Conlangery #39: Noun Incorporation

Conlangery #39: Noun Incorporation

Published: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 06:54:50 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 famous so i mean <unk> <unk> <unk> that are we still have to buy <unk> [noise] walk up to <unk> about directed language is the people the bread that my <unk> were they with us is the lovely bianca mango hello and be irreplaceable william <unk> hello that's just what i want to hear too well but but it's true <unk> but we can tell that to my boss [laughter] maybe if we could yet b. j. p. on here every day but then we wouldn't want to because we couldn't do both rocky which we will do sometimes the future sometimes not this upset but sometimes um time sensitive announcements are weird on this pot cats because obviously i have to sort of gauge wind up <unk> but i think this has been a drop and then later in the week i'm going to be on another part cash called ted pool hurry oh no [laughter] had much cooler you what what does that mean [noise] it's [noise] so you know how we're kind of <unk> yeah and and that we're in the <unk> community this is a pod cast put on by fans of another part cast for some people who hanging out in a chat room of that other part cat he met a pod cast yes and i have a feeling that they probably have um a larger audience than we do oh so there's going to be a rift in the space time continuing from that much <unk> huh [laughter] [laughter] it may be i don't know anything you can do i can do metal yeah okay wow a pod cast about about cast [laughter] it's a <unk> uh particularly popular pot jest but for what what is it about at the same east well for the it's for like they they actually started a pod catch network for this community but surrounded uh the morning screen which is ah scott johnson morning lives stream and pot cast and i who is this person oh well he's he's he's popular among pod cats listeners [laughter] okay my brain is going to turn into a blank [laughter] <unk> <unk> <unk> is about the morning stream okay and what is that it that it's just a morning show about pod cats no it's a it's a morning show it's news and oh <unk> okay [noise] <unk> wow [laughter] why you then [laughter] because i'm also a fan of that uh pot cast oh he has experience and we did fine show felt like asking them whether i could be on their show the tadpole or eating out the other broadcast because i'm not gonna be on that one unless i call in [laughter] let's get off the subject this is a weird subject it very weird dissimilar tried it up it's certainly into something really bizarre and i was hoping to keep it keep the announcement short so i could edit out in the case i was wrong anyway [laughter] [laughter] how are you guys uh no [laughter] i'm good i'm right here continues to be really strange he was in the high forties today in february in wisconsin which is just wrong i mean <unk> yeah like we had two inches of snow which i think we're spending no actually last [noise] and now it's just like <unk> six or seven <unk> which i think it's around forty five mike [laughter] <unk> so i'm like well it rained called and that <unk> sort of felt like winter that today match has kind of likes playing 'cause i got one again so i'm kind of starting off well u._k. doesn't get bad winters that much anyway does not unless you got nine pounds <unk> um here it actually snowed pretty significantly um during the same days that um my niece and nephew where here did they have fun <unk> ah how old are they uh two and four <unk> yeah did they have fun um [noise] well yeah uh <unk> and then we couldn't actually have them outside very much because mom was concerned about them 'cause it was very very cold [laughter] [noise] they have not seen very very cool but yeah but they did they did uh they did make some tiny snowman oh how cute [laughter] which i know just by now i made a snowman too you made a snowman yeah like the entire yard now <unk> right yeah see our problem was not not enough snow at least once the snow actually came down very well the problem was that the <unk> there was too cold oh yeah that's no good at any way very good snowball making now 'cause it was the kind of like wet stuff that gets nice and compact anyway it will stop talking about now i apologize [laughter] that's okay this is this is turned into the the die aggressions pot cash [laughter] uh we need to actually talk about what is our topic today our topic is now the incorporation who and since i will probably uh just screw up the definition anyway william why don't you just explained what mounted corporation is [noise] and i own incorporation is simply a term to describe what happens when a noun is forced to join company would ever been to form a new lexical item so in other words it's the it's the does it so it it includes compounding district is pending right it's <unk> yeah we're gonna talk about an entire hierarchy from very simple known incorporation up too much scarier kinds of down a corporation and certainly the simplest type looks an awful lot like compounding that were used to um english really doesn't do this very often um typically what we have is now now compounds and wouldn't jared and ends up as the second element once in a blue moon we will pull out a new verb phrased it looks like not a corporation like babysit mhm [noise] um but it's very rare for english to do this but certainly other european languages are much happier to to do number compounding okay [noise] um and that's it i mean do we want to start in on on the different types well yeah no we we have a basic definition basically to get into the types alright so i'm going to describe this using the terms from a paper that marion <unk> road in nineteen eighty four and it was such a magnificent paper that everyone has used the same terminology sense the papers called the evolution of <unk> corporation [noise] from the journal language and she uses or or describes now uh non incorporation in an implication will hierarchy and what that means is if you are high on the hierarchy then that means you're language will have all of the lower types as well so for example if you have a language that has type three known a corporation like for