Conlangery #32: Evidentials

Conlangery #32: Evidentials

Published: Mon, 09 Jan 2012 17:00:07 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 <unk> [noise] one not enough to <unk> uh <unk> <unk> oh wow [noise] bumps come to coddle angry cash about construction languages and the people who grabbed a mind george carlin [noise] with us and england is the lovely bianca richard [noise] and [noise] over in the great state of wisconsin we have [noise] <unk> [noise] i think my my the uh the trick is and this has happened to me with other things as well is to keep taking the name bianca mango and actually stay your name [noise] and that happens to me all the time i think the wrong thing and then i say the rights there's some deep message there but i'm not sure what it is yeah um oh there's something i want to say because um the recent episode of um <unk> you're marrying pot cash and when the language made difficult um they confessed there <unk> tendencies and i went to confess think most of the time my rage is directed prescriptions so i don't have that much but one thing that does slightly annoy me and i think i'm fairly justified this is the use of literally for meanings other than literally you mean you know what i mean like like in in touch the fire yeah it's a losing battle though you didn't lose those it's a losing battle but you know losing battle for the for the for the moment while it's still in transition it seems like it it it's one thing that does have the potential to cause confusion lately if i say the balance and literally fifty feet tall you're going to be confused and think they were actually fifty feet tall well most of the time context will figure well um will this and beg you wait that like if you're not stupid but [laughter] it's very <unk> about assuming the stupidity of your [laughter] but there are cases where it could actually like when you're making not a ridiculous playing like claim that could be true maybe you shouldn't use it when you're in a court of law definitely not true yeah i just it's that's a very popular <unk> right now it's hard for me to get excited about [noise] i don't know you know have any <unk> i know <unk> has things that i don't know her well that's true like apostrophe so every <unk> every time someone stuff led ron i'm secretly happy because it's true <unk> and that maybe one day enough people spell it wrong that it'll become right [laughter] so george of course has to edit now um honestly right now i'm sick of articles about vocal fry it's like suddenly friends of mine who have no interest in languages are like oh i read this article about this thing is vocal fry like oh my god [noise] i blink boyne boyne what is vocal fry freaky boys oh as i'd like to call it <unk> when you start hearing it it's so creepy founding but it's everywhere people use <unk> like one day like you know it'll be all you have to okay you just started saying <unk> creaky voices is creepy and then right as you were talking william started talking and he had a little bit of <unk> i <unk> all the time and it <unk> like there was one day like just <unk> and you start hearing something like that i've had a horrible day when i started <unk> [laughter] <unk> i call it i i hear aspiration all the time it comes from studying mandarin [laughter] yeah that'll do it i haven't studied mandarin and one day it was just like i don't understand that for a new one i don't know is that it's here [laughter] yeah it's it's like medical students have problems where they go through a period where they think they have every new disease they've discovered or or learned about <unk> every once in a while um one thing that that drives me nuts is when people current events spanish names with and and english and in american english accent and they do the the um the uh <unk> be flapping oh honestly that irritates me less than someone who has a spanish accent only for spanish names [laughter] and then i went to <unk> like but you don't know you're speaking english you don't need to use that yeah i i'm somewhat [noise] i i do that i also print outs um mandarin names as mandarin yeah but you're not speaking mandarin you should maybe not do that anyway that's a little <unk> okay when i when i run into a name like <unk> when the the the the the sort of english as a nation of that for most people is lou which could be two other different chinese names [laughter] all right but how do you pronounce the name of the capital of china <unk> right so i will just say i i do not if it's a popular thing like that where there's already an english <unk> i would go with english you say beijing with no the the higher foreign <unk> no no no no that that ah [laughter] i see i wouldn't do that but i say <unk> alright well maybe we should talk about our topic can we can sit here <unk> all day [laughter] sorry yes yes christmas special everything we don't like [laughter] i like um actually i think we already have christmas but anyway well why don't we actually moved on and actually talk about something ah relevant um so today our topic is evident charles uh ever natural so evident charles are sort of uh another kind of move it's mainly determining how you know the information that your state um so william and your notes here he said the most common thing is to say reported speech and then everything else right yeah well i want to disagree a little bit with one thing you just said [noise] while it's true so evident jewels all language can mark the source of evidence um in english you can say i heard that the senator has had an affair that's yeah you're right you're right so when we talk about <unk> evidence reality we're talking about the situation where this process of saying how you know what you know is dramatic <unk> it's not an independent phrase anymore it's some piece of grammar and sometimes the evidence reality gets the gloves together it was tense aspect or mood but sometimes independent and it's not quite a mood most um <unk> moods are sort of judgments about the quality of the information and evident jewels only tell you where it's coming from yeah i mean on the mood scare they will be you know the mood and pass and then <unk> in my mind would be as an inch or they don't feel like a <unk> yeah they they can and and we don't have the time to get into this but mood marking in evidence marking can coworker or not <unk> there's all sorts of very complicated things that can happen there [noise] um so right the most common evidence she'll system on the planet um is a simple to weigh distinction and it distinguishes reported or indirect information and everything else okay so go ahead [noise] so wait a minute [noise] reported <unk> everything else so are you do you mean by reported it's specifically something you learn from another person right okay well it can be so <unk> you can