Conlangery #41: Discourse Particles

Conlangery #41: Discourse Particles

Published: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 07:00:30 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 sure to make sure my [noise] yet he her her her shore and not <unk> <unk> [noise] walk 'em my green card language is would be <unk> george carlin was such a problem we have <unk> we after richard [noise] [noise] no [noise] <unk> um messing up on the show now that is wild and uh in [noise] but what probably will be my future home of wisconsin is uh one william <unk> hello that sounds like you should literally initiate your home taking care of it no i don't say sitting for joy i don't think he's any <unk> any of the uh you w uh university of <unk> much i haven't had lied for housing [noise] that's one thing i have down i still don't have down how i'm going to pay for everything but [noise] if all else fails i can get a job [laughter] yes i probably will have to [noise] yes um a couple of announcements um this will be <unk> last show no um <unk> um you want to sort of talk about why yeah he says well obviously since i started <unk> i've had some big last changes and that and most countries i got married and i should be moving into a new house so kind is my life <unk> um i am going to need time to move and i'm currently looking for a job so time wise not having as much time to do this <unk> i've just kind of lost interest in coming in that's a hobby so i wasn't putting as much effort into the research that goes behind us and if i'm not going to do it all the way then i don't really want to do it i figure you can get someone who will put the effort in okay i think it's funny also in a previous episode we called my husband like yoga on now but he was like no no you should continue doing it and i was like i just don't feel like it he's like no continue on and off like now well we'll be back yeah yeah that's not saying i've like left forever i mean i i still enjoy <unk> to some extent i just don't have the same interest i had when i started right right well um this oh let's say this will be for now you're less upset at us a a regular but you know maybe some time if you have time well we can still bring you own a suggestion time time yeah um well good luck with all your um moving into the new house and getting a job and everything get done to survive in britain yes um another i want to do this just a quick note there was a little <unk> on a busy be be about ah something about uh somebody just now found out about the um uh <unk> one of their <unk> wasn't terribly happy i won't go into the details here you can go on there and and go to the luxury threat if you want to figure out what exactly went down and it's all documented there but i will say from now on i'm going to make it a policy once we decide on our future <unk> for the week i'm going to see if i can find an email or something so i can contact the author just as a heads up i'm never going to wait for permission because i don't feel that i should have to do that but certainly i feel that we should be contacting people even though we have and we just got out of that habit anyway it's horrible i would know that they were also a couple of people that i had to email because they didn't have a much public info and we did get their <unk> least stuff that lesson publicly available well yeah certainly anything that's not publicly available we do need permission for obviously but i have i feel like anything is published we have the right to review but yeah it probably would have been more polite of us to contact them people first anyway um but not let's not flavor that any more than we have to i just wanted to make the announcement man we're going to move in this is a topic that william suggested quite a while ago and it it looks like a really interesting thing that not many <unk> really are doing it's called uh so we're going to talk about this course part of a cold and william penn you define what a discourse particle is worse here [noise] um [noise] that can be surprisingly difficult mm the secret about discourse particles is these are the sorts of words that when you ask people what they mean native speakers especially with say it doesn't mean anything at all [noise] which is which must be completely exasperating for feud linguist if it doesn't mean anything why would you say [laughter] but the but the point of these words is not that they don't need anything they don't mean anything but two of the really strong characteristics of discourse particles are they do not affected the truth conditions of a statement if i say i went to the store today and something like i even went to the store today adding even does not change the truth conditions of the statement mhm i've i've added you know some extra stuff [noise] second of all it does not affect the proposition content again the proposition content that's the that's the state of affairs i'm describing going to the store and i'm totally like went to the store yesterday it's the same a proposition content is i went to the store yesterday but the discourse particles add to different things to it [noise] okay seconds and and and then the last big thing is discourse particles are related to be active speech context knocked the situation being described uh-huh so <unk> so we're talking about how we interact with the people that were talking to and who are listening to us is where these particles operate they are not usually um operating at the time of the situation yeah so from your um from your notes and um the papers that you link uh that i was looking at it looks like discourse particles are a lot of um things like turn and taking and introducing new topics or changing the topic of discussion <unk> thing right so there are various ways to divide discourse particles um definitely that's one of them sort of higher level discourse structure turn taking repairing things you know when your sentence goes awry or you just said something wrong or you go back and fix <unk> hesitation right um that's one thing um uh a surprising amount has to do it's sort of related to this is maintaining discourse coherent <unk> yes the thing i'm saying now actually fits with what i said before or maybe it doesn't and then there's various kinds of attitude how do we feel about what's being said is it's surprising isn't alarming as good as it bad um are other things that come into this and then depending on the kind of language you're talking about a bunch of things we think it was and worms um might be counted as particles especially things like scale or particles things like even and only where you have um a continuum of possibilities and your selecting one or the other end of that continue [noise] um [noise] and so this is a little bit company and we can talk about more some of the details of how things can mix and match [noise] but so those are discourse particles the reason i think about them a lot is because i studied ancient greek for so long and one ancient greek especially especially literary ancient greek uses them a lot a lot a lot in homer it is not unusual defined chains of three or four discourse particles in a row mhm which drives you