example mohawk [noise] than you expected to have both type one and type too as well okay so type one is the simplest <unk> simple lexical incorporation [noise] um it used to define something that has a special new meaning for some sort of recurring activity um english and and i'm using a noun compound but the the idea of the same lunch money is a much more likely compound it then the hammer money [laughter] [noise] right we can say someone is out grocery shopping but we do not normally say someone is out ladder climbing unless unless they new sport has been invented [laughter] interesting right so we're talking about recurring activities that determined that need to have their own lexical item there's something special about them that they warrant a new word um and that's the simplest kind is pretty productive in plenty of language is is almost always a veil and see reducing operation mm that means you start off with a transit a verb like <unk> [laughter] um and then it becomes in transit at once it becomes to become something like ladder climbing and how do we know um in er gave languages you'll be obvious from case marketing and in some languages be transfer into a in trends estate may change the conjugation or may have some other morphology president to say oh this isn't transit so that's how we know [noise] um but the simple incorporation is being let's see what you're saying okay i have uh sort of a clarifying question uh eight when you're talking about this it seems to me like if you're talking about just the simplest kind of a noun corporation you are still talking about it compound where there is a male and over and then the result is er yes yes yes i'm using amusing pseudo english examples that often have two downs just to give an example like i said english doesn't really do this particularly yeah i have a feeling that uh some of the the meanings of of the the electrical incorporation might be done and english with conversion instead right <unk> exactly or we borrow some high fleeting vocabulary from latin or greek especially is very partial to this sort of thing mhm all right so that's simple type one lexical incorporation pretty simple [noise] next is type too and is plays really neat trick it's like type one but instead of reducing the veil and see the verb it allows a new direct object mhm this tends to be highly related to anna misty so rather than i washed the baby's hair you would say i hair washed the baby [laughter] [noise] the reason this is the animal sees because we want people and sometimes the animals to be cooler arguments of our vocabulary or a verbs and when we talk about you know i hurt myself enough um or i watched you know someone's hair all of these the body part is relevant but incidental we care much more about the person okay [noise] so body part incorporation is very very likely in this kind of for <unk> you <unk> george [noise] well i'm just thinking about different things um i'm trying to think because of my mind goes to chinese so often i'm thinking of weather verb object uh the verb object structured chinese uh qualifies as type one ah is that really incorporation do you have what we can talk a little bit about tests for determining incorporation in isolating languages it's an interesting problem um but let's say that until we've covered all the types yeah okay that makes sense yeah all right so type one you get any transit of are about the other end type too you get another transit a verb and it's kind of possess or raising you you you want to keep your your people and and core arguments central and the parent without having a bunch of arguments stuck in your so type three is very interesting and it's basically a discourse trick okay old information is background did buy becoming incorporated so in type one and type two <unk> tend to be not universally usable in the sense that both of those define a particular activity that requires some <unk> it's happened so often it deserves its own lexical term type three which is basically discourse incorporation you're much more likely to have a single one off kind of thing mhm um because what's happening information that has been introduced into discourse is kept background it might be incorporated so misused describes this as type one reduces arguments salient within the verb mhm type two reduces um items ceilings within the clause and type three reduces salient within the discourse so this is actually kind of tricky and the only way you can get really good examples of theirs is to have um examples entire conversations i recommend you google papers on mohawk grammar okay um because first um <unk> <unk> that's her special language and they're a bunch of papers addressing there's very issue um how this works um when does an item get incorporated when does it come back out as part of the larger discourse and narratives alright so that's type three are we ready to move out to type before yeah we've may kind of go back in revisit leisure that doesn't make sense so type for is classifying <unk> corporation so one sort of contrived example is i animal hunt deer interesting [noise] now it's somewhat relevant that the incorporated elements tend to get reduced overtime um and it quickly becomes less incorporation or looks less like incorporation looks more like a class grammar overtime and that makes sense mhm um what was i going to end [noise] [noise] right and mostly <unk> allows you to do is to not <unk> overtly states um the direct object at all okay right you have the um class incorporation a classification classical tori incorporation um lets you talk and say repeated things about a discourse topic without having to keep naming it over again or using a pronoun you know does reduced incorporated now it just becomes part of your verb alright [noise] so that's that and that's like i said this hierarchy if you've got verbs in your language that do classifying incorporation of some sort then it's very likely it's going to have all of the other types to some degree or another i see all right so this is the four types um i'm not really talked about how this incorporation happens um in terms of just morphology and found a tactics and there are two possibilities the order of the elements is simply