Conlangery #43: Adpositions

Conlangery #43: Adpositions

Published: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 04:00:55 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 how long are we see on my phone um on <unk> flung fungus you follow some time [noise] [noise] will come to <unk> catch country strictly languages and the people who create the mind george <unk> i enjoyed over in wisconsin by will you manage hello and over in new jersey by my <unk> how are you doing yeah [noise] so our listeners might notice that i sound different today [noise] um so i actually um i got a hold of some money and i bought a big boy microphone uh that nobody's paying me to say this but i will say just really quickly if you have like eight to a hundred bucks to spend and you want a really good quality mike that you want to use <unk> casting or or maybe making some uh audio samples the what i have is the blue snowball it's a great one so anyway that's all i'm going to say about that but it's it it it's uh doing very well for me is it <unk> it's not mine is actually i got the uh the metallic colored one but but it it has the word blue are printed on it because that's basically the company that makes it so yeah i think you could use it for the the color tests where where where um you could say you know say the color say that say the colored printed on this you know <unk> [laughter] [noise] i don't talk about [noise] yes that's that's funny [laughter] it is funny as the news um so how are you guys doing day doing well enjoying a nice warm weather i'm terrified of mine nice warm weather 'cause it's not supposed to be eighty degrees in march [noise] in with this happens mhm okay [noise] um very often mhm anyway see i had other announcements on it in mind talking about but i forgot the so let's just go into our main topic for today which is and positions so you know some beginners might not know the the term at position that might be more familiar with the term proposition but we were going to say i'd position because basically these are sort of political like things that had our part of an ad position all crazy they're the head of a a phrase and if it's a proposition comes at the stars craze posts position would gum at the end of the parade and there's some more exotic types that will will mention a little bit later but let's get through some of the basics and a little bit of sort of interesting things that you can do it at positions before we get into that so [noise] william what what do you have to say about at positions hair [noise] oh sorts of things [noise] this is another one of those topics i'm like oh it'll be really easy and then i started making notes and it just getting longer [noise] um so the thing is that we call proposition i mean in some sense where we have an easy because everyone listening to this or english speakers [noise] so we don't have to get to theoretical [noise] um [noise] and that positions are just particle like words that mark a bunch of different things [noise] [noise] ah [noise] semantic role some time uh location time marking logical relationships that sort of stuff [noise] um [noise] the the walls people define in that position as a particle that cannot occur unexpectedly specifically meaning in english it's a little tough we can just say in maybe in some circumstances that most of the time you say in the box <unk> okay so they're they're saying basically that it has to have a phrase but it attaches to right that's the <unk> okay [noise] so in the in the european languages like ancient greek or sanskrit the test of a true <unk> ah proposition is kennett be invert compound <unk> okay so you have a bunch of things that are true propositions that get use for everything and then you have better things to act like propositions especially if you're an english speaker they sure looked like proposition [noise] but if they can't form compounds then they're actually usually by orange and not only that we'll talk a little bit about that like how do you create [noise] propositions historically as we move on and and i went to accidently type propositions that have add positions from time to time because except for maybe not a home [noise] uh most of the language is i've studied just use propositions mhm yeah well that's that's the case with me too although i have a little bit of ancillary um familiar already what japanese which gives me at least a little bit into the idea of posters loss and then mandarin whatever it is it mandarin does which is weird we can talk about that 'cause it's interesting yeah um [noise] [noise] [noise] there's an interesting theoretical problem in terms of what's to the border between an ad position and the case marking <unk> [noise] um in particular is once you get into cases of things like instrument or especially location [noise] aren't as many cases are are these <unk> posts positions and i've just become including positions and become climbed out there now [noise] and and they're not mentioned this is because very often these languages construction is transparent <unk> well well speaking of japanese have that problem and that you can't you can't really decipher whether they're push positions are most positions or case markers right right [noise] um and it's a little bit muddled and finished but some of the north caucasian languages like says which has an enormous array of location cases they're all easily decomposed this part says motion towards this part says above mhm and you know you don't have to memorize an entire charge you just memorize the parts and mix and match as appropriate [noise] so i'm not gonna talk about that too much just mentioned that as a possibility that that there's a little <unk> did he there [noise] so i i know for example the persian does not have case marking [noise] but it does have a proposition that is used with definite direct objects mm 'kay which classical hebrew at least also has so looks like a proposition acts like oppressed position but as marking what we would consider court case stuff so [noise] i'm just want to mention the range of possibilities there when cats um and and something i it seems so obvious that i didn't even put it into the notes obviously it's we've said at positions go with a known for instance i go into the store [laughter] [noise] you know i cooked rice with fish [noise] [noise] i went to the store with my grandmother right these these relationships that were in coding go with non phrases or or pronounced huh [noise] um and the reason i mentioned this is not all languages that you use at positions just on their own like we can an english in english i can say i went and uh-huh yeah and effectively in in that sentence in is acting like an adverb i would say you know maybe some people would disagree and there are languages that will not let you do that you have to use a different word when you say something like i went in okay so [noise] and this is why the walls people say you know an acquisition it's something that has to go with uh non france or [noise] uh pronoun substitute so when you say i went in that's almost it's not the same thing but it's very similar to uh phrase old verbs which he use sort of the scene forms of the proposition but they're not <unk> positions anymore right right i think so i mean it it's in english as a little bit tough there definitely it's it's a margin case i'm trying to think of [noise] um but when you say i went in who do you think that it's like an implied phrase like when you say i went in pragmatically you mean i went in the house or something yeah yeah that that i just <unk> yeah it's a difficult thing to to deal with it maybe maybe that's one of those things that when you're <unk> you can definitely say this is the way that this is working even though a natural language is it's often very difficult to figure out exactly what's going on really yeah ah if i can comment on one thing i think i remember from our linguistics class um our professors telling us about a test you can do and it was with um if you can move the what you think of the <unk> the front [noise] for example i think if you say i let the cat out of the bag i i might be talking about the in the wrong test here [noise] but that's what i mean but if you move that out of the bag to the front of a sentence it doesn't make sense out of the <unk> well out of the back of the cat it i think that that would be afraid of herb application of that out of the bag but as i say i went out of the house out of the house i went i'm not sure if that that might be for um [noise] claws boundaries or something like that and that i'm thinking of that's weird i would think that the that cat out of the bag thing might be just telling that that's a set idiom or something well maybe but if you say like i turned off a light and like i say awful lot i turned that's not that's that's true that's that's that that one definitely is as opposed to as opposed to in the hotel i slept sounds weird but it's not the same well yeah that's that's just <unk> right yeah that's not the same this location anyway they're they're simple reason i mentioned this is just to raise it as a possibility for people who creating their languages [noise] and in ancient greek i went in is an impossibility you must i had to create a compound verbal or you have to use a special adverb a form of the proposition so so you can say things like i went <unk> enter right oh i entered that ah obviously yeah okay that that's an interesting thing to bring up um [noise] um what i <unk> i'm sorry okay well what what were you going to say oh i'm sorry to interrupt i was just gonna make them more comment about um [noise] when you