Conlangery #44: Negation

Conlangery #44: Negation

Published: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 04:00:15 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 [noise] [noise] mm mm mm mm mm [noise] want them to call <unk> language is people who create them mine gordon really ah with me in the great state of wisconsin is william and it's nothing new jersey we mike lend team how you doing i'm doing good [noise] um where we get in the shows a couple of things i wanted to sort of an now um one was i was actually on another potash mine is um is it is kind of a big one i think uh i was on for cash that oh you are cast number one thirteen <unk> suitcase everyone anybody wants to check it it's basically there's two host and they invite to gas to predict the future and i made a production about the future of english you some some people in here might listen in say oh you're totally wrong but i don't know yeah i don't make predictions or i try not to [noise] [laughter] well it's just for fun anyway [noise] um and then i want to specifically mentioned this because this is coming up i think the week after this episode post [noise] let me find think yes on april hey at two p._m. eastern time c._n._n. is going to run a special on both rocky there'll probably be um reruns of it but um i talk to uh i i um heard from <unk> peterson who they <unk> they won't put it on line they'll just put clips on line so you might want to try to catch it at the time it's broadcast and so old fashioned way even has a t._v. anymore [laughter] obviously [noise] that's true [laughter] well a lot of people still get cable so yeah [noise] [noise] there's cable in this house but anyway i just thought i would mention that because david is our good friend or [noise] she's a friend of the show <unk> yeah and and uh we definitely we definitely want to learn more about this rocky although it's probably going to be very general audience if you if you watch the preview it's um the girl who plays the nearest just kind of <unk> nothing's about the threat [noise] so [laughter] uh but [noise] so what's that out of the way since where um a good three or so minutes on the show why don't we actually go right into our featured uh or no future <unk> our discussion topic for today no which is <unk> [noise] yes [laughter] you threw me off because you know [laughter] so [laughter] yes so mediation what is negotiation um well it's basically saying something is not true or or <unk> say that something is not true but uh well why don't you start this off you have the first big chunk of notes here so [noise] yeah um it's always we start off topic with me thinking oh it will be a nice short one now [laughter] [noise] so the the scene where i typically have the most problems with medication has to do with [noise] <unk> [noise] [noise] uh-huh if i say the sentence [noise] i didn't sleep with the senator i could be asking to different questions either did you sleep with the senator or who did you sleep with uh-huh no that's true it's up to me to say i did not sleep with the senator as an answer who did you sleep with [noise] um but just lets me this is just my favorite example to pick on senators for all my i have nothing but the highest respect [noise] um [noise] what does the negotiation go with and linguists talking about <unk> what part of the sentence falls under that [noise] and in english it can be a little ambiguous i didn't cut the bread with a <unk> i didn't [laughter] yeah i cut the bread not what the heck so but uh butter so the point is where does that not go and an english because of how our symptoms are constructed we tend to have one negative in the center and you have to figure out from other clues um where exactly the scope it [noise] [noise] yeah i like um go ahead yeah well and what you're talking about is mainly a sin tactic ambiguity you should be able to figure it out pragmatically what what somebody means by the overall <unk> yeah you should but there are plenty of languages to give you more flexibility i can't in modern english <unk> none of the mainstream dialect say i cut the bread <unk> with a <unk> period [noise] um can say i got the i cut the britain that with a <unk> but a butter knife mhm that works [noise] mm or your scope is clear but that's only because you've got to extra phrase not or you <unk> dot dot dot but where you say it wasn't the bread that i caught but rather the carrots not a <unk> right exactly it becomes then a question of collecting yeah yeah the other way or it's uh but um [noise] where are you could say i cut the bread with a <unk> that's <unk> yeah that's a very mark but it's possible [noise] mark [noise] um and then for english i didn't <unk> uh butter butter knife is another example of the ambiguity in english modern english knocked goes up to the front without <unk> complex intends to stay there and you have to figure out the scope with other things [noise] like don't avoid like tone of voice i and i bring this up specifically because there are languages which will have special negative scope markers or effectively negative focus markers mhm that that you either you can move the word for not around with more flexibility uh-huh and control disco up that way [noise] or if you need to you might have a special negative particle of some sort either suffix or separate murder or whatever [noise] um [noise] so that that <unk> i mean it's relevant to think about and i i think i'm safe it so a few weeks ago i said you could use google the phrase you'd find lots of papers and it turns out that the google phrase i gave was wrong [laughter] [noise] but