agree constrictor mad because you have to find some way to translate that to let the teacher know that you understand what's going on [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] um and the second the state of ancient greek scholarship in the modern world is the very best nineteenth century linguistics has to offer [laughter] biz <unk> this is changing somewhat but a lot of the work that we're still working a lot of the instructional material explaining the particles is just disastrous <unk> bad so in other words they really aren't into discourse in the first place are the only since the nineties have some very nancy dutch linguists finally started thinking about discourse questions in terms of the classical languages and they've been doing some really great work um and it is it is from this work in ancient greek particles that i have developed a deep loading the word emphasis [laughter] did you go see a list of greek particles in five or six of them will be called emphatic [laughter] hey <unk> that helps [laughter] so [noise] and there are some other languages they tend to be political rich um german and dutch are both popular topics for dessert oh yeah yeah right so you're <unk> taking care of man it's like i know what they mean when they say them but i could never figure out where i would as i use them yeah <unk> all that fun i think um i think it was maybe in ah the awful german language by mark twain but i i saw the joke that germans will stick although just basically anywhere they can [noise] right so he <unk> he was one of those people who he asks import german but also mentor they told them it didn't mean anything yeah obviously and we have a paper that actually covers although in several others it actually does do something it just it's just that any <unk> any time you have these discourse particles people kind of make fun of 'em because no one no one consciously knows what they mean luckily or a train linguist trying to figure out what they mean it is very hard to explain them i'll always remember being where <unk> either i._r._c. maybe second like whatever it was uh international group and i use the phrase to boot ah [laughter] and the germans like what that does that meat and it took us a good five minutes to tease that out to explain it to a movement [laughter] i've i was trying beef uh earlier today 'cause i always try to do some of my own research trying to figure out explanations of the some of the the uh particles that occur in english like uh la <unk> nothing publicly available gave me anything that i could i could peas out so no i when i was doing some research for the show i've found up a paper on the <unk> and it had a political cartoon or uh you know not political cartoon just uh a cartoon in some local paper which it gave like six different interpretations for law [laughter] jokingly but anyway so at the point is the particles are really tough to explain um older free <unk> maybe very bad about explaining them because they don't it's very hard to tease out their meaning and and the idea of thinking about discourse at a much higher level um is not new to linguistics but new to some of these older languages that her political rich and [noise] what was the other thing i was going to say i forget completely so [noise] anyway do we want to go down a list of of some of the things he's particles can do it a little bit more detail sure why not alright so one of the pretty common ones is a discourse particle could <unk> you know how to speak or thinks about things in particular is this information expected <unk> unexpected okay [noise] wow well wow is more introduction i'm thinking well yeah i'm thinking more in terms of things like you know [noise] you know i went down to the basement yesterday and would you know it there was a full of water uh-huh right so that phrase wouldn't you know it is [laughter] me expressing well this is quite surprising [laughter] so we have our our favor ah somewhat sarcastic a discourse particle or discourse phrase english tends to use sixth raises for these we don't have single words we have some but for the most part we don't have a large collection of single we're into the don't otherwise have meaning in other places in the language mhm [noise] um so that's one thing very often discourse particles let the speaker indicates what they think they're listener how their listener is going to respond to things so if you are expecting the person listening huge regard something surprising or unlikely or unpleasant they might include a particle um ancient greek has one called <unk> which is always used when you were saying something that you're listening or might not like or might not know um [noise] it's these are really hard to translate something like really or um definitely or things like that when you want to prop up information that you're listening or might disagree with or find unpleasant kind of reminds me of chinese has she'll which kind of sometimes it's introduces unexpected information sometimes it draws focused to something sometimes it's just more like a focus particles sure and and and that's typical and we can talk about that complexity in a little bit more later mhm um another pretty common kind of discourse part of <unk> something that marks discourse cohesion is the statement i'm making related to what i've already said is it a digression and we'd pop back two previous topic mhm things like anyway but um i'm <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> to have like a fucking gaming and a half hours on the phone with my mom it'd be talking and then when i was i had to go i just like sell anyway she's like die [laughter] actually i i uh that's kind of a digression i tend to use any way uh as like a hesitation marker or as a um can you say something more er it throws people off especially um non native speakers but anyway let's let's let's not let's not go out too much on one particular which i which i did see my yeah yeah [laughter] um so these are very very common because we rarely tell stories in you know straight ahead fashion we have to lay background and we might go off and tennis and all that so [noise] these are very common um another one discourse repair peoples speaking not from a script are remarkably does fluent yeah huh so we have to do things to go back to correct what we've said to clarify what we've said um to let people know that you're still thinking when i listened back to the the <unk> version of this pug yes i have always quite appalled without just float diane so [noise] yeah it takes practice to become a fluent speaker in <unk> it's it's kind of a natural yes [laughter] um that's like takes practice because no one in um i'm not going to say that could happen once in a while i get the people who has a natural talent for that kind of thing but short so some english discourse repair things or stuff like that is i mean let's see um as you know which marks something that you expect you're listening to know but you you need to bring it into the topic anyway that sort of stuff um and now he barks sleeping or there's no <unk> [laughter] [laughter] that was a little harder because as you know should be not that sort of