either be quoting someone else's words just gets there's many many different kinds of be system so another common to waste split is direct and indirect mhm correct is everything that you have personally experienced somehow an indirect in coop includes things like stuff you learn from people or um you're making infringe based on evidence okay so if i look out my window in the morning and i see a bunch of snow i can say oh it snowed last night or it must've snow last night it's obvious but because i'm not actually seeing it i didn't observe it snowing last night i'm working from an influence [noise] anyway so reported it's a common thing i tend to call it a hearsay but then she'll write your your reporting what someone else told you [noise] and sometimes better trickled hearsay there's direct perception of some sort [noise] um the most common three way distinction has direct hearsay and stop position so that says that you're inferring things like i talked about this no you're you're using some evidence to make an infringement what happened [noise] um so languages like pure ha do that <unk> has that three way distinction tell i wonder how something like he said that he saw <unk> behind the state i something how would that let 'cause it seems like it would have to get fat lines <unk> inside right so evident chills and subordinate clauses is high black magic [laughter] frequently it's not permitted [noise] it doesn't happen um however when you have a language like tibetan where you have no choice is impossible to state a verb without <unk> including some sort of evidence will marking then they have conventions about how that works [noise] i'm not even touch that i find the whole idea of evidence wasn't supporting clauses very confusing [laughter] well [noise] um <unk> don't have to exist in your entire verb system so it might be admitted in some <unk> for example and evidence <unk> for the future doesn't make much sense yeah nothing obviously if you are talking about the future than you everything you're saying is sufficient [noise] right but um you can do things like you know bob will be at the store i can't there's no evidence for that but the piece of information itself that i'm reporting i can still mark with hearsay <unk> to say that i've heard from someone that he's going to the store do <unk> ever end up doing like double duty the way that sometimes <unk> uh <unk> can be um can be sort of co opted to show tense typically evidence <unk> are other things grammatical highest maybe this could happen i have no doubt that there's some language where uh hearsay evidence <unk> has collapsed in with some sort of mood marking that also indicates the future i would i would not be surprised that exist i don't know one offhand um but i can't think of one [noise] um so we have plenty of languages that only distinguish evidence in the past turkish is it pretty common example um in some languages um if there's a <unk> a core arguments either this subject to direct object is first person that might also remove any need for evidence of marketing 'cause it's kinda redundant yeah presumably i always have direct um experience of what it is i've done but if i did and then the only <unk> been unless i was sleepwalking than i experienced it directly which opens the possibility of using <unk> with the first person kind of ironically yeah like you know mark twain apparently i died right i've heard that could be like the hang of uh apparently i might have done something parents yeah right [laughter] right so they're they're more common in the past they may or may not interact with your <unk> aspect and mood marking um uh one of the paper one of the things that we have for this show is a link to a gigantic collection of papers that came out of a conference [noise] which is a really wonderful resource for all sorts of interesting stuff about evidence rules and you can be does to find out some of all of the ins and outs because as always we don't have time to cover yeah we'll we'll we'll link those resources we we got some really great resources on this because like william dug up some publicly available papers it's it's a it's a great thing because for me i first learned about evidence geology um long before there was widespread used to the internet and i can go to the internet get papers and that was done because i could actually buy a book and she's got her her her large chunk of evidence was that was my first exposure to that idea but oh of course as we know <unk> are <unk> hey typical typical but they've had like i said i mean they've had a strong impact on other languages close bond with quill also appear to have learned about and borrowed evidence was from um from from <unk> um it's um it's a little bit larger than average but we can talk a little bit more about it but it's it's not it's not as strangers i once thought yeah um it's interesting the the things um i think it's just a few particular ones in late on that make me knowing like we mentioned when we were <unk> there was one <unk> that was socially awkward because it required you to say that you got information for months and <unk> mhm uh yeah i don't know of any natural language that make that distinction although we can talk about that sort of pragmatic and sort of input catchers that come with <unk> with some using different um evidence pills and different systems i could see it coming pragmatically where you would you would use a hearsay um you might use a hearsay evidence role in uh in uh <unk> with a particular epidemic mood or with a particular structure in order to say that sort of in a roundabout way but i wouldn't see it being a specific epidural but i'm not quite sure where you're going with that [laughter] i'm not sure where i was going with it either but i had an <unk> in it and he got on its way um [noise] so uh one thing that you can do so i guess i'd subordinate clauses i have no idea how you would use the evidence was with us that that's still like magic to me um [laughter] you don't normally use evidence losing questions um however there are some language is that if you use some indirect evidence <unk> in the question then it contractual question like what on earth is that right in a situation where you're asking a question because not only do not know the answer you don't expect anyone else to the answer either okay right that sort of it's not a hypothetical question because you only asked that when everyone knows what's going on it's just sort of contractual question where you you don't know when you don't think anyone else does either the influential or the hearsay if an actual used in questions like that is uh is is is one way to indicate that sort of question um all of this can interact in funny ways with this great new term called <unk> which was i think invented within the last decade and a