if i think i think if you say [noise] scope of vacation as a google search it will give you lots of linguistics papers and a few philosophy papers because it's an interesting topic that people worry about a lot [noise] um yeah and from what it sounds like this could be a a whole discussion topic on it so yeah samantha citizens can can write dissertation done this which where we don't need to get into so let's let's kind of move along and keep talking about uh different other concerns you'd have to deal with with medication um so i don't know william do you want to keep talking to <unk> go through all of us or do we wanna <unk> hit the big point [noise] so the next question is how many times <unk> do you have in english we just have not [noise] which tends to get climb down to helping germs and things i don't and didn't but for the most part we just have one negative [noise] [noise] [noise] mhm this is by no means the only way to do it aging rican sanskrit have two different and the gators one is used for <unk> one is used for non <unk> non finite foreign [noise] mhm mhm [noise] um you might have a special way of marking prohibition [noise] oh okay so there was much fun early in the history of not be because there are two <unk> two forms of vacation there's the normal [noise] nah which is used everywhere except imperative and then we have a cellphone separate negative for um imperative except that was gloss as don't currently is worthless everyone sort of it was it was that uh happy mix of all sorts of inappropriate nation so those two words uh related at all no standard not is um <unk> and the imperative or the prohibition one is that er chinese has the same thing although they overlap a little but you can still use blue her imperative but i think it's more common to use yeah [noise] sure so you could have something like that but have them overlap just a little bit um and chinese is also has you know may [noise] this is sort of <unk> in different kinds of vacation in different circumstances of tense aspect mood so on and so forth are actually surprisingly common mhm mm they're our entire walls chapters about this very issue if you wish to invest yeah and we will linked to this wolf shepherd that you gave us um what is it chapter uh one fourteen yeah which talks about all different types of <unk> big asian so you know people can look about and from the article i'm from the walls chapter i read it appears that language can also can have multiple types of this <unk> so it's not even so much that you have a certain type of a cemetery it can be you can mixing <unk> absolutely absolutely um and then i just wanted to mention it because it was fun um <unk> like i said have share coordinate double medication well we'll just ignore one one of the continent but how to navigate participle um is mick [noise] invaded sanskrit produced a new adjective that prefix that's <unk> with the a. n. apathetic and atheist mhm and the further <unk> english um okay so i talked a little bit about how different mood might um take different gators and then be going the other way there are a few languages that require you to use the special either negative mood that's marked on the verb or they might use <unk> for most negative statements are all negative statements okay mhm [noise] right 'cause in some sense thank somebody didn't happen is a little bit uh there's a little bit of unreality about that so that seems to be what motivates the shift that into an eerie alice mm [noise] yeah and then this to happen in languages where [noise] you use funky moods for uh questions as well it seems to me that those tend to go together [noise] uh i don't know if this is related but i know in russia when you're talking about non existence in rather than saying using the nominate views agenda for him i don't know if not existence falls in that area i was kind of <unk> but uh [noise] <unk> yeah or or some part of new thing going on there [noise] name yeah it seems like maybe there was another another taste but <unk> with the janitor because it seems weird to have the janitor picked that er i [noise] i don't know maybe just because because i have an idea of what <unk> mean <unk> as the lack of cases [laughter] that's true [noise] it was just curious to me that that for some reason they wouldn't make negative jared <unk> okay when who understand better theoretically can explain it to us an email [noise] yes [laughter] yeah but um i was surprised fine that using and agility verbal <unk> mhm he's pretty darn rare [noise] in the wall data set forty seven of one thousand one hundred and fifteen and languages at four percent [noise] well now i hear the question is that like for <unk> like not talking language families are talking about each individual number about <unk> vigil member that [noise] makes your walls they don't um [noise] separate by language family ah okay [noise] mhm oh right so finished not with standing this pretty rare future [noise] um the next thing i just wanted to bring it was i'm calling it <unk> [noise] you're using it too much [noise] uh but i say that but it seems to be a standard future nuts of language it's like for example spanish i didn't see <unk> [noise] so i yeah in ethnic action however [noise] um uh doing research for the show <unk> lots of people called it negative agreement okay yeah i've i've heard negative agreement negative concorde mhm basic i liked that term basically because the idea that i think is going on is that certain parts of the sentence agree with the verb in terms of <unk> [laughter] but that it it might be a little bit of a stretch because