rhetorical stumped me now he was sleeping with us you know <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah um any writing teacher will will complain about over use of as you know in <unk> in <unk> dialogue [noise] [laughter] and it <unk> <unk> yeah yeah right so things that that work <unk> work less well and it's just necessary because we're speaking and things fall apart uh-huh um there's something else that's going to say about <unk> oh i wish i could remember it years ago i read a language grammar that had a discourse particle which was used um to say the following constituents belongs in the preview sentence [laughter] [laughter] that's a really useful <unk> apparently the language objected somewhat strongly to incomplete sentences or found them inappropriate somehow so you would use this particle plus whatever part you missed to say oh the slots into the syntax the previous sentence somehow that's seems like a very useful thing though it does yeah um i mean to me it's a little bit strange because most of the time with it sort of normal conversational context if somebody add something you're sort of might know that it fits into this <unk> the syntax previously i think a lot of times when people do that it's probably more of they start to repeat the <unk> right or they use an <unk> verb or something like that some reduced version of what they just said plus the new information or they say that is that at the right to raise it entirely yeah um [noise] okay so that's that um a discourse particles can introduce transitions between topics and here but i mean topic i mean narrative topics not topic as in a topical [noise] um [noise] things where you can introduce a new one like how about ads for blah blah blah they're various ways to do this um ah people will still write long papers on how homer uses particles to introduce transitions between scenes and the only the odyssey [noise] um we've already talked a little bit of <unk> already scale or particles inclusion versus exclusion in a long a continuum and in english most of these are <unk> and in other languages they might be as well um one of my favorites again from ancient greek is <unk> which started off life as a scanner particle indicating a high degree you could sort of think of it as another way of saying very okay but it got used to so often and the particular construction with participles that it came to mean although huh that's interesting so it transition from you know a scale or political ad or be kind of thing into it got blossomed into another conjunction and together they mean although [laughter] interesting yeah so it became a part of syntax uh rather than a purely discourse thing [noise] um some languages <unk> this is not strictly speaking quite the same but ah we'll notice the same um some languages mark focus with particles alright um some languages have separate words for question focus and negative focus you know it's not me who's left with a senator um [noise] or you know was it the secretary who's left with a senator um [noise] i'm trying to think <unk> has a special um questioned clinic which is used to focus the word your most interested in oh interesting [noise] um [noise] negative focus particles are really interesting and weird both for scope reasons and just because they're weird i mean english no i've not really studied languages that use them so if you're in for if you like reading papers about linguistics google negative focus particle 'cause they're neat [laughter] all right well we'll have to yes there's a lot of things here where people were <unk> going to want to um search for things and um one suggestion i have like just to take a little break him and just lifting everything that happens i think probably if people can find some stuff and william has found some stuff i found one paper on on chinese that might help people where you can look at this course particles in other languages um that could help you figure out this course particles in your car line 'cause you could give you sort of the range that a discourse particle does because often one particle we'll do two or three or four of these things right right that was that's actually i i made the point of adding that to the notes very often he's single part of part of cool well either have multiple jobs or we'll merge some of these different discourse functions so to booth which i was talking about before in addition to <unk> already very often but not always um at least in my dialect english has a positive overtone yeah yeah that makes the problem that i have a beef especially rent adding on <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> so they don't just kind of like a <unk> space as like an english anyway right <unk> <unk> when he landed on another language say hide yeah exactly they go 'cause sometimes it just doesn't oh sometimes <unk> does it ever actually overlapping the same places [noise] and then another problem i have a <unk> in a different way because they're they're kind of mean nothing on their own so it's like <unk> way to get that to me anyway why should i think there's something new <unk> <unk> it's kind of hide from <unk> come up with new race that i just copy and now that language is i know yeah it is it is hard <unk> again because as i said unless you've got a linguistically aware textbook or language instructor it's very hard to discuss these i remember my high school german textbook was dreadful on these it wasn't until i got to college german that anyone was able to explain to me what the hell mall was for [laughter] [noise] i mean i sort of when you see huge you sort of get a feel for some situations where you can use it but that is a bad way to introduce people especially beginning language instruction that that's dangerous yeah yeah that's actually why before this <unk> i guess i went on a search for um papers about chinese discourse particles because i know a bunch of chinese discourse particles <unk> this is what i'm saying but it was never fully explained to me how would they were used like i always thought that negative was purely just a hesitation marker but according to this paper i found it looked like it actually does other things as well oh well that's good to know i know it mostly the hesitation mark yeah um what was going to say yeah spanish does anyone know waste means <unk> with with um if i think it means something different in every square mile of of the spanish speaking where ah i have um in spanish classes i was taught that <unk> or <unk> which is another very um means well in the in sort of the discourse meaning of well where you are moving on to another topic uh-huh um i don't know if it has any other no it definitely has other means <unk> i'll always remember my friend from bolivia saying that word alone rather angry at her mom hoover responded poorly to that yeah i think it's there um there are also uses with innocent [noise] rather than fronted or or all alone that are a little bit different so maybe we need a linguistically aware native speaker to try to figure that out for us yeah for for for their dad like anyway um [noise] i do think though that if you can look at a collection of different languages and how