depends on your language you say it had final or had initial and that will determine that in the normal way is your language isolating are mostly isolating or is it highly synthetic most of us are used to thinking about now the corporation operating in synthetic languages like especially languages of north america yeah but there are plenty of mostly isolating languages did have what is not a corporation how can you tell there is none of corporation word order stuff where does your subject fall if you have a v. s. so language and it looks like you're seeing v. o. s. than you may want to consider the possibility that that's incorporation okay where can you add verbs go where our including going so if you're included follows a non verbal verbal them cluster when you would otherwise expected to go immediately after one of those are the other if there was then you can say odd this whole thing is being thought of as a single unit even though both lexical items to have their accent and even though people think of them are separate where it's still there operating as not a corporation okay well that kind of answered my question i thought it might um so and chinese there are these special lexical items that are um the you'll hear them called verb object but basically it's the verb and the object picking together and i was thinking about whether those were um now the incorporation based on on the the type one definition because you have stuff like sure fun is to eat it's literally eat right right but um i think you can yeah you can have <unk> come between the verb and the object even though they are sort of like <unk> <unk> yeah the <unk> that's just a <unk> a phrase that's not uh yeah that's the corporation it's more like they're a collection of idioms [noise] than who locations yes yeah then then really um than really any anything that any kind of uh compounding another one would be [noise] wage our way is to sleep and <unk> is uh a period of time when uh when you're sleeping there's not an easy way to translate it uh you could also have <unk> eats y'all right definitely not the thing which is a different meaning sort of take a nap yeah yeah so yeah when you can win both words are operating independently then then it's probably the case that you're not you're not having incorporation yeah it seems sort of like a gray area 'cause sometimes it's it's it's a little bit awkward but anyway right well this is this is what we have field linguist to go out and they collect data than they have arguments about what's actually going on and they say no the perfect political hasn't moved off to the right of the verb but now it's falling down there for a corporation so [noise] yeah [laughter] um [noise] uh what was going to say ah my example so far i've been i've been using um incorporation of basically direct objects mhm but that is by no means the only possibility <unk> uh location in instrument are especially common so that you could say something like i'm market go [laughter] mm interesting now is there is there a hierarchy of which ones are more common than others or well not that i know direct object is definitely the most common it's all over the literature with each other is somewhat less likely [noise] um and i've mentioned before my love of instrumental <unk> as derivation elements and those are an example of a particular kind of not a corporation that got <unk> i see okay thing cash to hell time i think like that and thinking how <unk> <unk> right right [noise] um and [noise] right um so far we've also been using compounds with verbs that are transit of even was type one and you end up with a new trends divert decor verb is basically transit is but it is possible like i said with the market go example um but it's possible to have other kinds of <unk> verbs b. or taken out in a corporation [noise] um yeah you're down in corporation where if if i had that <unk> pay something because you don't have to <unk> ah that's interesting i don't know i would think not okay here's the thing now i'm in corporation is always special there is no language in which you have an incorporated down statements that does not have an equivalent that does not using corporation available [noise] okay [noise] okay <unk> yeah i'll think about it right to incorporate she gets used for different kinds of things that what type one is more clearly lexical but the other ones you're you're gonna have a simple non incorporating statement is always gonna be available as another possibility alright [noise] um but i always think of it <unk> it is possible to have in in transit verb incorporate the subject this is very rare but again mohawk my favorite example of wonderful incorporation madness [noise] um we'll do this so that you have basically double subject marking where you have the incorporated down and the necessary verb ethics is can you can get <unk> i do not have an <unk> example at hand um somebody else talking i can look went up [laughter] [noise] [laughter] well just <unk> or we could do that yeah well i mean what a baseball game like <unk> <unk> no um self would be an object in that case i <unk> like something like um well that's kind of hard to hear it in english and not going to get anything you can say things like the houses dark it how starts [laughter] like that and i said <unk> and now you actually like wouldn't act yes okay that's the first thing making us monkey [noise] it seems like they should get that said you could has so the the there might be dummy um pronouns win in those cases um trying to think what it was gonna say um it seems like the the whole thing kind of is more about the object side than the subject side particularly sets the type one involves reducing veil m._c. right you can't reduce the veil and see of a a um oh of <unk> in trends diverse up any further well yeah i'm not sure where these in transit of incorporating the subjects fall into the theory of not a corporation um certainly people have followed up myth humans work with various kinds of harping on this or that point you make so this is definitely still an open issue um for a while it was very very popular they are <unk> flurry of papers don't you love it when when ah ah linguists don't know what's going on i do