even even in cases like spanish where it's obligatory in several parts of the <unk> there are other parts where it's not obligatory um it's <unk> where it's like optional whereas um that's the most interesting to me um i don't know um actually it was a bad example 'cause like you know go <unk> it might be some that do the <unk> because um if you're talking about like er if it's like i didn't see anybody or i didn't see nobody and you know <unk> but if you say nobody saw the book you wouldn't say nobody didn't see the book i don't think <unk> so is that is that the p. or the <unk> who you're going by you know <unk> gene combining theory [noise] um [laughter] yeah yeah no you're that's that's true my um generally if there's the um if [noise] the subject is negative and the <unk> would not be then it's just the subject of will be negative but when the <unk> that this uh this is an important thing to consider for your language is what part [noise] um the sentence <unk> negated in uh i am magazines concord situation because in spanish i think ten minutes is that if the <unk> negated than other parts usually the object and any um like a place and so forth yeah add verbs and um and what i'm going to <unk> uh indefinite pronouns too [laughter] like anybody i'll <unk> becomes <unk> now do you usually um [noise] and then there's also even more things like if you have the um uh <unk> meaning never you negate the whole sentence and it's sort of more like uh there's uh hey hey hey hey line in a <unk> pen labyrinth where the <unk> the <unk> <unk> <unk> ah <unk> ah <unk> how <unk> actually should be by by just but anyway you get the point you're not gonna <unk> okay i can <unk> translate for me yeah um you will never see us again but it's um it's more like you will not see us again ever [noise] okay i wonder if that first emphasis though like come on come out like never again yeah yeah it is it's sort of it's sort of a more forceful negative that way mhm [noise] but anyway yeah i'm just just to the point what i was gonna say this is a common feature in all over the planet to have this sort of um we'll call it negative court so you're <unk> not a nice where [noise] um [laughter] uh and it had various kinds of rules so <unk> any role and it showed this [noise] but weird things happen if your normal boring simple <unk> negative particle comes first or if it comes after the um other negative works uh adds a little bit <unk> [laughter] spanish italian do this [noise] uh no spanish [noise] be the language most easily um well rush into yeah mhm so spanish in russia are the two big languages were i think it will be easy for people who are interested in this to find papers and example yeah although i think spanish the thing is that works very much the same as it works in english [noise] in uh non standard usage in english so it might be better to try to find something a little bit more [noise] more exotic if you want to play around with different things but um yeah yeah i mean english is weird because english absolutely it was one hundred percent happy to cram as many negatives into sentences <unk> comfortable with it is only proceed victorian school arms who decided english need to be more like latin [noise] that yes people decided we couldn't use so called double negatives anymore yeah and or it was also sort of a mathematical logic <unk> applied language which is kind of bizarre when you think about it please <unk> which [laughter] yeah yeah i wonder if there's any other languages that have uh they have that same sort of script prescription this tradition trying to erase they're double negatives i don't think there is yeah that would be interesting yeah i mean there's all sorts of perceived as in present itself and all sorts of funky ways but i don't know about on this specific issue yeah well anyway um we have <unk> um the only thing i would want them mention myself anymore on this topic is i actually played with negative concord a little bit in iowa rio and if i remember correctly i made it so that i i don't know of any natural language does anything like this but if i remember correctly i made it so that the prohibitive <unk> takes a negative verb [noise] just to be mhm extra funny and had a gym communication on your <unk> um that's uh something that's that um i think is in your notes mike i actually have the the negative marked on the <unk> a negative conjugation okay <unk> i wasn't sure if maybe you had a <unk> completely different let's go for um for the negative foreign kind of like russian as aspects <unk> sometimes it's on unrelated um for to be there's a different lexical form but most most of the time it's just they take different uh uh mood slashed <unk> oh okay um and uh that can sort of um segue us into that topic right um do you have another part of <unk> or do you market directly on the verb or directly on something else is like a clinic or something [noise] there's uh i think we have this <unk> there's you know the language that have languages that have particles on both sides of the we're like a french made pot right discontinue is nick <unk> just continuous <unk> um [noise] that is quite an unusual future um not oh has it except that what can go in the nation is much more flexible that wants to go in the <unk> in french [noise] sat on let me know knock on wood stove um which sometimes joints together just to be the word for no apparently colloquial well in fact we had [noise] um it's a pretty stable feature the article i read suggested english thought about it for a while or old english [laughter] before finally decided no [laughter] okay [laughter] where you had some <unk> before the verb and then later at night they gave up on the the thing for a while i just love it you put an english thought about it for a while is if there was some countries decision [noise] yeah yeah well whatever [noise] okay um so that's another thing and again there's they're real languages that will does market directly on the <unk> japanese does this and that that has negative connotations of words right mhm um friends that really work anything different from when you have a particle really or is it just kind of the same as but then you had that went in that situation then you have a real <unk> question yeah that's true because does it mean gate just <unk> i would <unk> well i mean i would assume that in normally use it negates the entire assertion [noise] but if you one that wants to <unk> stick your items to focus on then you're you're going to have to have some technique to do that i'm sure japanese tons i don't know what did he probably you probably use focus <unk> topic or something like that yeah i'm i'm sure that japanese had some <unk> or perhaps that's that's where you get into cutting the bread was a <unk> or something [laughter] yeah [laughter] well that that's that's one way to get around that is if you want to specifically may gate one part of the the sentence but <unk> has a negative for him and he said just attached something negative to the park right right sort of negative focus or back to that again [noise] [noise] yeah that's true [laughter] right now with some quick question to discontinue association [noise] not only talking about like say uh if it were kind of like a certain fix like you say your friends there is something that goes to the front and something that most of the back ordered also be if there was like a cover for rental kind of thing [noise] like say there was one word that goes on the no the board for now and then there's another ethics are word that goes with the thing that's been heated would that be discontinued the gays and ah you know what i'm saying i i think i do in which case you present <unk> awfully strange idea [noise] uh i liked it that's interesting <unk> it would only me this continuous education if you conceived of that [noise] the second instance of that in agreement as intrinsically negative okay <unk> <unk> <unk> are clearly the gators and nothing else [noise] regardless of their etymology navajos <unk> <unk> <unk> um and that brings up another thing mike you actually put in your notes [noise] yeah but whether or not they're dedicated words yes and no more whether you um are actually <unk> uh you express an affirmative or negative answer i presume by repeating the <unk> which is what happens in chinese very often <unk> [noise] um and uh i think that's something you might want to consider while you're doing the <unk> but um we we were talking before the show and we decided we we save all the very uh <unk> are talking about that for next episode where we are going to be talking about question because since those our answers to questions were going to do we can talk a little bit more about those there sure yeah how'd you answer yeah iran time [laughter] yeah what what's what's natural to native speaker english as i'm sure we've all their and two are sadness in learning foreign languages [noise] he's not the same at different languages [laughter] yeah it can be it can be very different but uh that's that's sort of more related to questions so we'll say uh the very complicated argument about that for that upset [noise] yeah i'm the only the only reason i put it that would be if you were to go with the <unk> the circumstance where you had to negate your answer if you said like did you did you go to the store you can just say no and you had say no i didn't go that didn't go part is relevant to the uh topic of <unk> yeah that's true yeah and whether you would use any different way of negating it like you know maybe maybe if you could whether you could just say that we're or you had the same more of the sentence or something like that [noise] that makes sense um [noise] it might be more of a usage question the mechanics uh in the sense of it doesn't really <unk> it doesn't really talk about how you form the negatives as much as where you use your negative in the answer or in austin yeah decoration or whatever yeah even mentioned in my notes whether the answer to a negative <unk> uh question uh would have some some weird pragmatic issues but that again more to the question so why don't we talk a little bit uh where where we hear the [noise] um how to deny in negative [noise] that's the thing is just about anything i think i would say similar look [noise] <unk> yeah what's it look <unk> william what's this <unk> this is a special type of the scope question so let me give you three <unk> [noise] i promise i will come i don't [noise] i will come and i promised that will not and then i don't <unk> i won't come [laughter] [laughter] that's very march way of saying i <unk> i'm i i probably will come right <unk> and it's extremely complicated waiting [laughter] yeah [laughter] [noise] the point is it's not quite <unk> but when you say i don't <unk> and i promised i will not these mean quite different things very very different thing [noise] [noise] yeah that's true the reason i bring it up is because funny things can happen at that boundary like sickly <unk> type mentioned before has multiple verbs of speaking [noise] wonder if that but not the others [noise] when you negate effectively um of the i will promise i promise i will not come variety effectively means deny okay