample tax and babble story has blonde by line audio engineering you're all play a little of the lord's prayer for you if i can get my stuff switch around oh is that would look into it [laughter] [laughter] okay anyway i just i just my eyes didn't even i tend to <unk> <unk> by the way i found i found the i'm not sure if this is a square ever a paper but i found i found the script you type in double model and black named kilpatrick k. i. l. p. n. t. r. i. c. k. um you'll find her paper on double mode of okay anyway um but yeah go ahead let's let's let's play this <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> that's the way back when knowing what are you wouldn't miss what i mean <unk> when you came on the show you say <unk> <unk> <unk> oh that is just incredible that's really good [noise] yeah he he's awesome job yeah it has a nice sound to it to me it sounds better than it looks right nah [laughter] um is it just me or do you get some a little bit of a slavic feel out of it i think uh <unk> might be just i was i was thinking celtic yeah more when i was thinking oh okay um so it's good and so often i mean certainly with any of my language is if i had to speak it i would speak rather slowly [noise] where's this is just juvenile long i i saw that yeah i'm terrible at my language a couple of times in her credit anything well um for me it depends on the language [noise] i i do yoga is fairly simple phonology it's not hard for me to get into it sometimes i bought some of the uh aspiration and stuff but mostly i can do it but um <unk> which if you saw the phonology would understand why it's just kind of bizarre and it always <unk> me up i can't i i've tried recording it and it i can't do it [laughter] i think what i caught up on that <unk> that you get that after [laughter] 'cause it's only sliding michelle mess it up and i <unk> [laughter] [laughter] i screwed up uh a tooth rocky recording i did for for david <unk> <unk> <unk> because of stress [laughter] oh yeah but you got the stress right there i i actually screwed up the stress on something that was like the very first um and it's like uh one of the very first full audio sample they did i stress something initially that should've been stressed finally some [laughter] ah i haven't really i was looking at us that [noise] um i'm probably one of the small number of people who saw the movie <unk> only because i had been reading about the language [laughter] um the only reason i thought yeah right and it was the sound samples that all from or did for the new york times magazine that convinced me i would want to hear more of the language and well i mean and it was quick and fluid i i think [noise] i mean <unk> the the second episode ever of this <unk> this <unk> this ah gas and the first one ever i was on was how do you promote your calling do excellent sounds samples i think that was certainly attract attention [laughter] yes it was um and <unk> did do that and also there was a lot of stuff on language log about it even actually just it just posted on language log with uh very basic sketch of not be yeah i i there was a reason for that it was because um there was a much earlier host on language law that um with uh it was kind of attacking the movie appetizer uh this is well before it came out um and i think it was um it was one of the guys that uh that invited him to post on there because they were also talking a little bit about language but this is again before anybody it's you know <unk> uh that was a long time ago yeah that happened but actually i think i saw that post and it was it didn't speak negatively about the the fact that they were making a language forest book positively on that but they were they were speaking negatively about the like the <unk> [noise] um <unk> that is definitely in that movie oh yeah [laughter] massively so um in a way to good sound samples yes that's our advice and um any way before we do any more um tangential discussion that i'm going to have to cut out [laughter] [noise] why don't we do some uh feedback so national feedback song but okay we need i i <unk> i have special feedback strong well uh my <unk> at first i wanted to do bumper sure this pot cash but i ended up not doing them and works anyway so uh we we mentioned a couple of episodes back <unk> having having some trouble and he made a comment on that episode he says good news i was at my check up tuesday and my kidneys are packing up now i got more than half a kidney <unk> sustaining me so that's that's positive news that's nice yeah yeah um so go go <unk> and uh and we have <unk> emails i wanted to say um james campbell said enjoyed <unk> twenty six a great deal no offense but the editing definitely helps the listener experienced the whole thing clothes so much better just up there and say yes no offense taken because i am not a professional audio editor and the guy who volunteer do that that is awesome [noise] actually he he does he does a lot of video editing i don't know if