they do discourse particles you can get an idea of different kinds of mixing and matching that happen naturally yeah that are probably the best way you have to do this without just relaxing your own native language or you know germans are dutch which are up your you know are really popular um dog shows were papers it also it has has to do with um when you're making this course particle <unk> it's gonna be a little bit of an oven art because these sites behind them is a little bit younger so we don't really know much about um that's true they're yes definitely plenty of arguments about what actually these things mean um <unk> you're very silent right now [laughter] i just <unk> yeah anyway what can i don't know i think all <unk> i couldn't do it out to <unk> to find them around but i can't <unk> figure out and [laughter] well it's all an art but usually we're talking about <unk> art informed by science at least if you want to make something naturalistic yeah i think it's it's like pottery right you need to understand a little bit of about the chemistry of your <unk> yeah and and and <unk> what happens at high temperatures to to to do this <unk> i'm kind of passion is like run <unk> just see what happens and lax or like cooking cooking cooking is even notice it better <unk> example you need a lot of chemistry physics basic chemistry and physics knowledge to actually cook properly and not just necessarily that your land so but i do my cooking you have to figure out how to long [laughter] things anyway [laughter] um [noise] anyway so the only other thing that i was thinking that didn't make it on to <unk> meet a discourse particles can do is um they can serve a it's kind of like turned taking but they can be sort of solidarity or anti solidarity markers um plenty of languages have particles or other ways to say things that you expect your audience to agree with uh that was happening i <unk> <unk> yeah that was something i heard mentioned in passing in as involved sing lift particles but oh there's sort of like law and stuff has a little bit of a solid barry sure sure yeah um i think english you know it's a little bit like that sometimes yeah probably it's it's it's so bled of the normal semantics sense of no that that i found it at the interaction all kinds of you know has nothing to do with knowing anything yeah right right [noise] um let's see he right so so far we've been talking about the different things particles can do sort of in isolation um from the standpoint of creating them um very often other parts of speech maybe grabbed and turned into particles um english uses a time adverb now as a topic changer yes right um in english um well among other things can be a topic changer and it's a little informal compared to now which is more formal and frankly in my dialect of english using now as a topic changes a little old fashioned [noise] it sounds sort of teach about yeah teach fears something's gotta tell me a story <unk> right exactly exactly [noise] time that we <unk> right right [noise] um i think i only ever use now in that face now children [laughter] the haze [noise] that's that's that's that makes for more uh i don't know sort of i have the authority to change the topic so [laughter] um [laughter] but as we said so here as well as the topic change but we also use well we're about to say something that we expect are listening will find disagreeable so that's true it there's and there's sometimes some reservation <unk> involved with well right let's see little yeah either either distance thing from the standpoint of the speaker or possibly preparing the listener for bad news yeah preparing preparing the listener for a disagreement yeah [noise] um uh discourse particles um if they are actually particles <unk> six races like english has um was often pattern sometimes with conjunctions they might pattern with mono markers or they might pattern with evidence <unk> <unk> all of those possibilities there's some wonderful confusing combination of them are all possibilities oh so one of the papers i found was an entire chapter underscores particles in a particular dialect is mainly and in that list like discourse critical discourage particle and suddenly it's like oh this isn't evidence <unk> oh wow [laughter] like oh this is a direct century evidence okay [noise] um so if you're going to have a bunch of these discourse particles you might find it useful to look at an old fashioned greek grammar even though it will explain the discourse particles badly but it will let you know something very very important which is if you have lots of particles they will come in particular orders if you use more than one oh okay like so so going back to that you mentioned that a little bit earlier so ancient greek like will stack up a bunch of discourse particles or oh god you all the time in in highly literary <unk> you may get stacks of multiple particles it's it actually gets quite common wow so that's that's that's quite interesting <unk> i'm going to have to read a little bit about that so you're because that sounds interesting yeah i i i don't know offhand what the longest chain is um part of the complexity is that many ah greeks discourse particles are included uh-huh right they become guam number the previous word but there's a much larger clinic chain which includes certain kinds of pronouns as well as you get an enormous pile of words that have no accent of their own [laughter] it's just like this this like <unk> seven syllable that all the scores and racial mostly yeah right or or largely [noise] um i'm going to see if i couldn't find this no i i can't [noise] um [noise] so once you've decided on an order for these particles particular particle combinations might become sort of <unk> on their own and take on their own life can get very complicated um one of my favorite examples again from ancient greek is when two different particles gay which is a selection particle and demand which is this part of the cool where are you a search the truth is something in the face of expecting disagreement surprise from your listener [noise] sort of blondes together on their own and started acting like a conjunction [laughter] put started acting like a post positive conjunction [noise] used in in paired up with a different kind of conjunction i'm not even going to explain that greek has so certain pattern that become popular for whatever reason bull can take a life on take on a life of their own [noise] seems like the course particles maybe one part of the language cops like shifting around [noise] shores certainly um they changed to time and and there's a possibility for a great deal of dialect richness as well um i think that <unk> said at least i i'm at now scientific consideration can sit and play <unk> change like <unk> um no one's <unk> [noise] he will [noise] people may not know what they mean but they have no problem using them correctly and consistently yeah and i happen to extend them <unk> yeah i i think will like go words but i i think i'm gonna i'm gonna be inclined to agree with you that they it does seem like they're a little bit more um liable to change over time mhm right so there was something i was gonna say after