uh-huh [noise] i don't say i would come means i say i'm a laptop i denied it i've <unk> okay all right [noise] so again i'm pretty sure <unk> <unk> we'll give you lots of things about that i <unk> i bring it up because i say that i will go i don't say i will go [noise] knees have interesting implications [noise] um in particular um if you <unk> funny things can happen for example in french [noise] with the verb to believe [laughter] mhm did you say i believe something you use the indicative you say i don't believe something it use the subject [noise] <unk> [noise] and then for men i think he when you're saying about um when you hope something happens or you help <unk> out or no no no it's the same <unk> with uh with with um affirmative as negative but the <unk> [noise] yeah it's just [noise] subjective just goes with um compliment clauses of any verb that relates to mental processes want thing whatever yeah but then again then there's <unk> negative command that's where it gets into using sub jumped at for negative informal commands and <unk> affirmative formal are informant man like <unk> after your homework and <unk> not that you know not not that i don't don't do it you'd miss of jumped him with the neck in command [noise] <unk> they don't use it an an a gated imperative for that [noise] um not really like it was there are um for suburbs there's a certain form worthy informal ah second person singular um command but if you're using the negative yeah jumped at [noise] the uh the the imperative and some jumped in our <unk> little bit mixed up in spanish i think the imperative may have been derived from some drug different one point and so it it gets a little difficult to it gets a little bit hard to tease out some time right so again i'm gonna bring it my favorite example ancient greek <unk> negative protective uses the imperative mhm negative perfect [noise] used as a second person subject now um i'm not sure about all her listeners <unk> those are can you give an example uh instead of saying negative imperative negative and proactive been cetera [noise] it's hard because english doesn't stink wish aspect in imperative ah okay so who you know don't be doing that [laughter] yeah don't be doing that would be you know in perspective prohibition um would you use a normal imperative form but don't do that okay which will take as productive you know simple statement mm would you use the eerie alice negates or followed by second person perfect <unk> which is not <unk> [noise] so [noise] that's my point to bring this up again is again there's something weird sometimes about commands yeah negative commands or off in different from other kinds of negates mhm and it was just surprising to me that spanish also resorts to [noise] a subjective i wonder if i'm guessing romance i have a vague memory that other romance languages my do this as well [noise] mhm [noise] i wouldn't be surprised i mean you know it'd be interesting but it wouldn't if one does it affect you didn't maybe some of the other <unk> languages [noise] yeah um i was a really anything more that we can say i i'm sure that there's more about we can say about some of these specific topics that we just don't have time to deal with like all the [noise] the all the different things and the only wants to go up and all the different things dealing with elocution married but those are are there any more high points that we really want to hit um i can't think of anything offhand mike you have ever done she already in your notes but we did it a whole episode on evidence reality i don't know if it interacts with medication so much does it uh i'm not sure i just remembered that when i was thinking about doing this my calm i was thinking about having different i guess degrees <unk> based on how um how evident is like if you saw it first hand maybe there is the highest level of asian whereas if you heard someone telling someone else it was on through maybe there's a lower level <unk> okay i think [noise] i think in the walls chapter mentions may be evident geology interacting with <unk> might that might happen old um i'm trying to find where where i think i saw that i may be making things up [laughter] you'd never uh [laughter] but i mean it it uh it wouldn't be it wouldn't surprise me if evidence reality or maybe even a negative marker took the same slot as an epidural marker mm that would be uh interesting [noise] so but there there is an entire sub chapter in <unk> famous book on evidence geology about again the question of scope indication you have a direct evident chilling you say i didn't see him mhm oh well they say that the uh um [noise] or you are saying he <unk> um i i <unk> that you cut off there yeah you know that because my brain cut off um [laughter] [noise] but you you might say like the the senator might be sleeping with his aid indirect right right or the senator is not sleeping with is a indirect does or does that mean that i actually do that or my recording that i that that's the evidence i got [noise] correct yeah have a language that has flexible negated <unk> around then there are languages that allow you to negates the evidence <unk> oh so you could say i did not see i'm like yeah you could <unk> say basically like the center is sleeping with his his hey not direct and that could mean that i don't know whether he's sleeping with is a through my own experience right but i can't say anything else right there there's different possibilities different languages definitely take these differently um mhm so for example in some languages and you know a indirect evidence <unk> in a negative