say like you know i went in i don't know if that's also maybe just like uh if there's a trace there or if it's just not mentioned somewhere to saying you know that's moms when you're saying like who's computers that's oh that's mom's it's not saying that there's nothing being reference that just that it's not spoken yeah i was kinda trying to get it that much but you know the the caesars theoretical issues that we are not you know but we're not going to really uh answer on that part gas and i don't know how far they go in eating <unk> so <unk> well i just want to raise this is a possibility you might decide as i had been one or two my languages a dad you know <unk> positions must be <unk> and they take no over object yeah that part of it is helpful for con lying that you have what these like three different options uh that you can do <unk> the the ad positions can be used on their own well there you have to be <unk> whether they have i have to be ah stuck onto the verb a as a compound right or or a combination of three [noise] um why don't we move on you also put her in the notes here will you add positions plus hey this is something that i've actually use denying <unk> a little probably not as as well as it's been used in other things i've seen i've seen other uses of it and i've seen i know i've heard of <unk> uses of it that are a little bit more systematic than i actually do but um why don't we talked about my one of your specialties russian does the <unk> yeah but i took a couple of years of russian back in college and russian definitely has case and definitely uses it with proposition and uh it's a lot of fun for people learn [noise] now is russian one of the ones where basically the the meaning of the proposition can change based on what case the the amount it modifies long not for all of them but there are definitely i i can think of one at least where if you use one case with a proposition it means one thing and if he was a different case it means another um the example is [noise] it's just the sound and if you use it with the janitors case it means from like coming down from somewhere [noise] but if you use it with the instrumental case it means with like a company or something so if you say [noise] um <unk> that would be an example of the instrumental like he walked with me and if you said <unk> uh let me think uh i think it's <unk> yeah or <unk> or something yeah i believe it was something yeah yes when ya [noise] that means like it came down from me like an orange then marking on there um william you've mentioned before that uh <unk> <unk> does this and <unk> the <unk> is this like mostly and uh uh european thing or does it happened in other languages i don't know and that's actually 'cause i know i see this mostly any of the european languages where [noise] be at position marks or relationship and the case choice either is used to develop new senses of that ad position or in the case of rican latin [noise] your choice case often indicates motion or location yeah that's what you were mentioning with so i'm trying to think of one that can be used with all three [noise] mm [noise] well the point is if you use something with the data that indicates location with no motion [noise] if you use the <unk> that means motion away from [noise] and if you use the accused me of that means motion towards yeah and we should say clearly these are obviously <unk> examples that we're giving things are just sort of huge onto as to what you can do i think generally they dave and <unk> live or most commonly used the the uh the uh positions to make some different meanings i've heard they're our languages that have a special proposition will case just for objects the propositions russian <unk> case or proposition okay yeah marketing of i think is another one seems to <unk> to get attached to it propositions lot so um i i gather finished i think he uses the positive mostly with their propositions mhm which is a funny choice um i'm spending a moment here trying to figure out what turkish does just because [noise] turkish i know has cases [noise] and i wonder how they interact [laughter] um earlier i think george him and i think to see uh george you mentioned that um some other languages use <unk> for what might be used us case in english or in other languages [noise] i think english uses too in that sense like when you say i gave the book to mom in russia for example there will be native case he wouldn't use a proposition all phrase for two mom or to whom you gave the the book or the <unk> that is true that yeah um english too is uh is is uh a weird thing 'cause you can um you can actually construct a well foreign sentence that doesn't use to use word order i gave mom the book but you also have to doing being like half way a proposition mono halfway i've dated marker so it's kind of interesting there i think that might come from maybe if you take some more <unk> and that type of construction or the more dramatic type i'm not sure what german does i know german has cases yeah i know in spanish that at least like the uh that uh so now like <unk> or you know i gave the book to mom so i don't know if that to construction is more romance [noise] um oh i think only spanish does that and that's related um to enemies see is that recall yeah um spanish has a has a weird thing they also have an alternate instruction but but you don't need proposition sport but where you are using the uh what is it like the included forums though like there was a murder mhm yeah but that's that's uh that that that gets into some very weird things in you know sometimes you get into little weird in between areas when you're working with any of these big categories like at <unk> and stuff [noise] um uh i just thought of another example um english uses the of to represent the <unk> of like yeah sometimes i'll <unk> kind of take over for that but [noise] another example mhm yeah you have um and the the uh <unk> both of those or gender that's true that's sort of and that's actually something that you should consider when you are doing your con lying is when you're working on at positions and maybe thinking about things that ad positions and cases and other things can mark remember that natural language is often use multiple strategies often they have some <unk> sort of slightly different circumstances attached but when they used them but they're using multiple different strategies mark something mhm um why don't we kinda move on 'cause we <unk> good <unk> on this i'd positions in case thing alright so uh before move i can't say with certainty now that turkish is like into european languages in that [noise] different propositions take different cases and <unk> <unk> at the moment i'm taking a quit look here and i i'm not sure that any case [laughter] um [noise] uh is left out of the stance of [noise] okay so it's not just in in the european thing that's one thing i was going to ask because a lot of people who are listening to this <unk> kind of common language that went to avoid things <unk> indoor you're in arizona they don't wanna do the standard western yeah so anyway yeah let's let's move on to the next little mini topic here which is we've been spending all this time talking about positions and it turns out some languages have none that are very very few yeah yeah and they in code everything quite different me um [noise] no big surprise a bunch of these languages occur in the natives united states and south america where it all gets piled up on the verb somehow [laughter] i've been hearing i had heard some <unk> i've seen some people on the boards saying that uh english possibly is on mute has unusually large number of uh add positions in that most languages don't have a whole lot in in the first place [noise] how many do they think english hatch um well that's a question because the the number of add positions english class has is fuzzy because we have a bunch of compound at the <unk> that that becomes interesting during those mentioned that as well as true we have a bunch of languages of native north america [noise] which in codes a bunch of things on the verb um and you know [noise] your location instruments and all of those relationships just become arguments with the verb which hasn't taken on a bunch of markers and many other language like not <unk> and i think the rest of the added baskin languages have lots and lots and lots of propositions [noise] um i didn't verify it didn't go check my navajos dictionary but it either has seventy or ninety plus positions wow mhm [noise] so that's quite a <unk> yeah [noise] um [noise] all of a thing on [noise] [noise] right um it's more usual foreign language to have if it's going to to not have the flourishing collection of positions were used to in european languages to have a small <unk> oh okay you know like one for location one for instrument in a company that things like that <unk> um with everything else mark in different ways [noise] um [noise] so it's very very common in the languages of measure america to have a small number of true at positions and everything else is a noun typically a body now that is used indicate location so rather than i'm standing outside my father you say that you're standing at my father's <unk> [laughter] [laughter] that's awesome and then then that <unk> that becomes the word for beside whether you're talking about a human being or a tree or a gecko [laughter] how <unk> real ribs or not that's what that means you can you can have some interesting sort of derivation is if you're going that route right and some people argue that it is exactly these sorts of known of location or known tainting at these various other