that but i can't remember no um <unk> do you have any sort of interesting last thoughts on this i'm not really the only thing i really remember that they <unk> that just pulling caroline go as a second language they have the things that have really gone that <unk> <unk> it's not going to not only <unk> [noise] [noise] right yeah if i [laughter] i think if as your translating things you feel that you don't quite understand your own discourse particles you may be on the right track [laughter] um [noise] i mean that's that's sort of a <unk> in in seriousness you should try to define what they do but still it's going to be a little bit of a fuzzy thing because it's they these things tend to since they're not there's not much not really any semantic information in here it's all sort of discourse operations that they they do it's gonna be a little mind breaking in any naturalistic language that's not your own to really um use discourse particles properly yeah yeah um one thing we've not really talked about is where these particles go um and partially that depends on their history as it used to be an adverb or if it's still an active adverb it also has a discourse meaning willpower like at verbs obviously same with conjunctions [noise] um [noise] in more than one language not just ancient greek the particles accumulate in <unk> position [laughter] yes i know that that term makes some people i think germans giggle when i say that was an english accent um er an american accent so bucket position means that it the particles accumulate following the first content <unk> meaning bearing word and the sentence [noise] but a speaker like <unk> could put um certain particles in three different positions because because the language was changing about where one of things to go in homer he wanted that political to be the first thing possible in a known phrase it would come it would separate uh uh demonstrative from the rest of the phrase it would separate a proposition from the rest of the phrase um but over time that thing could move and show and shifted overtime as the whole phrase together was taken to be the single unit rather than the word [noise] so you might have interesting word order affects depending on what word order you've picked for your language and if you've got a non configurations language and all sorts of <unk> follow but even if you have an uncle figure racial language like the the classic radically non configurations languages such as ancient greek well perry particles cluster <unk> alright we've talked a quite a long time on this and um i'm gonna say beer listeners please sort of pick two or three favorite languages to try to go in deeper on what their their sports particles are uh william like william suggested uh german and dutch and ancient greek all have very um interesting this course particles in why didn't find information on them yes he can find [noise] changes has quite a lot but i can't find a whole lot of information that's my problem uh there's and i'm sure <unk> any of you out there probably know some language where there's a lot of uh these words that you made now <unk> or <unk> to go a little bit in depth on whatever whatever your favorite languages but um [noise] <unk> will <unk> has a nice listed them as well yeah if if but yeah and looking at these things that other languages will will help with um figuring out what you want to do for your own life but for now i think we're going to move on we are going to have a this time we have a featured <unk> and we are talking about <unk> or actually the the says uh <unk> <unk> and <unk> i think these are two very into the same language yes yes sir closely related dialects of um because the way that you knew what caution language family which is another one of these wonderful languages of the pacific northwest with a big big juicy sounding tori yeah and william you found this wonderful paper for us this wonderful grammar by matthew davidson i know isn't that great it's the whole thing yeah with a giant dictionaries magnificent if nothing else if you have no interest in these languages i don't care go look at the dictionary let's let's let's let me i didn't get to the dictionary went oh it's just all sorts of really interesting stuff oh big massive dictionary um [laughter] a little finger in little toe is somehow related to younger brother it seems like [laughter] it's that great [laughter] you can have a family that that that could be like get middle <unk> gotta have met her <unk> and then anyway [laughter] [laughter] i <unk> now okay i'm in l._a. now on line and i <unk> [laughter] that's right that's a great dictionary yeah no it was really great um uh people who are interested in creating dialects of their own language might find it interesting since he's just guessing two dogs at the same time um yeah and he he goes into both of them like yeah i know that he has the phonology one followed methodology the other and then kinda mixes 'em up right right um there are a few reasons why i thought this was such a great language for language and vendors first polly synthesis is popular these days and this is a highly synthetic language um it has <unk> tremendous gigantic list of <unk> that are used to modify the meanings of words mhm um second it has some interesting for the logical processes which we're not going to talk about all of but some of them are very interesting [noise] um and really those are the two um and this is the paper that let me know that <unk> truly meaningless words that you need because otherwise you can't get the meaning from a suffix can actually be used like in a in a naturalistic language so these languages have so many <unk> that very basic concepts like in the river may only be available as uh subjects that you would normally attached to different word wow that's interesting so they have a different a few different patterns of no roots to use that you can fix these things mhm which i would have thought a natural but here it is a very uh very in depth the grammar here for us to look at and i didn't really um this is where i <unk> i didn't do all my homework and that i didn't fully um i didn't really fully look through this whole grammer it's very big i just looked at the the phonology which just the the phonology stuff is massive because there is a whole lot of different um funnel logical processes that go on in this language [noise] right [noise] when i first found this grammar months and months and months ago i immediately downloaded it into my life had it and it was he was bedtime reading for several days yes yeah so i i i have more of it at hands didn't didn't probably anyone else but that's a little unusual um some going to have to look at it a little bit more over the next few days maybe but it's a great uh resource and this is interesting language to look at right um so in terms of for the logical processes the language has both long and short vowels but where the long vowels can occur ours is quite constrained mhm um and they're also if if i'm remembering correctly i should if we read some of this [noise] there are some vowel long bottles that can be reduced and some that cannot ever so you have an interesting mix of