mirror too is yet another kind of marketing to indicate that a piece of information is new and surprising um the <unk> the article is hysterical because it has this the example sentence your daughter plays piano well [laughter] wow she doesn't suck um oh i think i remember that in class as well right so that can interact with evidence reality um interesting ways to one question i had when i was collecting notes and like how do you talk about dreams 'cause law done very strangely has an evidence we'll just for dreams but how does it happened in other languages were simpler systems and it can go either way you can either be direct evidence <unk> 'cause you're seeing it yourself or it can be hearsay which is kind of an indirect you know pulling back saying yes i know what i'm talking about is not real <unk> i wonder i mean game right i think i think um i don't know if this has any bearing on natural languages but with <unk> you could <unk> <unk> and and consider how your culture views dreams whether they think of them as short fanatic or as as something that could be true and another realm or whether they just or or or they're they're more scientific about it just <unk> they don't even try and plus i guess <unk> <unk> that's produced by a passion i something that comes to the <unk> ah yeah and again that's just like if you want to get all <unk> with your <unk> i'm not saying that there would be 'cause i wouldn't know of any actual correlation between culture and language in that area [laughter] yeah i'm not sure any windows um the bible for the subject of evidence geology is written by alexandra involved um and she talks about dreams a little bit um but one of the [noise] one of the articles in the link we have um has an entire article about different languages handling and dreams unfortunately um it's in languages that don't have really nice over i've been in geology markings so [noise] still um so how <unk> well let's talk about the pragmatic for a little bit before we get to the morphology [noise] not every group interpret a hearsay evidence <unk> hussein in some cultures if you use a hearsay that bolster the troops that's me saying i'm not making crap up someone else said it too mhm so using like hearsay evidence <unk> in fact strengthens um the speakers assertion of the truth of the matter [noise] in other places a speaker will use that to distance himself from the truth of a situation [noise] um so i one of the examples i saw it and i don't even remember the paper is in a society which has changed over time and a young guy asks his grandmother hey did you guys used to wear the veil in public and she said no we didn't <unk> with the <unk> the hearsay evidence <unk> she obviously directly experienced that but since the social you know social mores have changed she distances yourself a little bit from from what the past practice was by using hearsay evidence <unk> [noise] so i know <unk> those things you said about you know a lot done you don't want to have to express this information necessarily about how you come by your information that might be a little awkward but different cultures seem to to take take take that in different ways [noise] yeah i mean <unk> that's the reason that you know if you're <unk> you're not giving away too much [laughter] <unk> yeah [noise] um [noise] so in <unk> the influential sort of <unk> um [noise] evidence <unk> is used when the speaker has really strong confidence in the statement so it's less hypothetical sounding it's you're making a judgment from evidence but you still have great confidence in it so [noise] within your language if you're describing your own language and you've decided to go with the evidence was make sure that you're clear about all the different ways they can be used what the implication is to the listeners it's like a whole lot of other sort of <unk> things we've talked about even though sort of in theory we have the standard categories that we can file things under in practice the pragmatic so dumb vary from language from language yeah they they rely on that happens i mean yeah i like going to have a set number of <unk> but you have the <unk> so <unk> how are they going to take care of it has to do the past and i <unk> [laughter] yes actually a little bit like mood in that way because mood mood is even more crazy about um different people sort of defining mood a little bit differently from language or my language but sure absolutely have you [noise] it's just i think [noise] especially for <unk> particular generation they see that loud on list or the same list that has been expanded in los bond or [noise] um is quill and then you start with those and sort of assume what those things mean i'm hoping people can think about those little bit more [laughter] so we've been talking about a few kinds of evidence <unk> we've talked about how there's direct versus indirect systems [noise] we've talked about direct experience versus hearsay versus supposition um in terms of the direct experience there's some additional subtleties available there [noise] um the default perception for direct experience i've been <unk> site that makes sense yeah yeah well you know site is the primary sets for human beings uh <unk> i mean how much time <unk> <unk> it's ridiculous [laughter] so it's like the first one and then if you're going to distinguish between site and the other's at all it will be site and all other kinds of century and put a small number of languages having auditory and <unk> at least one language i've seen one can make an argument that it has an old factory evidence <unk> or is it in the process of invent [laughter] which is kind of gross honestly but there it is [laughter] i have evidence that there was a turkey walking through yeah i'd i don't know um i think i hold on one tried to invent a language for bears and they included uh hearing and old factory epidemic charles sure that makes <unk> [laughter] you have any i don't know it's the first language or did you wind here or <unk> <unk> might have had oh factor that lady had what class no he he just had sort of colors of smell oh that's right the <unk> which we never actually got into 'cause i couldn't find the <unk> but um so right so visual first and then if you're gonna make distinctions you going to start with visual and move on um for the first for the direct experience that can sometimes be differentiated by sort of the most general direct evidence just says either i've witnessed it's or somehow experienced it myself [noise] the subtleties that come in you can either say that you did something yourself or that you were on the receiving end of of some unpleasant action or [laughter] but anyway you were a passive something happened to you kind of action um or you can talk about internal states like i'm <unk> <unk> you know that sort of very direct