relationships that's going on <unk> [noise] i mean you don't have to go into details but they look like post positions that are climbed onto the word so [noise] and as you talked about before how do we count how many of these there aren't english is on top of eh proposition that's that's a curious one 'cause you could analyze it as being a proposition that happens to be a compound or you could have it be uh <unk> proposition all phrase [noise] being use like <unk> so um that's the point and this is very very very common things that are <unk> or or rather <unk> that relates to location are very easily grabbed into service as things that look like propositions mhm [noise] and any sort of now can happen to so ancient greek [noise] there's this word <unk> which is just the accused of of a word meaning um [noise] like favor or grace or things like that and it also means that you do something on someone's <unk> <unk> oh okay right like a sign of factors yeah some some something like that i mean has a bunch of nieces but yeah that's it so now owns can really be easily crab in turned into things <unk> sure act like ab positions in in english speakers would definitely say oh yes that's a proposition well now is can be grabbed but um when you mentioned they send a note uh mandarin seems to grab a lot of verbs and use them as proposition absolutely and that is a very common pattern in south east asia yeah so you could you could go either way yeah [noise] i'm trying to um [noise] george can you produced an example the translation so people know what i mean we say that like so if i go with you some place it's gun yeah yeah that <unk> um and and that just as a verb ultimately originally meaning accompanying yeah youn good means to follow and then walk gunny uh the well we'll give you cheer can mean like i'm going with you or it can mean me and you are going so it's it's even it's even more complicated in that case i think a cleaner example would be a gay were gay mean to you but it's also like uh a day do uh sort of proposition like too right so so that those are those are two good examples of how verbs especially in languages that are not highly inflicted [laughter] mostly waiting languages seem to <unk> yeah uh mike where are you going to say something laws and and just give another example like <unk> like if you sell um it can be just as a clean maybe verbal <unk> this and if you say like you know walk by what psychological and not work side being <unk> or to me i uh i look at it a cop you uh and also <unk> basically yeah and then um there's you can use it also unbearable construction um say basically a progressive [laughter] so if you're doing something i mean i guess you can go off at us i i swear on clay but i'm not sure i think relation or if that's just a convenient uh how <unk> how <unk> yeah yeah yeah and um that that one gets very messy yet but that also that's another thing if you're having a language that has very little morphology and you have the opportunity per refer to just change into uh uh positions <unk> hawk baking also change your dollar thing like add verbs in ah auxiliary of herbs and stuff [noise] sure sure [noise] um [noise] so <unk> one of the things i want to mention uh are we ready to move onto the next yeah sure sure yeah er so especially with [noise] at positions of location [noise] you need to think about how you're going to end code motion if you're going to at all plenty of languages just leave it to context for you to determine [noise] when an english for some of our propositions we do things like i am in the house [noise] versus i'm going into the house okay in is location into is motion on is location onto is motion towards the surface it's something [laughter] so how are you going to sue mark that um you might have a bunch of different propositions which is what english done on and on too that's what that's the choice [noise] one of the choices not being made along with <unk> um [noise] you might use different cases if you have cases to indicate location in motion as i mentioned um creek does latin does the same except it doesn't um distinguish any kind of motion <unk> wait that's not true um [noise] what did you have motion towards motion away from our location not all languages in code all three [noise] for example some will have motion towards and location picked the same point where's <unk> away from will be something else [noise] [noise] and you know linguist write papers about all of the possibilities and and the implications there [noise] um chinese to something completely insane [laughter] in that actual location isn't now <unk> that follows the phrase and then motion isn't coated by either die or tone or what's the other one [noise] <unk> <unk> from towards uh i forget what it is [laughter] <unk> yeah yeah doubt [noise] sorry [noise] so you know in the store basically means you know at store inside yeah um uh 'cause i oh i forgot the word for sure [laughter] i didn't like <unk> yeah but um yeah but the <unk> well so i uh yeah so i had been like in the <unk> yeah that's that's right it's that store inside that's uh we've talked about um chinese location complexes before they get kinda really weird like also the the after bit can be a compound right um with a verb indicating the motion towards are away from right but the but the point areas they're two ways you can interpret that she can either say this is a certain position [laughter] right there is a part of the front of the finance or you could just say that the verbal like propositions aren't cutting motion and then there's a noun phrase [noise] where the laughs the element of that now i'm just happens to always incomes location like above below inside outside all the phones yeah it gets it gets a little um tricky how you want to analyze it and it it doesn't matter i'm just mentioning eases possibilities that you can use in your own language mhm where <unk> can stick with a very small number of troops deposition and using down soon after that people should now here's a question that i want to ask you because i believe i read on walls something about in positions that like are inside they're they're bad position will phrase have you heard of any language that actually uses those or are they like some theoretical thing that somebody made up [noise] [noise] they are a common stylistic variance in both flattening greek okay so they do but it's important you know this is for a non phrase i'm not i'm not talking about cramming things in the middle of a down that like <unk> no no uh in the fixed but in in position they go into a phrase yeah so instead of into the big story you would say big into the storm okay all right so how common or those exactly they're not <unk> not very 'cause i know of no other language i mean obviously they're her depending on you how <unk> between six and seven thousand languages on the planet of which i've only seen the grammar is for a few hundred but i really only <unk> the only ones where this is a regular feature i suppose i should look at the walls and see if i can find that but ah don't have time for that now right anyway that that's that's one other thing you can think about but i don't think it [noise] ah from what i remember the walls was saying this was extremely rarely so you know if you don't want to bother with trying to figure out how to do that then don't worry about it but you know that's another option um so i just want to talk a little bit about various kinds of morphology you might get four at positions however many of them you decide to have of course [noise] we didn't have them independent words meaning they can bury their own stress accent and they can come before or after propositions post position mhm um and we have certain positions um some people argue that the english raised from now on <unk> is a kind of certain position oh the from and then now i'm from a non <unk> in the middle [noise] um it is often common that these words to not get thrown accent so they are um [noise] either pro clinic or included [laughter] mhm mhm which means they have no accent and you can either write them as part of the word they go whether or not as you've seen fit mhm um [noise] um they might behaved differently with known and pronouns i miss is quite common in lots of languages so like celtic languages do this semitic languages do this to add to baskin languages do this [noise] where [noise] their independence with now [noise] [noise] but when they combined with pronouns you get a glove together for [noise] um the celtic languages are notorious for having big charts ivy regular essentially proposition conjugation do you have to memorize oh i i i can think of one example of this happening yeah romance language in spanish uh with known becomes corn meal right and that's the the <unk> the salt example of that i think in spanish yeah it's it's not a regular process in spanish <unk> more you know it happens more to more things to all of them [noise] to all of them out here [laughter] that sounds difficult [laughter] um there are patterns so i'm making it sound a little bit worse than it is but some of them are a little bit irregular as you would expect overtime [noise] otherwise undecided languages are pretty easy pretty um analytical you can usually tell them apart although the winston cup that can be weird um in the case of not a ho all posts positions are attached to um [noise] they're always suffix on a pronoun form [noise] okay you you can't say i'm i'm trying to think of an example so my mom is <unk> and i can't say with my mom i have to say my mom with her so <unk> <unk> <unk> means with and or rather that bit means her and that means [noise] so you you know you say i went <unk> um the store intimate so is it really so much that it is uh compound or more but the posts position using <unk> everything that goes on to pronouns whatever person the number and stuff ah i've been trying to standard <unk> well i'm just thinking well i guess it's the same thing is yeah my <unk> doesn't another yeah i think that's right i think they're they're they're a favorite <unk> somewhere my care i don't yeah i mean what i'm saying is you could have uh an alternate way of doing this where the um the the the um that position actually had some sort of agreement on it even though that may or may not be what you went on here but you may just be just a compound yeah it's not really agreement because there isn't gender it would be interesting though if their languages where'd that wouldn't matter mm we're bike the man with him or the woman with her <unk> would be different i might be more interesting if it were like the duck and the toothpick if those required different pronouns with <unk> [laughter] <unk> right <unk> obviously man and woman or our special [laughter] anyway right so i'm just mentioned is all of these relationships that were used to thinking of with above on i love <unk> has a special ed position that just means [noise] under the blankets with [laughter] hey they if they need it yes that's that's very useful in your senator examples yes yes in my <unk> example yes he was under that yeah [noise] um uh arizona winter's can be called um [noise] but all of these things that were used to thinking of as having <unk> are these phrases [noise] you know i went on trying to think well whatever [noise] um the man with him is how that's all we has to be said [noise] um [noise] your language might have a bunch of independent propositions but a few that are included or post clinics so most of the semitic languages have independent pronouns but there are two or three [noise] that are always effectively <unk> <unk> do you mean i <unk> i do mean proposition sorry okay <unk> yeah [noise] um in decided languages they usually come before but yeah [noise] um so um to with and like are the candidates invested semitic languages that are <unk> and then the other things are independent words i'm sorry you said like i would like similar similar similar oh okay okay okay yeah um was going to say um if you have <unk> turning into <unk> positions they might act weird mhm you might have a normally proposition language but these oddball <unk> might act like who's positions because really there just to things and [noise] part of a non phrase ultimately [noise] so i'm just mentioning that as as different kinds of mixed in that something that you do not have a one hundred percent perfectly regular system of propositions no i have a good question um regarding the pre fixing and this might be a question that you've already answer for it but um [noise] is it just do a thug <unk> proposition or um is it something in the way you pronounce it because i know in boston you said um two and with in russia for example the word for with is the right about it through another separate word so where's that line yeah i i think that's a choice you get to make when you're creating your own language if the word can baritone stress accent then i would be inclined to write it separately mhm but if it's a <unk> you know it could go either way do you write it within or do you write it not with it and talking about natural language is there's a whole bunch of you know different very fuzzy little things where you have to test about whether what what about what kind of thing you did but when you're crazy con lying you can just kind of decide whether you're going to write it this way and what you're going described as right yeah right i didn't present interesting problems for especially our manuscripts of america greek [noise] they were confused all the time about their propositions is this part of the falling where does it not part of the falling word and it sort of keeps editors busy making argument station for or against him [laughter] well there you go [noise] right because most of them were pro clinic they had no exit have their own accepting that we are cases where they could be used as post positions and they sort of magically produced or their own accent [noise] um [noise] yeah we don't need to go into that um is there anything else about the morphology we need to talk about i mean we've not gone into great detail on just mentioning the big possibilities i some people can figure out on their own if they're doing well i suppose it's worth mentioning [laughter] but if you have an s. o. v. language mhm the likelihood that you're going to have pushed positions is pretty high and if you have to be aware of e._s._o. than the likelihood is very high then you're going to have proposition yeah it's what it's related to the just the the the um the position of the verb an object whether you have it but you don't have to have it that way no you don't have to i'm just saying that it is much more likely here it's uh it's <unk> this is a general tendency it this <unk> gets into the the the big linguistic ah category of uh had initial one had final which i don't think we really want to talk about here that was our type <unk> episode yeah you <unk> if you download our type all at the up so we were there i'm sure that we mentioned it there i haven't listened to it <unk> like but i'm sure that's episodes six isn't it i have no idea but uh yeah but yeah basically for the purpose of this one yeah what william was saying is true basically if you have the object comes before the verb then you're more likely to have <unk> from that becomes after the <unk> [laughter] [noise] um what else can we really say then um did you mention this note you said mountains that are turned into propositions can have odd syntax that is what i was just saying they they might be post positions and otherwise proposition allow a cab i must've kinda spaced out a little bit oh you have some notes about syntax with proposition <unk> nothing really big [noise] it just questions that the language designer should answer uh-huh first of all [noise] do you have a special for for predicates proposition of prices mhm in english i can say i am in the house i am with my [noise] senator [laughter] and we just use the normal english popular [laughter] ancient egyptians in all of its periods was obsessed with distinguishing had <unk> like predicates from other kinds of <unk> [noise] uh-huh so uses a different for for either i am there or i am in the store was different from i am a doctor there are a little cat um [noise] and then the other thing is um attribute eve proposition or end position of phrases english is very loose he goes to you about this and we can say [noise] be man on the moon mhm mhm [noise] um maybe if you're a <unk> she might argue about whiz deletion and you say oh this is really short and for the man who is on the moon but the point is a lot of european languages let you use at position of phrases to modify other now [noise] some languages do not like this at all and require you to link <unk> with some overt syntax oh interesting [noise] like how would you say the man in the winning chinese it'd be you know some things on the moon <unk> on the moon ah man yeah yeah you have your uh you know in an hour to <unk> to er <unk> <unk> <unk> nearly the none of them anyway then at the point is [noise] especially for english speakers it will be very easy to accidentally fall into the trap of just reproducing this syntax mhm uh-huh but just be on the lookout when you have eh position phrases as a credit not <unk> excuse me as an attribute but i don't know [noise] you might have to come up with something else [noise] um <unk> we will be seeing something else in fact in the ah [noise] the the feature calling today i think when i <unk> i don't think he dresses as you but i'm guessing he would use the funky h. thing oh [laughter] yeah my funky age thing very well <unk> right [noise] um [noise] and then i mentioned we already talked about how in in mandarin die can be used indicate progression of yeah progressive aspect mhm yeah you have well just in general chinese uh <unk> positions are often all sober and also add verbs or auxiliary verbs sorts of stuff sure yeah i just wanted very fuzzy right i just wanted to mention about the fact that other languages had decided to use um add positions do the same thing all of the celtic languages mhm are happy to use at positions with verbal downs to mark aspect okay and you sometimes here this in strong variants strongly irish eyes or killed sized variants of english [noise] we'll use i am you know <unk> going to the store or things like that are on on <unk> i forget which is using they're speaking english but there's several of these ad positions are used as a verbal mountains to include aspect i think upon going means that you're about to go for example <unk> okay in well i'm forgetting these uh one of them has that's i'm sorry i can't recall it offhand but again like in english [noise] i think uh going at one point was like <unk> going <unk> right [noise] that that that might be the same thing i forget the details of that but i just wanted mentioned that it's not just mandarin that's done this but even celtic languages haven't decided to use at positions tune code other things and language <unk> like aspect well um above for you guys live there any more stuff that you guys want to say about uh positions in general any other little things that you'd caught um yeah uh i well two things on to mentioned one um is your freedom i know natural language like