possibilities there um it's some of his or some of those are long or short and i think some of them are cats and lack sects but he sort of marks and same maybe because they patterns several like there was an interesting thing in the confidence that you said or the <unk> stop and the fridge fringe realize well stop he actually put in the <unk> because he said they seem to pattern objectives [laughter] and that's that that's sort of made me that that interested me because it's sort of like something you don't necessarily think about that it's just a glut of restriction that affects um how they pattern certainly but uh right yeah it has lots of <unk> like globalized residence as well which is always well it's typical of the north west but a little bit unusual otherwise um so i'm looking right now um page twenty three and you have an <unk> change which is only used for the bucket of mhm so the normal word for chief i wonder if i can say this [noise] with um <unk> we <unk> becomes <unk> way just above i will change indicate that you're using direct address which is pretty interesting um it appears to only happen in the final syllable word [noise] why would you ever directly address the squirrels um they well why did you stay in my neck [noise] made a um it's one of those things of saying thanks though squirrel after he killed it ah maybe i don't know so that was <unk> such a stereotypical <unk> talk about but hey it's saying thank you was nicer than what the money i did [laughter] they they always offered a little blood after they kept okay so <unk> so yeah <unk> everything seemed to become steamed oh if you went to someone they start calling my squirrels that when i go chase them out of my garden there's there's there's not so nice tradition involving hunting that is associated with my family that may have come from <unk> about that after court okay good [laughter] um [laughter] higher chapter on as george that's fun logical alterations short vow or or neutral <unk> talked about before um stress accident shift [noise] can do all sorts of fun things um we have <unk> we have um rate ah fronting processes that happened i'm in certain contexts uh <unk> confidence is always are subject to various fund a logical abused mhm um for me the most wonderful thing but just to use georgia's <unk> broke my brain starts on page forty and then <unk> ethics associated constant battle template so i'll just going to read these descendants here an unusual characteristic of well caution ethics is <unk> is it they impose restrictions on the structure of this constant fouled skeleton of the word containing them in most cases these configure racial requirements have know semitic significance merely formal um common <unk> properties of the ethics in question okay basically we have eleven pattern of what to do with a constant follow pattern numerous kinds of <unk> vowel links changes and constant interruptions [laughter] so links inning um additional syllables <unk> and the secrets to the end sometimes your lungs syllable word application sometime shorts it a little <unk> [noise] the point is that enormous list of stuff is i talked about before tells you what's happening to the root okay so adding do we have a nice example here oh great [laughter] <unk> [laughter] this is a great face each with fingers shut off okay [laughter] so the statistics that indicates something happened in the hands nuke causes a redo publication and viable things change so okay i take the <unk> which is <unk> and add your nukes and then you get <unk> <unk> [noise] new [laughter] [noise] it's er yeah um so the point is a word um becomes changed based on the suffix so here's another one that's maybe the easier for me to say lawn yuck with the suffix heat meaning <unk> so you put them together you get the phrase long live and [noise] but the point is that the <unk> at the limbs forces or redo publication and <unk> and the main syllable so you have yeah yeah see [noise] yeah [laughter] yeah yeah [laughter] so eight forty two is where that's describe [laughter] so what's fun though and it gets complicated is because you can add chains of <unk> which ones do you use to determine the pattern of the syllable too you know that route to what you're suffocating things and i like <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] can you imagine having to learn this i don't know how the brain organizes i don't know how they managed to figure that out yeah whenever <unk> <unk> i'm guessing several generations of feeling with stars are responsible for what knowledge we have <unk> take our way unless yet this grammar is somebody's a dissertation so it's possible that he may be <unk> um just pulling from a lot of field lists and yeah yeah maybe some of it and work and there's a lot of background information anyway so it's been you know thirty or forty pages isn't right you know twenty or thirty pages just talking about these various root changes that are induced by different kinds of stuff it's strawberry up and <unk> [laughter] <unk> that's a great example leg i love i love <unk> ethics that causes that but <unk> <unk> it's um yeah example number forty eight [noise] oh yeah look at that [laughter] so the stuff that you have a <unk> yeah right you have a <unk> indicates something is up in the air or standing selects template except strawberries this gigantic word so right so they say <unk> um be first syllable or the word that seems relevant to to mention you know it just it just like the <unk> the uh for <unk> yeah <unk> and or does other kinds of hanky panky anyway it's an interesting um system i i'm not sure most <unk> wants to produce a full systems complexes this but there's there's a lot of interesting stuff there you have an idea i don't know if i would ever want to make it a language that does this complicated stuff mainly because i don't quite understand it yet i want to do something nice wanted to stay complicated i just don't have the time and <unk> <unk> it would take it would take quite a long time to figure out how this works and you know test out words and see if it looks to your liking getting all yeah yeah that's what that's our jobs can people think it's still a cat yeah certainly it's certainly a an interesting idea i'd love to see somebody uh <unk> <unk> it's just kind of [noise] really um looks really labor intensive to create certainly was even more labor intensive to figure out you know natural language i'm sure yeah yeah so another great example on page eighty for example a hundred and thirty seven a <unk> a dog and a vessel [laughter] okay like what kind of a hassle [laughter] no i don't think uh cooking but so it's not like a dog in a boat or a dog in a boat i <unk> honestly i don't know in a vessel i'm guessing actually needs a boat okay [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] oh well anyway i would joke that i was going to get my cat is liking fee and all [noise] oh really uh some friends in a years and years ago gave a friends most of viking funeral we built a little matchbox [noise] long just ship <unk> looking on fire [laughter] [laughter] oh there we go about getting a vessel yeah unfortunately there are <unk> eighty four did i say