actually it's kind of it's it's interesting cannot always [laughter] <unk> i don't think it's always but it's still at that time [laughter] that they're hiding salad about knowing anything i'm going through <unk> well it's a science but it's not a high scientist or social science i guess no <unk> no no no what i mean is in science nothing is ever <unk> yeah but they transcribe share than other scientists [laughter] so i'm i'm stared at my i've had here looking at this paper again another example she gave us is from <unk> <unk> um which has two sentences for hail is falling ah can say you can say um uh to see we [noise] let's see which means hail is falling but that's weird there's something weird about pet statement normally you would say uh to see what see which is just it's hailing [noise] so that's another point is when you are talking about completely boring normal event like tailing being non incorporated version draws attention to the object or the the part that's been pulled up okay if you gotta maintaining its <unk> right exactly if you say i <unk> [laughter] you know that's that's not very interesting but if you say i knocked on the door then yes you're making a contrast no talking in the door instead of his head or whatever [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] right so these little things we can think about ah with awkward racial or beyond just a normal lexical stuff mhm maybe i'd knocked on the door rather than ring the doorbell sure sure doorbell rang whatever when you say when you pull out you have for whatever reason drawing attention to the the element that's been pulled out that's an interesting sort of uh concept for discourse and that's that's something that we tried to mention on the show is various ways you can use things for discourse and for um focus and stuff because a lot of called language don't necessarily do much discourse stuff right and sometimes i mean some things that happen in grammar don't make sense unless you think about discourse type a three now in a corporation makes no sense outside of a discourse context half the time in my opinion passive an anti passes make no sense outside of a discourse context [noise] so the example um in the paper that she gives for <unk> is the sentence he is a nice person is all one word deep decomposing into he person and nice uh-huh so that's that's it seems like mostly um what we would call stadiums are being uh incorporated this way now i'm uh uh i was about to ask a question but i realize now that doesn't make much sense i was going to ask about whether you can have pronouns incorporated no it it feels like having pronouns incorporated would end up being something much more of like a grammatical agreement thing yeah that's just agreement yeah oh here's another good example all one word for he stole my car [laughter] so he car stole me [noise] wow [noise] right so just some little examples now like i said for the class of it could tori incorporation you expect to have reduced elements the normal word for animal maybe different when it's incorporate been when it's not incorporated um and this is true across the other types of incorporation as well you might have um different changes to words and in fact you might have <unk> you might have one word for animal when it's floating around on its own and they completely different item bearing know historical relationship at all to the outside world for animal once it gets shoved into denver so i have all kinds of all kinds of not a corporation in my language cost die [noise] and in my dictionary i have two for some words give both a noun incorporation form i never been corporation form we're not in a corporation it's just you know or um not a corporation and now i'm compound oh that's interesting i mean their rules mostly but some words i just decided to follow the rules so yeah and that's that's an irregularity thing so yes i i presume that the most common words are the most likely to have the most radical absolute raises the word for body <unk> has reduced to a single confidence out [laughter] [laughter] wow 'cause you're in in in these languages you you're not say i saw bob you say i <unk> saw bob okay who's walks going off it's pot i thought i tend to get off [laughter] but it's like no you know the enron right now like <unk> why not to check my email and turn out to beep everytime i <unk> <unk> a face [noise] um what else did i want to talk about ooh arguments <unk> this is the first time i saw this my my little brain just had a twitch and an explosion in some language is known incorporation you can incorporate them down but leave all of its modifying things floating around in the rest of the sentence [laughter] i how saw that i mean i saw that house or even stranger yet i have saw blue um okay yes that's called arguments draining i recommend do google that because i don't fully understand all of the rules of that i'm sure their rules i'm sure that they're linguists who have ideas about those rules but i do not know those rules [laughter] hi how saw blue [noise] mhm [noise] needless to say it gets people agitated 'cause it is awfully weird when i see people i mean linguist so i take it that this is not the most common way for no no straightening is unusual it happens that the the <unk> is it more like if there are more elements in the phrase that it won't get incorporated most of the time i i have no idea that that takes us in the theory um i do not do standing in any language i've invented and i'm not brave enough to dry it yet i need to read more papers well i really like this um topic this has been another uh williams cedric episode because i had <unk> knew nothing about this stuff for now but now i'm thinking maybe i will try to use it somewhere yeah if you can find betweens paper it's just great it's full of chock full of examples but you need to have access to j. stores do need to be either in college or have access to a library that will let you yeah <unk> papers that way not happening right now but um <unk> do you have any thoughts on this stuff before we move on i understanding <unk> and the language rag <unk> like <unk> on <unk> still has that i just can't be in some sort of [noise] neutral <unk> i cannot answer that