sentence urine the scope only applies to the action and not to the <unk> yeah but there are other languages where can apply to the evidence trouble as well so again a decision for language inventors to just make it go with security knowledge that the human breaking process because naturally just [noise] it's one of those things where you have have you have um [noise] if you have <unk> then you have to make the decision which way it's going to go yeah right um i was gonna say i just i might click checking something here [noise] there are there's one language that has four evident shoals and <unk> they're all obliterated in a negative statements huh oh interesting so that they just disappear right <unk> um in its own thing and in in in that sort of makes sense because there is something slightly speak <unk> just like there is about <unk> [laughter] yeah [laughter] i took okay [noise] well i think that covers everything that we had in our notes here that anybody think of anything extra to say about big asian or any extra questions [noise] um not that won't take us a long time to get three [laughter] [noise] yeah i think we can <unk> i was just gonna say that you know it's just something that i think you can do a lot of possibilities out there and just a lot of things that people can practice in china things yeah yeah and we have a few links here and also will say you can do some of your own research [noise] news or google searches that will you mentioned and and just you know well you're thinking about the negotiation in your car on line just think about you know there's a whole lot of different decisions you have to make it not just the simple do i put a particle or <unk> or or or a dummy auxiliary which mhm strikes me is really weird by the way it does that happen in other languages [noise] much in other languages other than english or is it kind of a rare thing seems really weird to me it seems to be rich meet you [noise] my impression and this could be it falls memory is that it's pretty darn strange and unusual now so does uh do you do i live you know german does not because i mean english i don't know if he wants to come up with that just on the phone no no not german is just a boring we have <unk> and i'd go and that's not i have never heard of uh a germanic language doing then of course i don't know much about dramatic languages so somebody might correct this <unk> with something from some some language we haven't heard of but as far as i know it's an innovation that occurred in english [noise] um so it is does this seem really weird so you might want to stay away from them don't unless you really liked that feature anyone included <unk> like <unk> like we say english has some weird mrs [noise] and you might like those weird misses there's nothing wrong with including an english major in your car like as long as you know that's what you're doing yeah um but i kind of hanging with malicious intent [laughter] well for a thrill language like you want someone to have a real you know real tough times on decipher you can <unk> with all sorts of falls in back term like yeah yeah sure yeah it's just it's just you know i i i'm just saying that because a lot of people just say oh a void anything that smacks of english and i say no no no you just have to know where your stuff is coming from i know why you're doing all all these things [noise] the the problem that occurs when people end up doing <unk> is when they're not mine <unk> ah the influence that their own native language or um english because some some people just put it some of my second language speakers even put english teachers in for no reason you you don't know that you're doing that so that's that's the reason i say it that way anyway i think that's about all we have to say about <unk> unless we want to do an entirely new episode on one of these other tiny topics because there is a whole lot to to deal with so if we're still doing that see year we might need to move on to that [laughter] yeah any any any objections to uh to us uh moving on to our future con lying then for me no huh uh right then we are going to talk about britain nick no within let the weight britain hay <unk> whatever the [laughter] <unk> ah i'm sorry i i i i'm i am tend to be a little bit more <unk> however you want to anglo size that name um [noise] so this is probably the sort of for example um what william cold the pogo line what i like to call and outlying or something [noise] uh the basic premise is that the williams they the the romans stayed in britain right mhm and they specifically this is the the language the romance language that develops in uh whales according to that scenario so it's sort of it's sort of mostly latin words run through welfare sound changes right welsh historical <unk> changes [noise] mhm [noise] yeah this really is the the the originator of that practice i'm pretty sure um mhm people like the guy who invented benedict in fact he's currently hosting the present <unk> grammar because the original website disappeared uh-huh [noise] um and most people who make these you know make their allegiances too but then again as the parents so [noise] nothing to definitely be true and it's still language is language still undergoing a <unk> update thoughts on that site was from uh august eighteen two thousand nine so i don't know if that's still being updated or if it was just that was the last one i saw i don't think there's much more going on to it i was able to contact the ah the creator <unk> good yeah um and he replied back to me but um he's in new zealand so that the time for him it was not he was