english sometimes [noise] um what you're trying to say it can be ambiguous in the sense of <unk> how about some antics or if what case you're trying to in code [noise] like if you say i saw the man with a telescope do you mean you saw the <unk> men using this health club or you saw the man who had a <unk> oh yeah that's that's [noise] that's an important point i think that's one thing that we haven't mentioned so far is that um uh <unk> positions often have lots of different sort of meanings if you tried <unk> dictionary definition to um [noise] and those i think when i was learning a foreign language is one of the biggest things that i saw having very different sort of semantic field was the propositions probably because there's so much like a grammatical thing right i agree i always find these very hard and when i did e._s._l. tutoring the difference between in in on mhm drove one of my students just not quite two years but it made her very crabby yeah it it it it is a little uh difficult if you have a language that does the english them [noise] yeah right yes so she was in ah and have jury and speaking french [laughter] well right right and i mean i i remember french propositions being a nightmare and there often highly idiomatic which is certainly sort of what you're saying [noise] in a good dictionary with proposition or post position heavy language you're gonna have lots of and trees with the [noise] certainly lots of items in my navajos dictionary are verbal plus add position having that particular not necessarily predictable meaning <unk> yeah just as much as english i put up with [laughter] not not does not mean that some of it's <unk> yeah [noise] yeah like uh giant phrase over basically right and and this gives you an opportunity also for if you enjoy creating subtleties and you're <unk> <unk> are a great way to to add to that <unk> yeah okay um [noise] so uh that was the one thing i want to mention [noise] and then the second thing that i want to mention was that uh i was thinking about using maybe when we were mentioning those three things towards from an location um i don't know if they're any language is that do this but perhaps you could use different um different techniques to the thing was some from the others i was thinking amusing [noise] prep pre positions for maybe location and then post positions for using movement and i don't know if that's common um i had it where that the um there was a location that would be after the verb but it was for movement there'll be new for the verb so that uh <unk> opposition would be kind of linking them but i mean just even feel free to mix it up especially when you're constructing language that three as something that you're you know creating from your brain um you're not stuck in a box huh i could see that happening actually um if you're if you are doing a naturalistic language i don't know if you're if you're you do that as much as we do might but mhm if you're doing on naturalistic language you could take advantage of what ah william was saying about um at positions derived from now having different syntax sometimes you know you could have like a proposition heavy language and then have all your location propositions be just regular proposition that have been there for a long time and then it just happens that most of the motion ones are derived from the mountains [noise] we're probably actually vice versa but yeah i mean look at it i was <unk> mhm yeah the location is probably more likely to be derived from mountains i knows just happened to be <unk> because they just happened to the end up there mhm that <unk> ah i think basically that could be your <unk> your historical <unk> for that system occurring yeah that it because one of those happen to be mostly <unk> than they happened to end up in the opposite position promotion but uh i <unk> yeah um if nobody has anything else to add here i think um we can <unk> i we don't have any like nice papers or anything we're liking too but i did <unk> i am looking to some walls chapters so that people can get an idea of how common some of these different things dealing with uh um at positions are [noise] and if [noise] and uh going on i think we're going can remove onto our future con line then sure i think that's fine okay i'm going to try to pronounce this one [laughter] [noise] i'm not at all try [laughter] [laughter] very difficult for brown blank <unk> um it's called union <unk> i didn't get the the the the second <unk> right but that's fine uh this was created by a uh uh a a listener too the show <unk> and this was the his response to our uh our homework assignment that we gave an episode three five uh the appalling donkey beating story that george concocted yes and no as a test of of how you deal with all these transit typically issues without case [noise] we've got we've got a few different submissions but i wanted to highlight this one and william actually suggested we do it as a feature con like because what he gave us was uh nicely form added p._d._f. uh full grammatical sketches of the language and you know so much work went into this one that we really have to sort of break down the stuff here's what he wrote in his email you said hey guys here's my try it occasionally con like exercise sorry it's a little late incoming but i was busy last few weeks and i'm only now catching up with <unk> well that was <unk> many weeks ago and he sent that but anyway it's been a good many years since i sketched out more than a phony <unk> apologize for being a little rough well it's not really that rough me [laughter] it's crazy well thought out for just a one off sketch in order to translate won a story about it uh it's a terrible person [laughter] ah one one little favorable here but there's a lot of interesting as far as the assignment goes the the the main thing is that he used a couple of techniques that we actually mentioned i think in that what he did was he used a lot of voice your juggling in order to keep the uh the the right thing in the focus and focus on on everything like he and his translation of the story <unk> the uh specifically the but the the horrible person that beats a donkey at the uh the the most salient things are out right and uh he uses proximate <unk> in order to do the crucial distinction um between <unk> donkey beat her and his <unk> which obviously those are going to be at the same hand with see that's why i chose half to two dude [laughter] um so i don't know that the basic so he has an inverse voice as well which which helps him out with that juggling um and he had some some and see a little bit of a i had uh some interesting animosity thing uh william you were talking about a whole bunch of different things that you were saying about this right [noise] yeah um [noise] do we want to hit you <unk> do we want to do just aren't normal thing and hit some of the background the phonology a little bit before we start looking into [noise] um all of the things he did first to address the issue of her assignment and then there are a few other things that are interesting just on their own yeah automatic <unk> <unk> this is this says it's not a quote unquote complete language but it is a very detailed sketch so yeah i think i was just saying that uh front so that people knew a little bit about yeah i reminded or <unk> let's talk about starting with phonology and some other interesting things about the language that may or may not related to the assignment here oh sure [noise] um it has a nice well how would i say that the so mean inventory is pretty small untidy [noise] but he has some radical processes that leads to felt fanatical processors which means they phonology is pretty robust yeah almost doubled yeah um almost double by phone on do you call it ultra nations deriving from a single continent yeah uh <unk> here yet [noise] um [noise] that some interesting stuff but [noise] the base funny mandatory is interesting in itself because it has um it has to employ shoes it's not uh it's quite a symmetrical but not <unk> gone crazy age symmetrical no i think this is naturally metric all right so we have <unk> bealer unqualified which only <unk> h. [noise] yeah no it's quite quite realistic right yeah there are no voice <unk> stops that our normal there are simply to employ citizens mhm there's bah [noise] and that there's a <unk> inclusive that all three of us have difficulty saying [laughter] yeah yeah yeah [noise] boston ah down and down and do it yeah so i can say right and also as a as a result of these alter nations both of those can be <unk> well that's not true oh is it not actually <unk> eight and it's simply couldn't first breath the voice on the following foul ah okay that's still a little confusing <unk> he has all the normal close which can be <unk> and then as it could be asked brits <unk> and then you can you can deep voice nasal which is <unk> because the liquid also can can be <unk> yeah all all all sorenson can be but i was mentioning nasal because you don't see a lot of hotlines with worthless nasal well yeah i know [laughter] i was thinking of using it just for that reason um one of my way back in the day uh really does i would think anyone who's motivated by cinderella <unk> might have them 'cause it's the future of well [noise] anyway [noise] so he has this inventory of constants all of which can be afflicted with an h as part of a grammatical process and different things happen you either get aspiration or breath the voice or voice listen to us [noise] um [noise] he has a five hour system but it's unlike any five hours system i've ever seen and it's it's completely bizarre it's like he it's like <unk> like one form of