question okay sorry fat now [laughter] yeah it's kind of an index question that would that would require us to find a a comparative study ah this kinda thing yeah i wouldn't be surprised if that happened <unk> yeah oh god i just want an example from oneida um wow you could have the possess or be stranded i have spot john [laughter] [laughter] no night it has no case marking [laughter] [laughter] that's that seems odd specifically you know i <unk> bought draw on that particular <unk> seemed like it did have some other alternative i mean it it's kind of make it easier and more comfortable for me like i hair washed john doesn't twist my brain as much as this one does even though there's it's clearly the same sort of possession possessive um arrangement but it seems less wrenching with um maybe <unk> maybe because hair would almost always be in <unk> right he <unk> he seems to be something it's part of him so you're still doing stuff to him exactly whereas the house is not part of him [laughter] [laughter] unless you believe in some strain spiritual thing yeah yeah sounds ago well i think maybe we can move on oh my god [laughter] should on to our future conway today which is given day uh it was created by what's the name [noise] oh what is his name uh that uh rick something would give me a second here uh rick roots record leader that's that that's the name he uses for his novels rake [laughter] sounds like a pseudonym could be but um <unk> [noise] um so first of all we were looking at this at the top the show and looking at the phonology pay [noise] and at this very bizarre or soccer free that is severely are allergic to die of critics to the point of doing some very strange spelling yes it's very strange <unk> yeah if you want to try to pronounce anything this language you're going to want to look at the <unk> phonology page burst so that you know what the heck anything is is yeah yeah i'm like i said at the time for those of us <unk> who are around on the internet early doing die critics was likely to get you hate mail um just because there was no way to guarantee that anyone you might want to communicate with would get the die critics intact [laughter] right if it wasn't <unk> wasn't there was no way to guarantee that it was getting wherever to anyone else [noise] um so i'm a little more sympathetic to that but this language takes it to <unk> pretty remarkable extremes the vows especially have all sorts of funky it has to accommodate yeah it's mainly the vows that go all out of maybe found some other spellings even what he chose because some of them are <unk> odd [noise] in any case yeah <unk> that the syllable structure is recently complex needs to give it gives the nice overview of the various possibilities available <unk> uh-huh he has fairly good um i'm not really in love with the um organization here because he has phonology words objects actions modify are clauses seems like he's trying to use some very non standard um term <unk> oh god it's full of non standard term for for no uh that was a <unk> discernible purpose saying much like <unk> <unk> language i rented fe new <unk> because she's gotten a little bit <unk> i feel like he's on the <unk> <unk> a lot of read different things going on you seem quite out of the <unk> i'm not sure what all fits together well yeah and he does things like thing things that i used to do like one one thing i used to do that i find he did was he misinterpret what an infectious and it's actually what he's calling in and fix looks like it's actually just a <unk> or another subject [noise] things like that yeah i don't think that's entirely the issue i think this is another language where it's supposed to be spoken my aliens floating around in space somewhere or you know a a pre technological culture on an alien place even though they're mostly like humans um and so he's trying to describe a quite different uh grammatical tradition and a different way of organizing the language okay so you're thinking that he's trying to prevent the traditional grammar of this fictional society yes yeah okay um so there's that i'm trying to find the page that i saw before where he gives the subscription [laughter] there's a complex interaction of intimacy an agency and a bunch of other things that go into these now and and and for those it made sense to me that he concocted new vocabulary <unk> okay 'cause the the dividing line don't match at all um what we would expect pronounce in english necessarily or any human language for that matter okay i'm but but the problem is is than we see a lot but very familiar which gives us a warm cozy feeling oh this is a human language but it's not really <unk> like low house [laughter] it it has to be on levels it's <unk> it's it's just kind of odd in many ways [noise] but it's also huge a tremendous amount of work with into this same nothing nothing i'm seeing in this language looks particularly alien to me this maybe because like not understanding something or yeah let me find this problem is is the organization [laughter] i do like the <unk> ah <unk> [noise] <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> can be a difficult thing and like i'll off <unk> you mean wrongly proposition <unk> i'm <unk> i <unk> i'll say that maybe i'll make me laugh 'cause here [noise] um so i'll usually <unk> rave <unk> a curve rent admission but it won't be quite right way of any kind of <unk> hell i have something that's like on but it's not going to be always like oh i mean <unk> basically <unk> not like the government can't <unk> case yeah [laughter] <unk> <unk> i mean i kinda like that he went he went there a lot of chinese <unk> yeah it is very helpful very interesting he has one that's swath or <unk> maybe that's from place to place around and it has a picture of like four different places with or going to all of them [laughter] um so one <unk> rather frustrating thing about the site is there's many sections have lots of examples which is good and the examples are given in the native script in p._a. in the room and his <unk> and then the translation nowhere in there is that a gloss [laughter] i found that [noise] there are of a rare number of glasses but mostly it's presented this way so it's sometimes makes it