he's a professional but he's certainly much more experience than our um and then he says and yes it looks like bask does have a <unk> system and that pretty saying one to boot [noise] for a truly twisted <unk> counting system see danish a system that was borrowed into influenced ferries with further extraordinary <unk> although it looks like ferries has largely change over to it <unk> now we're gonna have to look i i want to <unk> <unk> <unk> we're [laughter] we're gonna have to do an episode on <unk> <unk> uh [laughter] i [laughter] yeah as area [laughter] [laughter] oh uh number about danish mean crazy what is it there was <unk> videos talking about i think it but it's it's danish and somebody being <unk> and a danish they're crazy over in the day and make fun of it yes uh but anyway um and we have another email that i want to get to hear [noise] way back william mentioned using low tech and lick to create documents <unk> quicker action i've used lick but apparently william had never heard of it before i mentioned it but i don't know i've <unk> i've heard of it i just don't use it you don't use it okay no but i use lick but william doesn't but um i responded at the time to say i was crying those out but i am struggling to figure out how i would convert spreadsheet <unk> con into dictionary form and wondered william had any insight or ideas of how i can do this right now my licks con is a dual dock spreadsheet several columns were pronunciation english equivalents word type notes et cetera uh i would love to be able to present this and <unk> format with nicer longer descriptions on a uniform style thanks again for the pot casting your shirt and so i think the language in general um well it was their trust you williams whole throat you but first i'm going to say i can't think of any way to do it except by hand but well right so there's by hand um i if i had done this would export the spreadsheet into <unk> and write a computer program [laughter] to rip it apart and spit it out in the tech format mm for your bones hearing to do that no i'm not [laughter] [noise] what i'm [noise] actually i didn't know that would be very hard um but if you're not a programmer then i don't know of any nice way to do that yeah you might just be stuck with doing it you might be stuck with with copy and paste and and we can um over the last few months i have refined attack <unk> macro that i've written myself in the tech that helped me set up a dictionary in a reasonably nice way [noise] so you know maybe i could make those available for people to use it they want to do if they like the format that would be i would like to do that because i take a look at it honoring <unk> thing that i've done in in in the tech but i nobody wants to look at the low tech code itself they just want to see the examples of how to use it because the tech programming is kind of harry black magic [laughter] um so you guys don't need to look at that part but just seeing if the format is nice yeah i mean <unk> you know that i'd like scared to <unk> <unk> exactly right mhm yeah i'm just going to take this out and say i hate spreadsheets for dictionaries yeah it's a pain there's just no there's just no decent way people even recently somebody is trying to to create a program that will create a nice warm at a dictionary but none of them have everything you want [laughter] well i read um like a book i ride 'em like a book right i i think that's right i i for a while i had fantasies about [noise] you know the grand unified <unk> online dictionary program the problem is if you invent an isolating language heavily motivated by tie your needs are altogether different than somebody who's motivated by i don't know <unk> the neat things you need to talk about the things you need to include the points you need to make are completely different <unk> and i don't know how you make a general tool that can do that yeah you'd have to you know you'd have to do i don't know if you if you use like yeah but i think we're a death i use pages for macs but when you open it up it'll the very first time it'll say used one of these fancy template send you click uh no i just went blank document but that's essentially what kind of unified online dictionary would have to do it would probably have to create sample tablets and you start with one of those that makes sense that makes sense yeah doing template that that that does make sense and then once you define your template then you have the fields you have to fill em yeah yeah yeah yeah it gets <unk> it's it's a tough problem it's a problem [noise] [noise] right so i'm aware of one but i'm more of several failed projects to make a web tools to do this [noise] and one independent program that i don't know using dot net or something [noise] um [noise] to do this there was what was the corpus in dictionary <unk> yeah alex that alex thinkers in charge of that he's still threatening to do it that that <unk> originally written what's a boat divine rent or