experience might be separated out um individual um <unk> small number of languages heaven evidence that says that something is commonplace knowledge it's assumed mhm um and some language just make a difference between a hearsay evidence <unk> evidence will and i have to be honest i don't understand what the difference with those was oh question came and go back short guy is kind of like a general knowledge <unk> <unk> yeah they say i'm gonna say if <unk> <unk> <unk> oh yeah yeah well it's not that it's the same same effect and kind of <unk> yeah <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah there there is there is that particular pejorative application so yeah [noise] <unk> universally [laughter] and i think that's it i mean some languages and and we can be the article is a list of all these different systems which is the tax on to me that it can fall came up with but i don't have access to her book which is expensive these days so i don't know what all they mean some of them have multiple influential or multiple reported of hearsay on that i don't know what the distinction as meetings or they're just given numbers in french will one infringe will do do not tell me what they mean maybe it's like <unk> like i got it from home and he had that <unk> that yeah i i think some languages make the distinction between bob told me something that he experience versus bob told me something that you heard from someone else yeah wow that's that's getting a little ah complicated that's getting hard to keep track of yeah yeah although uh gossip [laughter] but gossiping it's a thing going around that you might have been meaning [laughter] the senator <unk> hanging out with some <unk> yeah um so i'm looking here the list of the evidence was of <unk> which is a well caution language from the pacific northwest and has six [noise] it has a hearsay evidence <unk> <unk> it has non indicative hearsay which you use in subordinate clauses questions and contra factual mhm so that's into here's where you're you're having to do to particles doing the same thing but one for different moods you have an auditory um evidence will you have this i love this one so much to talk [noise] uncertain visual evidence as trying to make up something at a distance [laughter] this is useful in a place that has a lot of fog inference from physical evidence this is the snow example and then in for the probability mhm so you know maybe he's probably singing based on some sort of evidence and this is the language that appears to be in the process of turning it stuff <unk> into um [noise] and uh uh an old factory evidence will probably singing based on the nice coming out of your face [laughter] base of the hard part of his house [noise] yeah <unk> okay so do you want to move onto the morphology yeah where do we i think we've if people want to know more about this obviously they can look it up papers you yeah yeah and so many so many little things to think about um <unk> and stuff [laughter] so you're most languages i think it's safe to say have evidence reality as an additional thing a small number do have it as an intrinsic part of the tents aspect moods system uh tibetan is my favorite example where it's synthetic right you can't pull evidence will marking on have you ever been anyway 'cause to to use the <unk> all you have to use evidence market but you might have some sort of a gluten due process instead yeah and uh so that's one way to do it that was in the um in fact um sort of the the walls chapter that was sort of the the second most common but <unk> <unk> far beyond behind um where you have just uh uh uh an ethics are click on the river right um sort of rarely you can have no it wasn't even second because walls puts their stupid things out of water [laughter] but it was it's it's not terribly common right it does happen but it seems a little unusual and i think part of this is um a number of these evidence shows are so obviously related to other words right here's the evidence <unk> is very frequently and obviously related to a phrase or a verbal meaning to speak oh okay right so the grammatical is asian of they use it seems to lend itself to little particles were little and herbs and things <unk> less than becoming a fully integrated part of what what i find interesting is so wild here lists <unk> part of the tent system separate particle and very very rarely motor morphine also it to the <unk> at least by their count mix system so combinations of one or two of these or or two or three of these are very rare oh okay so i was going to give them so we talked about the the part of the verb your other choice are either what i call <unk> particles or free range particles [laughter] [laughter] so the articles or the this little either a clinic or separate word that can go anywhere mhm um for example catch <unk> um with catch what has one interesting little rule is the critics could happen on anywhere in the sentence so long as it doesn't come after the verb so doesn't so long as that word is not following the verb so every word up to the verb can take the the evidence of marketing but after that you can't huh that's interesting [noise] um and <unk> so <unk> was uh a grand old classes to notice that a bunch of languages have this pattern where certain kinds of clicks always happen after the first word in the sentence mm so a large number of ancient greek conjunctions happened second in your sentence <unk> and and it makes sense right the first word in a clause is really important and you have all these clerics who can't take their own stressed accent so they need help from someone so they sort of pile up after the first stress sparing word in your claws mhm [noise] um so that's about it on a political [noise] um and that can either typically written it's a quick but might be written separately um so those are your choices part of the verb system inextricably bomb to <unk> or a free range particle mhm so yeah and it just sort of <unk> you can <unk> so you could put it either knew there or either after the first word or have it be wherever yeah or they're not different language is going to have different rules they might go to the end of the sentence they might <unk> or someplace in particular alright i'm sure there are um pragmatic implications jew how catch decides to attach it's <unk> i just don't know what those are okay i'm sure every language is going to have their own thing um typically if you if one of your you one of your options can be too not mark evidence reality overtly at all and the default assumption that is usually to say that this is a direct evidence <unk> oh okay right so if you have evidence <unk> and you say that you must use them all we used in every sentence the situation where there is no overt morphine is usually to be interpreted as direct evidence okay um i'm sure