hard to figure out what is going on dramatically yes mm bluffing is important it had the way i might lincoln the shown so i i did this out from the con larry twitter but they're um carson backer made a word press and on for los ang yes yes everyone is in love with him for that now i'm seeing uh-huh um but yeah this language has no not much glossy and really makes the examples kind of useless just kind of it looks pretty good yeah i i could i wish yes i wish for more um what was gonna say so there is an interesting system of word reduction that happens um as part of grammar and that's all very nicely described with lots of examples so i appreciate that this is definitely not highly regular i mean it in this regard it's not highly regular there are other parts of the language which are surprisingly regular but what happens denounce make support oh um and we were looking at this before he actually made some attempt to explain the <unk> and the sentence level or claws level intonation patterns [laughter] it was very um hey basically just kind of drew pitch contours um it's interesting it's still um there's still the problem of you know it's kind of hard to explain process to be in the first place because it is a little bit difficult [noise] um also this is a lot of different intonation patterns it is i'm not sure this is this is quite natural ah the dictionary is enormous mhm and not terrible although i wish the definitions were longer but they're not completely [noise] a lot of them are very simple um but others are a little bit more complicated so <unk> so what is this the he's saying <unk> translation of a rummage all we're right 'cause he has other languages it's weird um i guess <unk> interesting that he put register in the dictionary uh-huh the current the rate so he's got a normal just alphabetical search but then he has word group searches or you can click on you know if you want to list of all verbal particles <unk> they're they are [noise] but if you want to see everything in the formal register which is definitely less than see that seems to be almost entirely pronouns uh-huh and if you know in some sort of conjunctions that do not have definitions currently anyway so like i said this language is presented on the web page that is sort of in world it presents itself is documenting the reality of this particular place uh-huh such that the dates on the bottom of the pages are in some alien dating system yes that annoys me i do not know would tissue noone to eighteen is but that's when this pagers updated yeah um i wanna say something about that it's all nice and good to have your own calendar system that's fine but if you're going to put you know this paid was last updated on kind of thing which a lot of people don't do on web sites anymore anyway but if you're going to date stuff made me you know you can have that for flavor in there put also give us the regular for korean date <unk> [laughter] because it is easier but that that's just completely useless kind of like having this and that <unk> <unk> but just put it fried by hard with every hour if you really wanna <unk> put it by the way our phone <unk> side by side if not i'm not even selling chest mostly it's confusing oh there's a special derogatory register that's good oh wow that's <unk> okay that's a bizarre collection of words [laughter] uh yeah no it's it's all their forward [noise] yeah and what i like is the additional information section especially where he does things like he explained the cultural cognitive metaphors uh-huh right life is a river emotion is centered in the stomach uh instinctive entered the liver right body part names can be used emitted <unk> to represent the actions that body part undertake switch what would the verb for hair mean anyway hang ago she didn't take <unk> or <unk> in my case to just sets life [laughter] and he took the ad tank right that's a nice touch and then he has you know other things like uh references to math and and counting so that sort of stuff colored terms which [noise] george will hate because there's is there an orange oh there's an orange [laughter] and <unk> and in fact there are two things he does have inner linear losses on his translation yeah so um no recording that i can see but wow he's writing system takes up a lot of space yeah [noise] and can we talk slightly about that script it's just oh no <unk> very um complicated and he's complicated forever that complicated it looks same lunch like <unk> construction uh-huh it looks like and fat composite thing yeah <unk> that's actually look at what the what he says but okay see i i can't say anything about ready sisters cause i universally hate invented writing systems except for two or three or four really yeah so i don't i don't and this one is by no means by no means the worst i've ever seen [noise] oh no so i didn't hear range of stuff in in syllable blocks it's not the worst we've ever seen yeah but which makes it solidly hungry like yeah it is but i don't know it's just the particular strokes and stuff like there's a <unk> here which i've done that in the past and i realized it was a stupid thing to do [laughter] [laughter] if george desserts of himself [laughter] nah well now when you have any kind of a spiraling thing that's it's it's too hard to do yeah so now it's not one or two of these characters remind me of dallas charm writing really you know <unk> whatever so we don't need to go into chinese magic but [noise] anyway it's yes it's a hunger like script and very and he invented to find a way that that is being blasted up to my browser which i thought was a club or a piece of technology [laughter] yeah [laughter] what else there are other languages here that he has described <unk> i think it's it's worthwhile organization i mean there one or two things about the organization that urban funky but i've certainly seen much much worse so people might find this interesting [noise] um his collection of um [noise] processes that happened to words in certain grammatical situations i think are worse looking at if we destroyed his website it's not answering me right now <unk> the stopped it's it's it's it's actually his cell phone running over [laughter] [laughter] if we <unk> server it it said