whatever the <unk> guy it started off as like it started off it's life i'm sorry current too yeah yeah yeah right curse started off with some python program and then it moved to german guy were died and then i knew that that the <unk> um <unk> somebody was trying to do the web one mm <unk> uh he's he's um he's dutch um and actually i thought he was still working on it no i think it it passed into the hands of someone else well he keeps talking about it and we have um yeah um yeah and we have um [noise] i think um it's current through you're thinking oh right that was in ruby but it hasn't been much dealt with recently as far as i understand where i could have sworn we actually had [noise] as a second [noise] i'm interested to look good so i have all sorts of ideas about how the should run and though i can program i am not a programmer i do not want to write this and god help me be responsible for it um for other people use it well yeah but uh the the thing that um oh it's not it's not correct it's um dictionary dot com like more [laughter] yeah ah um okay we can continue this talking about dictionaries a little bit after the show i think right because we're at an hour and seventeen minutes okay [laughter] so i know that i was just saying if you can't write a program if you don't have the programming experience that you're gonna have to do it by hand but i will i promise to bundle up some of my <unk> earlier tonight neglected to do that so i will do that this time yeah so anyway plus plus somebody just brought me some food anyway but um [laughter] uh we should we can kind of <unk> continue this discussion later after work but um for now i think we should uh wrap up the show and uh i'm sorry to stop everybody and i was gonna say start with the gas david you do you have any words of wisdom final words wisdom um i guess uh i guess pretty much if you're making a naturalistic language start with start with stuff and then they'll start at time x. mind that's why you're not a time it [noise] okay [noise] and ah william uh no i don't really have wisdom i'm still i'm still trying to breeze [laughter] okay bianca had enough rest and just keep on <unk> um [noise] now i don't have any okay [noise] ah i was hoping william and have one is is nice <unk> anyway i don't i didn't sorry um then i'm going to say happy <unk> thank you for listening to con library you can find all our episodes and show notes as well as subscribed to r. i. too or are assess speeds through con larry dot <unk> dot org you can also like our face book page or follow at con library on put her if you would like to contact us with corrections comets questions or suggestions or even suggest your own caught lying is a future please a male <unk> angry at g. e. mail dot com or call in to our new voicemail lard three zero four eight seven three six to eight one [noise] we also have a handy suggestions war on our side or was it in mine then during the day is mm mm mm mm mm [noise] [noise] that's a terrible test <unk> eat a raw onion english test okay eating a raw onion is not really a uh a great thing but hook onions that er you know two or something that's that's i had some flavor largest <unk> the world to survive on foods that are poisonous if you eat them raw judging an onion by how it tastes ross are really bad test like um raw garlic is incredibly incredibly spicy yeah and that's actually one of the things that makes it interesting to me but when you are like i did the cat so how'd you feel about <unk> say i'd <unk> i'd have to google it oh i see what you're talking about well you <unk> <unk> there's used an indian food [laughter] i do like indian food [laughter] right [laughter] apparently for some reason certain cast i think it's the drama cast is not supposed to eat onions so maybe you're regarded brahmin students did they use <unk> which has much the same effect it's the juice from extracted from the roots of discipline incredibly pungent plant [laughter] i think the germans colored devils fart cannot tightened thing that i really should've tells you guys have <unk> um i got married like jerry <unk> you'll have to <unk> [laughter] oh dear [laughter] [noise] well what's your new last name which egg shell manage that won the oscar richards whoa yeah i think it was it i don't have to ask someone has taken <unk> i don't have to deal with ah <unk> ah gee clusters so but i i see what you mean it's a it's a home organic uh uh bealer uh nasal stop cluster failing of english or soccer for years all it is just pronounce it like you're a beagle <unk> i didn't catch all of the onion rant on i caught [laughter] <unk> [laughter] off at us going over there [noise] okay i'm gonna have to edit out coughing so oh

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. correlatives
  5. Gomain
  6. indefinites
  7. language
  8. linguistics

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 28 “Correlatives” (well, mostly indefinites) (last edited 2017-09-06 17:46:48 by TranscriBot)