that there's there's per mack matt situations 'cause you don't want to be like telling a story and half to put the um hearsay a potential everywhere right some in some languages you would absolutely put uh here's the evidence will after every claws somehow it in every clause in other languages the evidence is required but it operates it a larger level okay like will called them paragraphs right that they're spoken paragraphs like a particular little set incident in the tail you would use the hearsay evidence and when you move onto the next incident and a story you use the hearsay evidence <unk> again and again and again [noise] but in a language that says you must use evidence was always in indicative sentences no you'll you'll hear it in every single claws wow yeah at least unless it's a story that happened to the mall i know direct yes unless <unk> the story happened to you than you would use the direct although again if it was a difficult story you might use indirect because you don't yeah i missed a story about i don't know getting hit by a car [laughter] which is is that like the some of that pragmatic yeah you might you might distance yourself a little bit from uh by using hearsay it's interesting um how <unk> like i was going through the woods and i felt bad and then i <unk> [laughter] awesome right but if that seems to you know if your culture objective bragging but you might you might be [laughter] i had a cousin who killed up there when she was twelve [noise] with a gun yes good lord <unk> <unk> i didn't know you know farm kid on a tractor can reeks some serious mischief by accident i watch him well she lives out deer hunting i think and bears i grew up on her oh yeah okay alright so she can i'm not sure which evidence she'll she would want to use for that store but ah anyway let's let's get back [laughter] i've been drills that [laughter] um and again so this is another one of those distinctions in some languages you must use <unk> fault [noise] excuse me all the time and other languages they operate at a much larger old level right you use them periodically to reassert um the evidence will he wants you mark correlate with the the morphology i think <unk> obviously if it is incorporated into the tenth system then then you then you can't yeah there's no option yeah um well i think we've we've talked plenty about <unk> and sort of covered every different angle that people want i i i encourage people to go to the papers that um william found you'll find links in our show notes and uh you know if you want to work on us then then um read those and get a little bit more information and you know like everything you know think think carefully about what you want to do with these and if you if you want them in particular language but you know [laughter] um i think i think he's involved says that about a quarter of all human languages have evidence will systems of some sort [noise] just walls give numbers on how many uh <unk> i don't remember walls in their sample it was let's see [laughter] looks like walls has even more it says it <unk> it says um walls <unk> has to be skewed <unk> that guy's right because it has one eighty eight one out of work eighteen having no grammatical potentials so so it's sort of a half well over half that's interesting yeah i don't know who to believe anyway it's more common probably than most of us think yeah even if even if even if it's only a quarter so so are we to court and a half yeah it's it's not crazy uncommon yeah so yeah you can you can throw it and it's not it's not like clicks or <unk> yes it's not exotic clicks [laughter] but you know it's a tough it's seems like a fun way to spice up your your um language and also had something that you can use pragmatically yeah anyway well tonight now <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> ethnic <unk> interesting yeah okay yeah right and the <unk> [laughter] you're right you're <unk> from the [laughter] and now let's move on to our featured <unk> which um we'll suggested to us it is carlos and so i really actually david mentioned this to us after recording the show that he <unk> that's right and i was embarrassed to have forgotten 'til awesome it was let's see created by what's the name of the guy um it's always confusing to me because so all right so there are different reasons people con world sometimes they're doing it for books sometimes they're doing it for a role playing game [noise] and to lessened is an example of what i like to think of as <unk> for performance art it is a micro nation mhm so when he was a teenager in the late seventies early eighties he declared his bedroom and independent sovereign nation okay and um he started issuing a newspaper hand produced in this language he was inventing and once the internet appeared people started hearing about this and joining it so he was on the net early this guy by the name his by the by the way his name is robert ben madison right it's always confusing to me that milwaukee can tainted sovereign nation but his last name is madison [laughter] right that's only confusing probably for somebody from wisconsin um [noise] so over the course of his life various linguistic interests of his has influenced the development of this enormous constructed language huge huge of a cab you larry a hundred and twenty thousand words well it's a hundred and twenty thousand words <unk> well he tends to get the impression create one off mondo words for concepts like love at first sight ah [noise] you know so [laughter] oh okay well what what's weird about <unk> is it got some press like wired magazine talked about this whole micro nation <unk> subsequently and i learned this while doing research for the show there had been to <unk> [laughter] <unk> king abdicated in favor of his wife's grandson and then there was a schism after that and so there are currently on the <unk> three separate entities answering to this micro nation named <unk> [laughter] [laughter] [noise] um in addition to that one of <unk> caused the language communities to split a little bit although now there is an organization that tries to bring the two different groups together um to me the most astonishing thing about till austin and we can talk about the details of it in a second here is from time to time their language committee issues proclamations about spelling reforms mhm the documents er in the <unk> and language [laughter] and then translated into english or whatever i was in languages <unk> no well i don't know what they need more spelling reforms because this filing system so damn sense [laughter] george swear [laughter] i think that's probably has <unk> the whole thing well except for the profanity at the federal which doesn't count [laughter] well i i'm not going to edit god damn because um my mother which is something for you to edit well