oh you're right it may not be hosting it on the bus service but it just stopped [laughter] [laughter] oh well now i <unk> [laughter] sure [laughter] we will linked to this language and the show nuts you know and i will and then you guys can look at it yourself but realize that all the um all i really bizarre terminology is not uh usual um it it's not unusual and i'm yeah i'm like i said he has some reasons for [laughter] whoops that didn't work at home <unk> and not necessarily welcome um makes it hard to know what's going on i mean like i said if she <unk> not <unk> not instead of <unk> yeah as far as feedback i didn't we didn't get any emails that i felt ah i should really put into the show notes but um people <unk> through us facts eating [laughter] see an opportunity to use not a corporation [laughter] uh i don't know but um [noise] <unk> <unk> now yeah we have a few comments but not that uh a bunch of people asked about um i inserted something about stopping it episode fifty one which is we're not gonna do it was just a joke but the reason that that we take fifty to to be very important is because that would be a year's worth of weekly pot yes just to make everybody clear about that yeah so there is one comment that i thought was interesting uh-huh um from yesterday talking about <unk> yeah <unk> good part of <unk> gonna be describes reconstructing in the same way that a form of hebrew was revived the twentieth century built upon the toronto primarily nova karate and was revived in accounting built upon historical materials relating to medieval overcrowding [noise] whereas my mind seeing a personal connection isn't there um that's an interesting question um it's curious because modern hebrew to some extent is pretty much a constructed language is <unk> is three hebrew very different from ancient hebrew but modern hebrew has hey strong speaker community now including a strong native speaking speaker community so [laughter] right that's the thing that <unk> missing is i don't get the impression there are a bunch of people are <unk> you know [laughter] learning and using it yeah no no nobody nobody really wants to speak <unk> well i don't know i don't have enough information the guy who invented maybe he wants to be able to be speaking to regret you know i don't know um <unk> so that to me is in the sense that the process was the same and you know the materials we're the same [noise] formerly live language became a dead language revived to work in the modern world in that sense it's the same and i agree but i don't think there is a community waiting to use <unk> unlike you know nineteen twenties century um sinus movements and does sort of the reality of history the twentieth century sort of motivating people to form a state i would still have <unk> language to use i would actually say the process is or different i don't know a whole lot about hebrew shorter reconstruction process but they didn't really run it through a bunch of sound changes or anything [noise] that's true they didn't <unk> didn't they from what i understand the main thing about hebrew was picking biblical hebrew and adding words for modern things and then they ah the various changes that occurred in terms of grammar and and <unk> and whatever sort of occurred naturally as no no no no relation learned it nope no i mean some to some degree that is true but the grammar of the when you came out even with his standard it was already much change from the biblical standard oh was it okay yeah i mean you have an enormously long history of hebrew still being used as a sort of learned um religious language oh so he may have been using sort of the ways that rabbis were using hebrew right various things went into it in many ways um modern hebrew is sort of a semitic vocabulary slammed on yiddish semantics uh member especially well that makes sense yeah i mean you have some very interesting uh aspect things um that are pure slavic behavior [laughter] imported into hebrew by way of <unk> i <unk> i thought you was dramatic oh yes but <unk> it was spoken in lots of slavic areas so oh so he really affect yeah really strong aerial effects from the slavic languages as relates to aspect so basically what we're saying is that so just what i was <unk> and it's kind of the same idea but <unk> it's not actually a reviving process it just um a guy who said if <unk> still existed what would the no regretting language looked like today right rather than let's blue found <unk> again and reclaim the old language which is what happened with israel in hebrew [noise] that is open political diplomatic relations with to lhasa [laughter] god now anyway yeah so yeah i i'm gonna take georgia's point and and saying they're not that sooner just because of this this process of running things through some changes and so forth yeah uh it's interesting thing about a book i got recently on <unk> what was it from from from elvis chuckling on whatever it was not a great book in my opinion but um there was a whole chapter on the <unk> as exercising <unk> which is interesting i think actually i'm not entirely <unk> <unk> on like <unk> <unk> actually run into a little bit on <unk> language tastes like crying on <unk> and i think he also brought a lot in hebrew and that contact so it's actually i pay good saves especially if you have friends and family like what's linguistics and i can watch the first episode and they like stopped <unk> stupid question [laughter] yeah stephen fry is too big a fan of um degenerative it's i i don't need to actually fairly open <unk> i only watch the fact that the <unk> <unk> yeah it's still good stephen fries entertainment doozy stick so it was a nice <unk> begin that type level yeah you can't get an act just like complete i'm now i don't know what you call that i mean i don't know either anyway yes it's worse to listen mhm well i think we can sort of wrap up the show um i i actually have a book recommendation that it has it doesn't have to deal with <unk> really it has to do with um just linguistics and more sort of socio linguistics but last language <unk> i'm reading right now it's pretty dance academic material but it has a whole lot of information on weird socio linguistics stuff and that sounds good yeah