yeah i <unk> fortunately there are larger um example phrases incentives further in the documents you can get a better idea of how to express things mhm um you know language that's so heavily suffolk singing and <unk> yeah it is very interesting mm very uh unlike <unk> against the wall [laughter] which is all one word right yeah having what faith in school and [laughter] and it's uh surprisingly short word [laughter] [laughter] yeah and it's uh it's a little tough um what's nice about this grammar is unlike all too many um freely available references um native american language this one actually has a syntax which is useful <unk> <unk> <unk> i'm always trying to find <unk> thinks they're <unk> [laughter] and i like that tai <unk> um people who are looking for more derivation will <unk> will enjoy what they have like so many like when i was looking at <unk> early i like the <unk> not even a <unk> stuck together [laughter] what it is they're saying that was <unk> and that was the lecture rope [laughter] awesome [noise] um anyway so back way down in paged the three hundred and fifty it's like three fifty seven is where they start is um <unk> oh this is a big long list of <unk> in addition to the code which describes which pattern they inflict on the roof which they've been attached [laughter] like they had great <unk> um what else i mean a lot of the derivation elements nothing they don't seem obviously weird a lot of them seem very useful although this one here at the bottom of a page three hundred and fifty nine um the suffix um ski [noise] means using something as fuel <unk> three hundred and fifty nine yeah ah a lot of the very last one so i suppose for you know the spanish inquisition you could attach that to people using people as fuel [noise] um to figure out where because some for me three hundred and fifty nine and and ah [noise] are you looking at the p._b._s. page number all at the actual page number on a page um trying to look at both because of paid in the morning to page told me um three five nine i mean look again it's weird okay anyway oh there we go i see there is a huge lists of these suffix is huge huge huge [noise] um so go look and and get wonderful ideas oh here's a special suffix to indicate that something's been dried that's useful to visit for the purpose of getting seeking yeah we're not that when yeah no that's very useful maybe that's like when you go to a business meeting <unk> parents' house hoping that they'll cooking dinner right here's here's an awesome one so this is a suffix that goes that means consuming costing or having sex sexual intercourse with goodness that's an interesting semantic range [laughter] isn't that i was about to say that [noise] that sounds <unk> upon and one is traveling and blank meaning vehicle traveling by black means so it's sort of yeah so anyway so this is train or something if you can't get marion misuse gigantic overview of all the languages of of native north america this document is your best introduction to um these really wonderful derivation of processes that can be had anywhere it's great every coming or should look at it unless you make these very simple morphological simple <unk> it's lovely it is lovely [noise] but i'm not sure i have anything else to say about it [noise] i surely don't i just say everybody should go to a show notes and get that grammar download it read it um take take a few days to read it if you <unk> if you need to there are there's lots of information on it i certainly don't know i i certainly haven't read it sufficiently yet so [noise] um even <unk> even if you're not interested in making language is like this read the dictionary i say again yeah <unk> do you have any final thoughts on this this like <unk> nothing that you guys have been fed already yeah well i think we can sort of put that on the bed and say uh go read do your homework and i'm going to move on to feedback we got an email really awesome uh email here but uh we've gotten a few good emails recently but i'm going to <unk> i think we need that kind of stretch the map across multiple shows maybe sheila um this one he says this is from jordan of <unk> and he says so first off let me start by saying how we love your pod cast post they provide a great resource for the coddling community me into other friends who <unk> who met online through various <unk> forums or a couple or have started a blog devoted to coddling but specifically trying to provide an easy to understand <unk> resource for new <unk> we have about thirty or more post already and one episode of our very own pot cast that we're planning on running when we were wondering if you could give our blog <unk> either mentioned or a link on while you're next close i will like to this blog that's okay we're <unk> we're <unk> [laughter] responding a multitude of okay one at a [laughter] <unk> yeah <unk> it starts i on our empires coming together [laughter] glance at the toddler blog looks like a good beginner resource and um i i have downloaded the first episode the puck yet i haven't listened to it yet but i plan on checking that out here i thought there was only used for pictures of naked people and cats oh tumblers used for a lot of things i've seen <unk> session k._p._f._a. things [laughter] um okay um you said ah we're we're just a new blood kind of fell on me and the <unk> we feel believe is left somewhat until we by no means what to compete with your pockets ah of course you don't want to compete with us you just do some [laughter] no it's it's good that there's more people um getting involved in the community and and putting out content out there so that's why i started this <unk> oh it was like i wouldn't do pot guest <unk> doesn't really have a <unk> <unk> yes yes which is not frequent enough to be worth anything um agree that there isn't much out there so they can ask 'cause a lot of yeah what i see going on as go look at like a <unk> got like a <unk> and i'm not really not really a big fan of <unk> i mean it'll do but i think something like that it could be done and <unk> <unk> <unk> i mean <unk> there's a lot of good information but if you do not know some stuff than some articles or almost impossible to comprehend studying kind of game will happen <unk> about halfway say if i <unk> you don't know i didn't know until you have to go read that same thing what happened on that one and then you'll have studied tabs open and i have no idea what's happening yeah and uh from what what time ah yeah they're certainly not a whole lot um language <unk> his uh pretty good primer but it's still a little it gets a little bit <unk> nicole um this i can i can i think i can we can recommend just based on the what the blog uh is is it really is a good resource for new babies and even people who want to get into some real linguistics is there they they talk a lot of um explaining terminology here and stuff oh that's very valuable that's great this is this <unk> this really great um 'cause i imagine the <unk> cast is for beginners too which is sort of but not all of us all of us have linguistics some linguistics training yeah well i would say this pod cash [laughter] i'd say is <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah yeah i think we're more sort of an intermediate thing like i mean we talk about some stuff that's at beginner level we talk about some stuff that uh uh more advanced level we're we're trying to be more of a sort of a general weekly pod cash to talk about it's nice to have something that's specifically targeted at beginners here with a deacon trucked in construction and i think um anybody who's a total <unk> listening to us and has no idea what we're talking about maybe you should uh look at that one too what's <unk> yeah [laughter] you know lots of cold [laughter] and uh you know they can ah can ah help answer some some of the more basic questions for ya but anyway i think i think it's a great thing that we're spawning that uh we're spawning a few more effort <unk> uh in the same vein yep absolutely and more gas yeah i can be a <unk> a lot now it doesn't matter [laughter] [laughter] oh well um well um i think we can wrap up this episode i have uh a very long large amount of time on my counter so i think that's that means it's time to wrap it up so i'm going to say for the final time yeah yeah do you have any final words wisdom <unk> kind of thing <unk> now i think that'll eat typical of my response to that question [laughter] ah cut edited <unk> and it's eight [laughter] ah william do you have anything [noise] bianca we'll be back that's my feeling knowing leave <unk> forever [laughter] yes i'm sure that <unk> that uh yes i i do hope that you do come back to us too you know i've got to talk with us from time to time i know that you're busy you don't you can't commit to the regular hosting anymore and um by the way guys i'm already on working on getting somebody else um the film or host lot [noise] because uh we we we do feel like it's best with uh three people on <unk> so [noise] um don't worry there shouldn't be any delay in your part gas coming out we should be having [noise] getting a math or voice on here or if we don't get a voice on here in time we can do just about being william one but i would prefer to have we've done it before you know we've got a half and a couple of times i think i think we could do it if we if it came to that but for now i'm just gonna say happy hotline [noise] thank you for listening to <unk> you can find our our <unk> dot com [noise] comments questions i had suggested this can be said to con winery at gene male dot com [noise] please subscribed to us on high and maybe leave us a five star of you while you're at it [noise] you can also like us face book dot com slash online or he follow us on <unk> on line or or circle us on google plus by searching for <unk> [noise] part the music was created by the <unk> [noise] does the entire t. of the british isles have the same time zone yeah yeah it's not terribly wide oh of course time zones don't make any sense the entire city of china is technically under one times <unk> <unk> <unk> as <unk> as a pot is green light just directly knocking that rich and good times on ice and should be <unk> [laughter] it's like <unk> and <unk> [laughter] this is just iceland trying to to ah to assert but it's part of europe now the british isles just making ireland having ireland be part of the the g._m._t. times and that makes sense to me that it's not like the whole island allocated miles <unk> foot so many of these decisions are just weird political probably miss the whole u._s. for a long time town and it was all like washington time i <unk> basically the equivalent <unk> actually the funny thing on who you talk to it's either bigger smaller it's it's it's a little bit smaller honestly because claiming it's bigger ah requires you to claim all of the territory that kind of claims on the indian border and including taiwan and all that so it's a little different [laughter] she lay has a funny thing remember when when we had <unk> on the show and the first place if you're a good daylight savings time it'll be like why now i guess <unk> type thing but it actually can be the same um during our summer and their winter i think the uh the time is the same for east coast and fortunately but they diverge after that yeah oh for <unk> eliminated <unk> harmless map they just make up their own um there are some places that have <unk> like half hour time zones give a big f._u. to the rest of the planet [laughter] <unk> like i think yes india <unk> yeah uh <unk> what the hell what it is <unk> is off by admitted it is it no it's a half hour oh half hour half hour wait no why is it i don't understand what it means because uh tavist wants to be different from everybody else that's all anyway did he it seems <unk> isn't that good old who go um there was some proposal i read the somebody <unk> suggested moving the international date line so that it just straight up goes right through the bearing <unk> rather than having to drag over but it was uh associated with a um <unk> um <unk> that is true though that makes sense yes oh great [noise] my <unk> because i was too noisy alright [laughter] is that like ah how <unk> uh <unk> george turned down here if you if you um hurt than i think i watched i have that chicken prizes and the guy who's not still act [laughter] no one's knocking at is still laugh so just kangaroos and bugs that'll make you hurt oh man and i told my husband <unk> snake and mac huh he's like well i know like there's not that many that's my <unk> not going outside again like you know <unk> [laughter] years and years ago i think i got bit by some nasty variety of spider and so i went to south america manual to read about spider <unk> okay i'm probably not going to lose [noise] but i was reading about tropical snake bites that happened in the united states there are fifty a year and then work manual which is uh this dry clinical work had just the best sentence ever [noise] that the people who get bit by these snakes are typically young males who have been were who were harassing the animal beforehand and that's the most common course of <unk> dachshund poisoning in the united states is threat boys in california who have been dared to swallow geckos idiot the the national the c._d._c. <unk> not as easy to to help whatever they have some national medical foundation is a big long list of you know symptoms and treatments for these and one of the symptoms <unk> dachshund poisoning is and it actually said this and impending sense of do me i yell whenever i start my toe but i completely ignored the pain from ah my appendix rough during until it oh my god it actually ruptured yes this is why i can never do this show drunk 'cause no one would hear anything else but me [laughter] how many common communities arthur this is just you know found that today and i like new gandhi me a night just to see what they're saying i was like i would not expect <unk>

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  1. Conlangery Podcast
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  3. conlang
  4. discourse particles
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  7. Makah
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Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 41 Discourse Particles (last edited 2017-09-07 05:16:35 by TranscriBot)