you already have my my mom would <unk> would say differently but i don't take it as that strong in any way but um no i can't figure out what his phonology is because he doesn't mention the phonology directly and run you look at how the spelling system works it's just like bizarre multiple letters have there there are several letters that have multiple different realizations and cutting <unk> eh on the front page of the website um ethics wag g. r. h. e. l. i. <unk> yes yeah i think that <unk> grass i guess it would be as g. l. age is actually the power to lateral mhm fat whatever reason so right like i like it's <unk> yeah yes and and like i said last time it's like the italian or <unk> met up with the portuguese or thought your feet and decided to get married i'd say pick one out there like instead of getting married they decided to stick to have that just have like one of those <unk> like <unk> it's like she arrived connect that coming out like that right so <unk> the current our dog is much improve because there was if you look at the tossing language article on that we can you can see <unk> and post two thousand seven reforms <unk> are you the spelling was much worse um before that reform and and i think part of this is a development of right this was a teenager in his room who thinks creating a sovereign nation and doing a newspaper in an article in in a language that no one bought him can read right we're dealing with a great deal of enthusiasm and time and a little more than a little eccentricity um that is not conducive to rational writing systems [laughter] that is true in my opinion it's not conducive to rationality in general but anyway i was on line game things it's just like the whole <unk> <unk> <unk> it's funny no it's great [laughter] um for example if you want to you can go to amazon and buy a complete guided there's lots of language poster form recently updated yeah um another another thing ah looking at his grammar is presented on line everything written like he's like making your critique of english and fixing problems with it because every single thing he was like you know english does it this way and that's crap so i'm gonna do it the other another way [noise] there is about <unk> this weird kind of not quite to the same level of obnoxious boosters and you get in an <unk> but almost [laughter] even p._t. article has lines that i see that are on their website like this is the most famous calming ever no well i wonder if the <unk> artistic languages in the world [laughter] and i kind of <unk> like you too i had never heard of the language both david i knew about it because it's been around since forever mhm and it looks like there is an entire community of people attracted to this [noise] performance art piece of the micro cash and [noise] who learn the language but they're <unk> they're like putting on language people they have nothing to do the rest of the world [laughter] and yet being and being in an article in wired in two thousand is not that does not make you famous no now <unk> i think they might actually made the times but even you know doing that one's is not enough to to genuinely be famous i i think [noise] anyway [noise] so the language despite initial high levels of weirdness has overtime settled into being kind of a <unk> uh but i mean this is a re imagined romance language yes it yeah very clearly i when i whenever i look at vocabulary it's very obvious but <unk> that's in here because i can i can literally understand have put words just because i knew spanish or right right and if you can cope with the fact that s. a. m. i. g. s. h. a. as pronounce the media [noise] [laughter] yeah right yeah which is not house what's not precisely like spanish but well it's more like attack whatever it's it's so obviously um yeah it's if it's obviously the romance and he has <unk> for a desk <unk> three um but yeah anyway i'm not you're going to like go through his numbers are very obviously yeah <unk> there's one or two were just <unk> the funky thing is every once in a while you're looking long it's like romance romance romance and then some weirdness appears out of nowhere to to surprise you oh you have uh like nineteen [noise] i don't know what it looks like it's derived from like one less than twenty shorten than being a ah a regular [noise] and uh that's perfectly expected yeah and it's not unusual but it's yeah that's that's one thing that takes it a little bit away from romance and then there's other things you know the verb system is comparatively simple he's got a few irregular <unk> how many nineteen fifty [noise] not too many mhm um i am obsessed by some of the linguistic terminology so for example it has a perfect but for some reason all their documentation they call it a perspective and cat is pretty common <unk> yeah oh except in the article than they actually caught a perfect so someone was getting confused there [noise] um i got to know i don't as eight in about twelve dollars an hour it's like <unk> sometimes yeah from <unk> asked now for like <unk> [laughter] oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah that and then i was like but we have <unk> and i think now anyway no he's he's confusing they the english one regular ah ah plural butts chronologically conditioned with multiple different yeah plural markers which is it's not it's it's <unk> to someone learning language they might as well be different [laughter] it doesn't matter there's still new stuff to to be learned [noise] he um but anyway it's not the same i mean on airlines well if it's not like <unk> yeah <unk> well that's true but it's it's still not as simple as it's just one thing well yeah i mean <unk> underlying lay you can say it's just one thing but but yeah you've learned it and colonel lost it shouldn't have to learn linguistics to honestly this is just pretty simple rom lying you know a romance created romance language um it has an enormous amount of effort and time over the years um there are huge texts <unk> available um including it looks like oh look [noise] they have songs with actual people singing them oh let's see where if you go under examples and if you look for in <unk> in as it is oh well let's let's uh played this and uh well if you don't want to do a song that someone translated the tell tale heart oh ryan <unk> uh like <unk> pro funding [noise] um and the translator apparently recorded him okay well i'll i'll i'll play just the first little but you guys can play a little bit on on your side too but um see [noise] <unk> ah had got alan <unk> u._c. kind of [noise] threats and they have us faith <unk> this is this must be have kids see that <unk> <unk> <unk> okay that's all i'm you know put up but uh you can listen to the rest of it yourself if you are really interested in but yeah that's a huge tax to translate and then