not able to come on that part gas but uh anyway um i see i don't know much about latin really uh-huh mhm and i don't know much about well i can't really uh [laughter] [noise] well i mean i see hog mates obviously <unk> as you should you should um i do know about it as like we're just anti [noise] um and i'm going to use to go with george and use the english pronunciation <unk> present it just looks to me like a romance language with extremely strange um yeah it it is a really weird least bill <unk> well it he uses basically well smelling it looks like and uh hands um it has the mutations that are interesting yeah that's right and that's fine the yeah and as far as the um [noise] yeah that's that's true they use the he uses a lot of <unk> um i'm just gonna say i am much more forgiving um using in this case this sort of wealth spelling rules i don't know if it would have necessarily develop naturally but when it's fine when <unk> to have some weird spelling when the native when understandably the native ah script um the language would be the room and out but which would be the case for uh <unk> britannica [laughter] ah because specifically it's it's you know ah they ah ah descendants <unk> and it's in a in a region that in our world everybody uses a room now but in so [noise] it makes perfect sense and i think it's totally conceivable if if there were people there who are educated or used to using their their own their own languages spelling or uh conventions and if they have people coming in <unk> teaching this other language perhaps if they learn if they apply their own spelling before they learn um quote unquote correct one maybe that's where it <unk> i don't know i don't know when the romans came to britain were any of the celtic languages written no mm okay that would that that seems like less of a although it's it it's sort of well [noise] the wealth rating system is an attempt to make the make <unk> now but <unk> <unk> and this <unk> britannica is pretty close to two well show so it makes it makes sense that they may have come sort of to a similar point but anyway let's let's not talk all day about the <unk> let's let's say it costs more about language itself but i wanted to say something about the <unk> yeah [laughter] <unk> first of all first of all the mutations [noise] mhm oh extremely restrained compared to real well [noise] mhm [noise] they're they're they follow a characteristic pattern they are much simpler than real wealthy [noise] or a language inspired by that seem to ring mhm and didn't read takes us to the other point is i think people use well spelling because there is an affection and romance for that takes two token [noise] you want your <unk> ferry nights and ladies and all of that than you spell where do you spell the <unk> i eat okay [noise] um and then you know to keep this visual impression of this it's like it's like oh frankly it's like having a night or working in the first place it's [noise] it's a little sign of the john run that you're dealing with [noise] [noise] well it's fine it's not it's not the same philosophy that i follow what i'm doing it but you know it's if that's what you want to do with it then that's what you want to do it one thing that i kept having to think to consciously not doin' and rather than he was uh unless i think what looks like a letter you to us is pronounced like in like the sound <unk> right <unk> yeah except this language avoid that bad yeah that's what i was kind of looking at him and i was like oh that's weird and then double your idea about them and the white you know [noise] <unk> you used w._n._y._c. <unk> yeah but then but not in the full complexity that west yeah thanks yeah [laughter] i really there's welfare have more well well [noise] um [noise] i don't know if i should teases us but we will be talking about well for the future so right now [noise] um [noise] and it's just you know whatever the development of historical stuff anyway let's talk about interesting things about the language [noise] yeah yeah um some of it i i mean i don't know wells practically it also <unk> <unk> you might be able to answer [noise] um but uh i notice that they had um well actually maybe <unk> maybe we'll talk about somebody go into it um george or whereabouts are you guys gonna lead us through er yeah [noise] <unk> <unk> <unk> let's just kind of make observations just go ahead and say well you were going to say i'm all right well uh they <unk> they <unk> they <unk> they had genders in there i don't know if well has genders does it like i like latin uh not like latin but uh you didn't wind don't remember [laughter] [noise] you got like uh i think i think it [noise] and ah but the gender <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah and a woman i was before we totally events are away from the uh changes from latin to the wealth <unk> did you guys notice any like um [noise] like any traceable this turned into this 'cause it seemed like <unk> especially the double l. i don't think there's anything similar that latin so like for the uh for the articles for example i think that <unk> and then <unk> or something like that i don't know if it was maybe an initial or final l. that changed over or did you could you um well let's where is the <unk> right i remember seeing that that that might have been on the <unk> what you say when we <unk> we eat [noise] but the grand master plan is the name for you or giant page of sounds changes mm do you explain the change from in this case latin too <unk> [noise] um okay and we please remembered that even though i did have anything like a slow mhm um