the square system mhm and then through in uh central uh high central vile the e. mhm <unk> yeah right to have e. e. ooh ah now i could see i i'm just going by japanese i could see a historical situation where you had a five hour system with e. <unk> uh all uh and then have for some reason god knows why on rounding up here <unk> giving you [noise] but anyway um to me that's the hardest thing in this like which is to get his bottles right it's very bizarre <unk> i don't know it's a very bizarre but i have a hard time with it when i don't think it's too unusual it's <unk> i don't know if it's um it's not unrealistic it's interesting it might be that might be uncommon yeah a very <unk> and would it would be a very rare thing oh north an oxymoron yeah well it's i don't know about that but um and then it has a two tone system mhm oh it does although the hi tone yeah it occurs alright [noise] um [noise] and three to songs [noise] huh yeah i wonder which i can't put out um so that's pretty and and the simple um we're in shapes and so all shapes so that's fine [noise] um [noise] he also allows tolerance to be a select nucleus [noise] <unk> they're very interesting um <unk> can also take a tone although they're limited in the <unk> they can be an which is again [noise] expected unusual um before we get to the issue of keeping track of who's doing what i mean we don't language without case marketing [noise] <unk> um he's got two grammatical things they're neat we have the <unk> [noise] um which i would frankly see more as an attribute if marker [noise] yeah and that and that's a <unk> h. and that's the thing that causes mayhem on the following word yeah it causes <unk> actually kind of disappears men causes craziness i'm falling word writers isn't it yeah apparently it can appear when the word is <unk> <unk> when it's claws final i don't know when that would happen huh [noise] in any case the word for house is <unk> uh [noise] and when you say my house you have the weren't for uh in the front with this h. which then disappears [noise] um <unk> um <unk> and so what you end up with this is paul huh mhm yeah [noise] [noise] oh anyway um i am not going to try to say the man who sings because that involves <unk> in close to followed by <unk> [laughter] and they'll create rising tone [noise] well i can do are are so raw ah um [noise] it's it's very hard for me it sounds funny yeah anyway [noise] um and then the other thing he does is he can nominal lies verbs and phrases [noise] with a um pro clinic s. mhm and what strikes me about this is that this is exactly the same pattern it's used in the safest languages down too and including the sound s. being used for this job yeah so i don't know if you say these languages or if he's just channeling the spirit of [noise] the same as languages for some reason [laughter] that's that's uh that's that's a really interesting uh i like that he used this i'd say he use this to choose to um to uh figure out how to say to translate the donkey peter [noise] right right because um i don't i don't have this uh i just have the non lizard he has that is a horse beating <unk> man here and it's a whole <unk> [noise] [laughter] [noise] that's that's difficult so so we'll go easy uh uh <unk> means to beat scott i'm mean speeding well uh-huh right um well it seems like i think it's actually <unk> s assimilate than ah place by the hill or like uh on page fourteen has stock on the phone [laughter] rather than ah an interesting thing is uh this is hard it was man uh hi yes ah mickey i mean horse then so right and uh <unk> <unk> home is the right to let it simulates place <unk> yeah all right so would that be <unk> no that's already there's <unk> except it's eh also <unk> <unk> <unk> [laughter] sorry [laughter] <unk> [laughter] the point is snicker <unk> easy for the sound at the <unk> the letter e. prevail that that is um but but well i'm basically that was available for him to you because he didn't have any or anything so anyway the point i'm trying to make is the entire an entire phrase <unk> twain he uses that too good effect um in in the story [noise] um he has a pretty tight um intimacy hierarchy which is neat because that runs into our issue for the assignment um [noise] one thing that was interesting to me is that <unk> <unk> are avoided as the subject of firms <unk> which doesn't figure into this time but it's interesting that he thought of that yeah right oh i thought out um animate participants resist placement in the objects than tactic position when an enemy participant isn't a role that would normally place it in in o._c. tactic position i either pay should have a transit event [noise] the argument well generally be shifted out of the opposition to some other position of higher prominent [noise] the higher the agency argument the greater the pressure will beach pretty argument to be or co reference [noise] um to be in or call restaurant with these subject occupant [noise] um this will even be the case if they object position is just a post additional phrase [noise] with the high agency participant as it's nominal head and he's got very strategies to address the issue [noise] um we went to the s. position by use of the inverse parking which charge mentioned [noise] or <unk> off to topic or fuckers position [noise] and again here's another piece of careful thinking um things that are topics are unambiguous sleep definite again very common but thank you for mentioning that don't just tell us we have a topic will say hey the topical has this um definitely just implication [noise] 'cause that's very calming but not all languages actually make that required and he has [noise] and uh he does a very good thing for his word or admit he put topic at the front focus back that means they're in very different position it's not easy confused [noise] [noise] right uh i don't know how come and that is a national language and i'm so used to because i care most a deeply about topic and focus constructions in ancient greek [noise] i've read a lot about that in hungarian which follow similar patterns [noise] um so i don't it just seems a little weird to me to have topic on one end and focus way up yet i uh i had a question about that i'm sorry to interrupt though [noise] go ahead um i was asking george before the show um that it was really oh i thought it kind of just felt really weird them separate like that um are there any instances you can think of where they work with a little bit like that were asking about just the the fact of topic and focus being separate things right oh yeah the uh coming from that question is that usually i think they will find the same <unk> uh references to the s. o. v. i. c. o. and in which case you can either just you know say oh the topic and folks are over there you don't have to actually separate them apart and say this is this this that and if you <unk> what <unk> what isn't there it doesn't um half it's not overly selling their it's not you know confusing um so that's why i was asking about that and what do you think about that i'm <unk> i'm trying to suck through my mind here yeah i i think maybe one can make an argument that latin follows a pattern quite like this [noise] in fact a lot like this except for the <unk> dancing which latin and less worried about our worries about different ways rather um so i guess this isn't on reflection quite a strange topic but topic and focus we should uh we should mention that topic and focus it's sort of language independent what they are but they are often different things than this one topic is unambiguous <unk> and i think topics usually are something that's been mentioned before this course whereas focus is often use to produce something new new or especially weirder salient are requiring special attention somebody i mean we talk in which episode was that when we did the whole topic focus dance quote unquote emphasis episode maybe yeah yeah right right we certainly <unk> they're so yeah they're they're they're different things and you can have 'em in similar positions or and completely different positions i guess but i don't know in our language was very little morphology i think it might be helpful in this case but he has the <unk> opposite positions on the sentence um particularly focused being on the other side of the <unk> from everything else so it's very you know it's very mark the position of it right right well those are your choices for focus [noise] mentioned it right off the bat or finish off your message with that i mean english puts focus last typically [noise] um but we don't naturally <unk> iceberg readily in english [noise] [noise] in any case i mean i've i've just mentioning that that these are various tricks he uses you meet these requirements for not having highly adamant entities um be the direct object of herb um he's got his pronouns which are also part of a hierarchy and as a stretch match that includes a proximate and i'll be a tube or i'll be at pronoun which is neat [noise] who's <unk> who's let's alien [noise] um and then he has an additional third pronoun which is very little agency or inanimate [noise] um which doesn't make that that's where my <unk> the the thing that made [noise] well i was most interested in <unk> is how he actually used it in the translation because basically throughout the translation i think i mentioned the at the top of introducing this language he kept the the donkey beating man at the center of the discourse he was usually uh in uh topic position he was uh he also <unk> voice like a couple of times to keep him at the front and then so he was always proximate and any of the other characters were always obvious throughout