record looking at the this is this is the entire text of <unk> looks like are you guys still there yeah yeah yeah it's it's it's a pretty remarkable accomplishment um for me i i don't find i mean the language is fine it's interesting enough it's a little too regular to really excite me um the monstrosity the vocabulary in itself is i think pretty intrinsically interesting <unk> all i can find is a good <unk> or something yeah yeah i i wanted to mention that though but that he has a search and a dictionary so i <unk> well you know yeah i agree with with the guy would sort of like to have i'd like i'd like to have that too but you know you can have a little fun i looked up computer and i come up with like nine different words that are tangentially related theaters but oh that's good so oh that is not a great dictionary yeah it's kind of it's kind of just um one word for one word yep you have a whole lot of stuff and well you know you know giving you gender at least but um yeah he has uh i wonder really how much how much of his <unk> really is um a lot of it looks kind of relaxing it does look kind of relaxing ah and that might be a uh uh miss feature of the dictionary and less of the language but yeah it's a little up it's a little [noise] not very exciting [noise] he does have this is interesting he has sort of compound terms for each of the [noise] i guess it's not too different from english 'cause it looks like he has like but he has compounds for each of the fingers yeah [noise] um and he has a special group for big toe i think that's not unusual i think that happens in other languages yeah but i <unk> i don't remember what it is really we used to have worked for being told that we lost <unk> automated out uh-huh oh wow that's interesting but something that i'm looking at flat [laughter] anyway [laughter] sounds like um <unk> if you i i think some people might find looking so under the tutorials parts of the the pull down menu and if you look at the <unk> the <unk> are very european and boring um <unk> have a good deal of that character as well but there are some other stuff that might be interesting for people who like to think about a matter of age don't processors yeah <unk> <unk> some some mildly interesting stuff here um [noise] i know i i think we've talked enough about [noise] i um i know there's some people out there who listen to those who prefer to hear more sort of grammar discussion and we talked a little bit about a lot more about just sort of ancillary stuff about the micro nation but you know you can get older you can grab them radical information if you if you want to read through his grammar and and look at it i don't think it's terribly interesting [laughter] but we're gonna get official letters from the government one of <unk> maybe several of the governments of to lost though [laughter] so testing are are are well let's if i find <unk> send it to <unk> female but oh man she had a chance they didn't take english guys <unk> it might be on the air but yes it has to be an english because i'm not gonna try to perhaps a loss in from the from the ridiculous opera garden [noise] um anyway so why don't we and uh out with a short little feedback here i found the i've been holding ah this back for a while because i thought we might do an episode on it but ah we have since not decide to do it and so i thought we might as well um this is an email from art richard joe hanson says hi folks great show i've listened to every episode since number one except thirteen which is so incredibly long i haven't gotten around to sixteen yet i'm pretty sure he's gotten further since this like a month ago um <unk> what i'm writing a bring to your attention that topic that which is under appreciated and our circles <unk> intonation i liked david <unk> david peterson <unk> a lot not because it's grammar and <unk> cleverly done although it is but because he when he pronounces example sentences in the language it sounds bleep it seems that most <unk> just bar all the intonation patterns from their native language <unk> doesn't sound like english for any language i know but i can tell that it isn't random either there is some kind of system too if i only knew what that system was tone and stress which are categories that operate at at the word level are fairly well describe but when it comes to making a system that applies to <unk> i have no clue what is it on line you're supposed to do to figure out how question should differ from statements or how to emphasize more words and phrases in different ways or <unk> sarcasm when it comes to intonation but what made different between languages and what is truly universal [noise] so i have thought of doing a <unk> of the episode for a while but um will and be <unk> can <unk> have um been a little bit against it and i can't <unk> i'm afraid of it [laughter] well i'm <unk> i can talk about it but you're gonna have to put up with my <unk> let me <unk> thinking about things like it sounds like a <unk> oh now it's more like a morning scale on the sidewalk [laughter] i don't know any kind of an allergy to describe it yeah that's something but i suffer from two i don't know a whole lot of frisbee and and i'm pretty much i everyone says i don't know any yeah i don't know if anyone knows there are terms that float around like um [noise] stress time versus syllable pong but those are that's questionable as to whether that's a real distinction or not things like that yeah yeah um [noise] from time that i am i run across a grammar would that actually focuses on this and they give these funny little kind of lines that are somehow supposed to tell me what the pitch is [noise] uh explaining <unk> more than anything else that happens and language i think requires a recording yeah and i do not have access to that information i mean like the lines of dollars like the <unk> like us up and down and you yeah yeah yeah that's good i like english class in high school and i was like <unk> <unk> here's here's a a weird thing about this is i didn't even hear some form of <unk> in like mandarin where you don't really expect to have sort of because because it has <unk> you don't really expect it to have sentence level intonation changes but it does sure yeah yeah always gonna have crazier my line thing was not like the paycheck to paycheck since it's not like chinese tone is fixed and everyone sets on a four forty and goes from there right it's against some baseline and that bass line can move all over the place yeah i spent some time <unk> because mandarin is not um <unk> the contour tunes and mandarin are more of the <unk> and they don't have much relative pitch <unk> whereas cantonese does but anyway as you were saying <unk> sorry [laughter] sometimes i feel like and grace rather than having towns i feel like it has <unk> and like when i talk i want