i called the last <unk> okay and what do they claiming to be the last thing before i go well this <unk> um i'm not sure if i get the argument i haven't really gotten into the main part of his argument yet but he argues that <unk> will be the last <unk> ah the or the last <unk> in general and and ah by the time english is done we will have um machine translation good enough that we won't need a link with <unk> but that's very optimistic oh this is <unk> okay now thinking we just kept myself before we got to the next door [laughter] still quite a lot of good information in there i read this the the i just read the the weirdest thing <unk> has a weird history oh goodness yes because he described like just the the the what happened in the early persian empire where the <unk> were willfully illiterate and they were using ella might strives so all messages were written and ella might but it was you translate it you you <unk> it was dictated persian translated element and then on the other end greek translated back persian [laughter] like this is that's kind of bizarre [laughter] yes yes yes [laughter] that was before they switch to air make yes so nicholas <unk> who wrote that book also wrote a wonderful book called empires of the world no sorry empires of the word [noise] your language history of the world which is very <unk> this guy has a very dense writing style but it's just full of delicious juicy tidbits yeah about how language gets used and moves around and [noise] if for some some socialism linguistics at uh stuff that you might want to incorporate into con worlds if you're one of those <unk> and also does con worlds and what's great about osama or is he does not just talk about the ones we all think about english latin greek includes things like polly <unk> so it's it's <unk> covers a wider area oh yeah he he did a whole thing on um how like <unk> we're uh nationally sort of promoted by the spanish because they were already established language <unk> and then after they basically broke up into different languages they still have a strong this the speaker community you still have a strong identity with each other even though the their their language has drifted apart and they still sort of identify is all speaking novel all speaking catch what the <unk> the leaders of the in can empire we're not even catch where speakers they just used it because it was already there waiting to be used i mean and and was widespread anyway [laughter] we've kinda tuned into aggression yes this is that that that um maybe maybe we'll we will pull i will pull some material that book if we ever do any ponds social linguistics about but ah [noise] in the meantime we <unk> do you have any final words it was [noise] now i gave your wrist on last week [laughter] you must make do [laughter] <unk> yeah that <unk> you know it was such it was such deep wisdom yeah [laughter] [noise] no i have nothing to speak [noise] okay and i'm going to say <unk> thank you for listening to the library you can find our archives ensure notes at <unk> dot com [noise] comments question said suggestions can be said to con <unk> gene male dot com [noise] please subscribed to us on <unk> and maybe leave us a five star review while you're at it [noise] you can also like us at <unk> dot com slash hong larry follow us on on <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> on google plus by searching for <unk> [noise] our theme music was created by the ban <unk> device [noise] <unk> <unk> uh lining now find that when i was actually in university and i could get a salary <unk> have time to look at them i've ever and when i needed a class and now that i have all the time in the world trade <unk> it's like great getting [noise] maybe in whom loud [noise] is that a bad name or a self help novel for self help book for <unk> [laughter] [laughter] ah oh eh he um yeah yeah all all who uh like i said points for trying <unk> [noise] [noise] oh dear to q. yeah make it not flunk [noise] or knock knock knock so i got to talking with david inside and supply is just like started to say you know that i should have you guys each record your on your own and i'm like no this complicated <unk> well i i would <unk> have to think things up and he's like oh well but um basically i was saying you know it would be all outta the sink and he's and he's like well it'll be out in the sink locally but not lovely it'll still be on the same time stream and i'm like no [laughter] not it's not quite that it's just the fact that the different sides of us <unk> conversation will drift in such a way that i'll have to deal with sort of people i probably have to deal with people ending up talking about at the same time and long stretches of silence and stuff and i don't want to really deal with [noise] if we were all in the same studio with three different mike sent a mixture [laughter] and i had the equipment to record three separate tracks then i would do that but doing that kind of thing over sky is a little awkward can i just say how weird it was to see the forum comments about the most recent episode when people were praising it's when i felt comfortable about it of all of them [laughter] what's this person raised by weasels why would you even say that they raised by will <unk> will have more manners alright fix it fix it over like <unk> okay that's a section and i'm gonna take a break i'm going to go run a marathon or something but just that that that the <unk> section break 'em you've got to go to sleep i have three and a half flying potty and hiring people in my house [laughter] anyway you know what i thought <unk> and this guy like catch their fake fake french accent but instead of their <unk> i like it <unk> he did and actually you stop and i was like <unk> <unk> not that [laughter] [laughter] and i've never had any one night messed up with like <unk> [noise] it got stuck with [laughter] <unk> <unk> if it gets into the train a guy like language and they're like no [laughter] i like to have <unk>

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. Gevey
  5. language
  6. linguistics
  7. noun incoprporation

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 39 Noun Incorporation (last edited 2017-09-07 03:25:48 by TranscriBot)