the story so he was he sort of twisted the discourse to make sure that he could distinguish the donkey beating man from his neighbor yep [noise] and i mean [noise] because i can i'm calling this language that the language william can't pronounce [noise] um [noise] but to see this most clearly an action down of the thing and look at sentences eleven in <unk> <unk> that time he didn't say anything at all well who the hell is he well we know who he is it's i'll be tips so it's the man who is trying to teach his neighbor lesson and then <unk> uh-huh that's it's the neighbor yeah right it's the neighbor and then sentence twelve <unk> in his glossy gave the translation our main character was seized and playing in the actual translation he just used approximate so he used approximate and an inverse because he needed to avoid him being a direct object broke her mood who can whatever yes [laughter] [noise] yeah <unk> <unk> [noise] to a tropical salt anyway um so he does it get <unk> among the interesting things for verbs because he does has very little uh morphology as we normally understand it [noise] um he has a bunch of ease particles to indicate things like perfect eerie alice potential he has a mirror tiff sentence particle yeah i wasn't sure what that was <unk> something that's surprising oh okay [laughter] things like [laughter] your daughter plays piano so well [laughter] [noise] oh and this he actually use this in the story it um i think he used it to to know if that was surprising that the neighbors started beating the donkey meeting man right but here's something interesting if you look um page eleven he's done something very interesting if you market for with erie alice ended them eruptive that's the future tense very fascinating verbal plus <unk> plus <unk> expresses necessity i love this kind of thing that we're we're things like mood like things and like where moods and other things end up being bombed together <unk> completely different meanings right [laughter] no um <unk> uh <unk> yeah let's go dancing er suggestion yeah well it's sort of it [noise] it's a mood that is sort of like an imperative for the the the or the group including the speaker so like the spanish bombing us is like a horde <unk> just like <unk> and yeah [noise] um so he was a long list of these <unk> the most interesting one because i hadn't noticed this until just now and it relates beautifully [noise] to the topic of the day [noise] ooh is the incentive auxiliary verb meaning you know you're starting to do something or you're about you know getting into a state [noise] possibly related to add position in too so [noise] first of all it you know it's an invented languages but he's described it as though you know we're uh an uncertain <unk> just about the orange and in this but he's related it too in that position which i thought was fifty <unk> so i don't know any i'm going to um uh this guy has given us permission to publish this ourselves so i'm going to be linking to our um to the uh translation exercise and people can look at this p._d._f. himself i think it's a very good thing for people to look at like especially if you're not wanting to page through a giant long ah grammer like we had <unk> and stuff this is a a fairly short thing but still covers a lot of the bases here so um yeah and this can be sort of uh if you're if you're not if you don't have time to or not up to reading up big full grammar this little sketch here it's about twenty pages um well um and uh has a good amount of stuff in it um it does lots of tasty delicious stuff for people who wanna step away from the european yeah land to everyone has a little bit of a dictionary attached to it the dictionaries fun because you see things that he never mentioned the grammer for example it sure looks like um <unk> is yeah you'll process uh-huh in this language mhm [noise] um we have several it's vocabulary so um raw means sound or sounds or to make it sound but raw raw means to sing [noise] yeah that's also in a more <unk> more <unk> and <unk> <unk> two screen right right right [noise] so uh there's i mean even though the vocabulary is a whopping [noise] four pages not quite four pages there's little interesting yeah <unk> went on there again he was making this for us just to translate that one story but he went sort of above and beyond and giving us all this information yeah one other fascinating thing on some glass or was that um well i i'm probably gonna what's right but it has that uh and plus uh voice palace whole uh <unk> there but i guess he is to go in that same uh i guess syllable appears in the verbs to give to sell on <unk> so it's i think it's really nifty to see that connects <unk> he'd arrived those from you sure did because so he has uh the mole oh god [noise] you mall [noise] to the mall is related to the word for ask which is just a mall yeah so the give agriculture apply and to give to give <unk> uh excel and to give to receive um to give <unk> to to <unk> to go receive rather to go <unk> go i'd <unk> that's interesting [noise] so yeah no just these little even in the short spaces lots of little [noise] little easter eggs [laughter] mhm [noise] and then he has the uh i guess this is uh this is the post position he that all sorts of <unk> he he has lost his two at until up too and basically it he says it it can be a goal or a low could do basically marker <unk> um yep yeah so i don't know if there's anything else we can say about this uh except say uh please look at this grammar sketch because we think it was really well done and look at the example i mean there there's no point for us to simply you know pick apart each individual sentence and which are the pronunciation maybe you could provide it's a wreck recordings of part of the um [noise] um but we don't there's no need for us because i mean the syntax it's quite a bit different from english and and he would just be easier frankly for people to go look and and see the the little things he did yeah you you can look through he has full and are lower your loss of horse or his translation which is very uh positive that's one one reason i didn't uh really go through everybody else's submissions 'cause it a lot of people just gave me big block attacks and i'm like i don't know what you did [noise] uh so yeah this is i don't know uh one thing i do on a <unk> that there i mean people who are new to linguistics or not very familiar with times it maybe a little bit more happy to read because there are times like you know <unk> are quick um and i'm not sure what different levels of listeners or people were coming to look at the <unk> but i'm just i want a highlight that say don't look at the at the first page you're like oh my gosh i lost [noise] um yeah and our feedback today is is is from somebody who might be a little bit lost and some of the terminology uh based on what other things he doesn't know so um we i know we do have less than you are beginners i still look at it and see see what you can <unk> um but definitely it's a good example of how to at least how to structure grammar true mhm um even though it's just the <unk> [noise] it's a sketch let's half as long as my whole thing on i <unk> i'm not gonna say anything about it um [noise] uh ten we move on to feed back then since [noise] sure so we got a question from matt from oklahoma i love that that we now have our <unk> we just got an email from somebody who does the the main from state thing that's funny i liked but anyway i guess the question i am new to the whole con line concept i've been <unk> week one when i read about it on the on line mailing list i've been working on the subject for years at this point but i still haven't started [noise] your pot cast is the first place i have heard about ita i've downloaded the chart from what <unk> is there some way to make sense of it i mean if <unk> somewhat necessary for others to understand what you're doing i have no formal linguistics training any help with i p._a. would be appreciated okay so i am going to link um there are several um sites that do this but i'm gonna linked to one site that has basically uh and <unk> chart where you click on it it has some sample and that might help you out a little bit um i can't i don't think we can't really explain to you everything about ita uh we we also almost have to do a whole other episode what the topic on arctic your report medics which [noise] i don't know if we really want to do that as a topic if anybody can help this guy um with well i think i think there are a few things we can say yeah v._i._p. h._r. it's sort of like deep periodic table of elements in that the location of a phony in that chart tells you things about it [noise] yeah so as you move from left to write you move from your lips down to the back of your throat and even further down into you know like you're <unk> yeah [noise] where english sound to not normally happen mhm [noise] and then from top to pop bottom tells you the manner of articulation how are i mean where's the sound happening and what exactly are you doing to make the noise so that might help you a little bit in sort of just thinking about why it's laid out this way and and these days most <unk> lay out the sound system's of their language in this [noise] lay out even if they don't label the roads in the columns [noise] yeah and so it is very important to you familiar to <unk> yourself with the the lay offs and that's what what william was talking about is what i was <unk> uh talking about what is your this is sort of an articulate court medics type deal is that yeah its place and then manner of articulation and i'm sure we can <unk> we can probably find some um <unk> we probably need to find some ah resources that have explanation of the different manners articulation because yeah i mean i <unk> we could sort of sit here and explain um what they are it would be kind of yeah well we <unk> i don't think we need i think a good start is <unk> is really good about giving you <unk> uh we can include this once i find it is david page of here's english <unk> p._a. <unk> i i dialect mhm so if you [laughter] know dialect <unk> english you speak you can go and you can look and then you can start to match these crazy symbols to sounds you're used to and then as you get further into this lovely hobby you can start to map there's symbols to sounds maybe that are not in your native language yeah one thing i was going to um <unk> is that [noise] you know you don't have to when you first look at it there are a lot of symbols on there that aren't very many languages um like very few languages have [noise] like <unk> or clicks or uh or <unk> bilingual trail uh lateral circuit of i mean you know there are lots of the sons are not necessarily um infrequent you and i think that maybe just looking at like you said looking at one for english or if you're familiar with another language like spanish [noise] looking at that and just sort of figuring in your brain okay this symbol means the sound uh no linguists or at least myself and a couple of my friends we had a couple of times we were sitting around and just making funny noises that we were trying to pronounce what that symbol laws and walk by and they're like what are you doing where like were practicing and we're all this like ooh and [noise] and it was fun if you if you speak spanish and read spanish and you find a chart but also includes the or coffee that would be helpful because uh spanish <unk> very transfer as to how it relates to the ponies um there's other languages that you that that would that would have the same trick okay there we go william has the link to english <unk> here and [noise] but yeah in general i'm gonna say yeah look <unk> look through with <unk> uh not just on that paid but on like the <unk> william has look at the pages or if if you are having trouble with any particular concept look up the pages for that particular concept you know <unk> <unk> whatever because they'll have more <unk> uh explanations another thing is you maybe you could look on you to bomb cetera but it was about the international phonetic alphabet which is what i <unk> in case you didn't know um and i'm sure that it you know <unk> there are more than <unk> and you know someone might show the symbol and they'd be like this is [noise] and so the <unk> or this and saw the as [noise] or whatever the case i envy those uh i might uh see if i can look for those <unk> you know on you to uh you might be able to find somebody who has even like the the <unk> view of the head and everything so that you can tell exactly uh what uh what <unk> position each symbols opposed to represent and i've heard of 'em i've uh i've been on a site before i forget which one it was now but um [noise] or i think it was a speech pathology class but anyways it was a website where it explain to you how <unk> like say the incidental <unk> and it said place it time between your teeth and exhale producing a sound between the <unk> and i sit there gone [noise] [noise] oh that's th but you <unk> when you hear the sound you <unk> you know hopefully um you'll be able to hear that you've heard it before or maybe i'll hear somebody you've never heard before and want to incorporate it and um use it an an novel and knew what i think for this guy he just i don't know how much else he knows about linguistics but he just needs to familiarized themselves with these symbols so that he can use them in transcription to show other people what his language is going right right and they only point i mean there's no there's no special virtue about i p._a. [noise] except that it lets you communicate with people who might want to look at your language exactly or as exactly as you can expect um in in in in human [noise] mouse capabilities [noise] <unk> let them let everyone know exactly what it is your son language was <unk> yeah ultimately there's not the only reason that you wanna learn ita is that it is the sort of accepted standard for transcribing uh and there's other standards like <unk> but this is the most <unk> or transcribing the sounds of your language yeah i was about to ask about the have you guys um you that simple before [noise] these days it's so easy to get access to unit code funds to do i pay that <unk> there's probably not too much reason to use <unk> any more i use the example for the first few years that i was calm lying i'm involved in the forums but yeah like well you might say i don't use it that much and i have trouble reading accent by any more really yeah so <unk> is just a way too so right you you've got this <unk> full of all of these ridiculous symbols [noise] how on earth do you type them an email when you only have seven bit <unk> oh so x. x. sample is just a way to in code the full i._p. h._r. just using characters available on your boring american keyboard by the way i'm going to put another like in the show notes specifically to help people type things the uh the i._p. a keyboard such a great tool yeah <unk> yeah [noise] anyways google i p._a. keyboard you'll find that but that's it basically you just click the the things that you want and it goes into a text box and you can copy pets mm okay so there's even solutions to help you typed them if you don't want to bother changing your keyboard so basically what we're saying is um hi p._a. is just the standard that language they use and that a lot of common language or using and it will help you uh to tell other people how the phonology of your language works there's just stuff that you have to memorize but yeah the chart is laid out in such a way to help you figure out what position the the various articulate hers in your mouth have to be what position in the <unk> thing has to be and what the manager of arctic you the the the manner of articulation is whether it's uh uh stop but huh or a <unk> shop or approximate ah and um i <unk> i wanted to check there are some uh different times i use the same thing like stop versus um you know close so yeah [noise] um lots of different like lives versus somebody dolls i think some call it i think if he explorers <unk> p._t._a. enough he will start to learn those yeah long story short it they'd be not afraid you know god so you <unk> yeah [laughter] no problem everybody and ends up when they're starting having to learn all these new terms and half to memorize the i. p. a. and all this stuff it's just sort of dumb dumb busy work that you have to do in order to get into this hobby because [noise] it's hardly unique to this hobby if you pick a model trains you take a bone side and you take up [noise] or kid growing all of them have a vast the cab you larry that you have to figure yeah yeah any any of them you have to <unk> learn to <unk> this <unk> these are also uh scientific linguistic terms [noise] um i think we can wrap this up we we've we've probably given this guy enough help [laughter] more than an <unk> yeah yeah well his name is matt i'm in oklahoma from oklahoma oh matt from oklahoma yes [noise] uh i i hope that you continue <unk> <unk> <unk> and i hope we we helped you make sense of the <unk> you you put it um well just start making sense yeah well <unk> yeah um um i might send an email to it'd be constructed construction since their their new be focused maybe they can they can put up yeah <unk> uh yeah but uh i'm going to say aged review poor beauty here william do you have any final words of wisdom [laughter] no i just got uh dan <unk> new book language a cognitive too so maybe when i've finished with that i'll have some wisdom from there oh nice okay and um my [noise] well i say um [noise] as far as for the beginning you know the people who are just starting with this wonderful wonderful hobby um you know don't be afraid to try things and even you don't know what they're called or if you're just starting to feel a little overwhelmed there'll be afraid of the all the third from somewhere and ah you know he tried something that's really crazy don't blow it could be you know someone looks at that and say oh wow that's really neat i never thought of that uh-huh so um with with anything with a [noise] puns caissons with uh morphology with fanatics list <unk> whatever you can think of um [noise] some you know i'd just say go nuts and feel free to explore and roam free enjoy okay and i'm going to say happy hon you haven't been listening to con lying or you can find the <unk> all previous offices at <unk> dot com including links to our <unk> online and a few resources you make sense of today's topic [noise] you're also find links to subscribe to us on high tuned or through on upon to our quarter face book and plus they design a whole lot more questions commonsense ingestion may be sent to <unk> dot com you can also submit those translated greetings we played the popular show or consequence to display in our head er police evening contribute paid for details [noise] thanks for listening [noise] i used to do script [noise] but i didn't realize later that i was not very good at it you mention it like a drug uh yeah i used to do script [laughter]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. adpositions
  4. conlang
  5. Junen Rhá
  6. language
  7. linguistics
  8. postpositions
  9. prepositions

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 43 Adpositions (last edited 2017-09-07 07:23:23 by TranscriBot)