to <unk> the whole life except for everyone <unk> something that i like to focus [laughter] <unk> [laughter] in english it's not really entirely clear because everybody talks about since final raising uh for like an <unk> because i think australia <unk> on it and i think it is yeah well actually and then there's a park too where yeah well i mean we don't we don't need to go into all the varieties english can do [laughter] i'm sure there are people who study this but it's just it's much harder to find information on i've had this not frequently part the documentation of languages when i get <unk> sometimes it is but rarely why don't we what why don't we just say um for now we're not going to plan on it but if one of us stumbled across some really good information on how on uh <unk> <unk> or a really good study then maybe we'll we'll consider doing it in the future some time but if people have resources that they would like to recommend to us on this topic please do yeah yeah yeah sunday papers send send us stuff and we'll see if uh if we can find sufficient i information to do it it's just a communicates something useful in half hour [laughter] yeah [laughter] so yeah that way you know we'll say we'll do it if we can put we can't we can't really promise anything until i know something about it i'd i'd rather not talk about it but i do think you can play when you're making a kind of language to think <unk> even actually not able to describe it even if he can just like a <unk> yourself as a pattern when you say things like i can just <unk> kind of kept him movement and if you get out and your language and it's not just thinking ratio would have found that language it down mhm <unk> a good base plant it'll help me figure out things like <unk> [laughter] cat i had a [noise] okay well i think that's all we have to say for today for this week so i'm going to say <unk> do you have any final words wisdom i shouldn't say that last sentence <unk> no i was there in in the past yeah go back in the past and listen to them again [laughter] [noise] but don't do it the second time 'cause then you have to keep <unk> i could edited but i probably won't um [laughter] william [noise] sure i have another proverb [laughter] let's see if i can remember how to pronounce it <unk> [noise] which is the proper to tell you to get to work it really means the graves waiting [noise] wow [noise] a little little persians you there [noise] by the time [noise] um my language [laughter] [noise] oh okay [noise] um very measure american [noise] ah [noise] in that when it does because it's either bothered by that but [noise] that's not exactly okay and i'm going to say happy online [noise] thank you for listening to <unk> you can find are hard drive <unk> dot com comments bush and salads and jazz and we said too <unk> g. e. mail dot com [noise] please subscribed to us on high and made me leave with a five star review while you're at and [noise] you can also like baseball dot com slash on larry follow us <unk> online or poor surplus on google plus by searching for <unk> [noise] <unk> the music was created by the <unk> [noise] i think we've lost george he's just going to be so busy digesting yes but i mean like just south of the yangtze it does get fairly cold and winter not it <unk> it gets fairly chilly but then people leave windows open the chinese are tough there odd 'cause then you get high in bad taste shit on this evidence a methadone shelf i'd still fight they the reporter debonair troll sounds a lot like the word allegedly right because you just ate a chicken um to go get some chocolate okay [laughter] i failed to properly community <unk> to the rest of my family that i want to be recording today [laughter] and my dad decided to go shopping for christmas dinner and i ended up going to law that's why i had to grab chicken and go <unk> is this the one that annoys me [laughter] [noise] oh my god noises words [laughter] it was falling on my end okay and i ended up at the end that matters my end is the end that matters 'cause my end is the and the listeners here i'm <unk> i'm a non wrapping presents <unk> [laughter] and i fell asleep bought like a fat from my nephew dot com and and not <unk> praise them on us now but it wasn't fun not bag no kicking us <unk> care my dad wrap up hey uh uh dora the explorer for the oldest of my nieces <unk> before he took it out of the box and i'm like you know you really should take it out of the box first i think any child [noise] capable of sitting through dora the explorer <unk> presence uh there was one like hour long movie of handy many where there were a couple of people that were mildly surprised that there were talking tools but no one like freaks out about it [noise] ah my favorite show currently for children is yoga <unk> which is reading the use of america to become stoned out rivers i like funny some for <unk> for everything in petra paws the how likes big toe great toe is the most most manual <unk> on the <unk> media ill [noise] whatever [laughter] yep one's <unk> one's lover one copy relates [laughter] <unk> idea [laughter] [noise] um what do we want to do [noise] i don't know where are you on that <unk> is that complain about it and then they they like basically elaine pearl city and just say everything wrong i have a hard time with valet and [laughter] and the protestors protestors [laughter] i used to i used to save <unk> until i i took a linguistics class and i still sometimes bell or because like like l._a. the linguistics teacher said bealer but she was from belgium so i didn't always trust his pronunciations i had a chinese teacher who always called shoes shows um and also you know there there were he had a slight accent and he called bats insects yes english french japanese and turkish are all anyone wants to talk about it's just having different <unk> different kinds of decadence <unk> evidence of marketing is a prime candidate for making them completely different across dialects right too many people just do dialects <unk> you know a few sound rules and that's it um and when really it's more interesting to have complete different words especially the reported of the hearsay evidence <unk> apparently every estonia dialect has their own version gender out that reminds me of pat and my husband's never seen it as i said when i said lions and tigers <unk> like <unk> you're talking about really [noise] yeah i think you're kidding me right i don't even connect to wizard of oz i was like don't look at me like i'm a crazy person 'cause you said ah lions and tigers and i said oh bad he'll mine 'cause we had one yeah

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. evidentials
  5. language
  6. linguistics
  7. Talossan

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 32 Evidentials (last edited 2017-09-06 21:25:35 by TranscriBot)