neither did pro celtic it's a special thing they're <unk> on it [noise] um [noise] how well [noise] yeah well ah so several singing involved to develop so the noise we're making it <unk> which is the lateral um <unk> it's used in welsh and then you don't see it anywhere else in europe and i know it mostly from um the languages of native america like i my feeling on <unk> on you [laughter] is that we use is an african [laughter] yeah [laughter] this is just plain [noise] ah like <unk> [noise] yeah um i [laughter] there are various circumstances which caused the change from el <unk> resulted in this so weren't initial now okay turned into <unk> mhm the combination <unk> immediately became shop [noise] [noise] oh dressing and that just plain old ordinary double l. became a <unk> okay yeah um also i um and it as did the combination s. l. which makes no sense to me [noise] i think lately <unk> in or um in our thing and ah it actually has a comparative chart with other romance languages so that can help a little bit and well on the side as well [noise] i was gonna say mhm oh go ahead oh i was gonna say that the out see i can see maybe if there was is it flipped at one point instead of being healthy <unk> and then maybe slowly that that um making more and more like sex sex then [noise] now at the end but like like really <unk> yeah i mean [noise] [noise] <unk> um iceland [noise] the modern version of my son has um these lateral africa that developed out of double l. [noise] so they're horrible okay no um was a uh <unk> <unk> [noise] [noise] yeah [noise] there to play that understandable el <unk> announcer could pronounce that so they just said icelandic <unk> okay now [laughter] i had friends who call it um <unk> osborne because it sounded like ozzie osborne talking [laughter] yeah it's less um i'm pronouncing [noise] my my point it could have gone from two to us mhm yeah i don't know there's <unk> um yeah although yeah sound changes can sometimes take surprisingly so <unk> it wouldn't it wouldn't really surprised me for <unk> uh uh just to go straight to uh uh for no apparent reason um it's similar enough i think yeah uh and maybe it's sort of the ill ah losing <unk> see because the t._v. or something yeah yeah i mean that's that's why it makes sense anyway we shouldn't obsessed everyone <unk> [noise] but yeah [noise] ways to introduce does sound that has nothing like [laughter] yeah [laughter] yeah [noise] well and he he just was trying to make latin go along the same roof that will cook at least within during that period of time so [noise] oh that's another thing this is hysterical what so i'm looking at the page unquestioned mhm um and one of the example sentences is how green what is your valley [laughter] oh [laughter] so <unk> <unk> [noise] why this is hysterical to me is because [noise] the word whom meaning valley is used an english and um scrabble that love it because it's spelled c. w. m uh oh yeah [noise] <unk> what i thought i thought w. was like a sound no it isn't okay [noise] uh in any case um gee imported into percentage [noise] 'cause it is not drive or to the best of my <unk> [noise] well let's let's realistic it will it will have gotten some of the native ah <unk> <unk> you mentioned that they mentioned that <unk> [noise] um [noise] here's a question uh for anybody who knows well <unk> um the word already mentioned <unk> he said that it was a first person the second person on third person sentences common and now well wait word order what um i'm sorry i was blessing where my <unk> my notes on here but um <unk> or like when you're talking about like <unk> like paul and i went to the store i think on their um i realize this totally a jump from what we were just talking i apologize um [noise] but uh yeah in well in modern what else did they do that also and say like i am all go somewhere you know i don't that's a pretty uh detailed question that i do not know about well [noise] mm yeah that's uh that's that's also really weird that he was that specific about that because like in english class you learn that you're supposed to put a second and third person rivers before yourself but i don't think there's necessarily i uh i uh i real her medical rule in english [noise] as to uh the order of <unk> that kind of racing is there [noise] yeah i don't know know it seems more of a politeness thing to me so it seems odd that he he they would uh define that so strictly <unk> mm well i don't know if it's only politeness but anyway [noise] my eyes you find it biking verify the word order because most famously [noise] the celtic languages or via so for the most part yeah mhm where's the romance languages definitely are not [noise] mhm [noise] yeah well latin was s._o._b. and gosh comments language <unk> right ah yes latin was more borderline [noise] non configurations book [noise] whatever mhm well that's true but it it it was mostly i've sylvie yeah um [noise] yeah i think it's [noise] it's i think we're sending it has to be oh really [laughter] [noise] well that would that would fit with uh what other romance my wages have developed juice show mhm not too surprising [noise] um so here's our um our topic today in verbs he talks about how you negate of herb [noise] um you apply see this is this is very fun you applied the nasal mutations two verbs beginning with a a <unk> okay <unk> and you have a particle which follows [noise] yeah i saw that uh now i wonder how do you think that's related to like <unk> i mean it could be here yet for nothing yeah i don't know i don't know the history of it 'cause that's definitely not [noise] mhm [noise] that is not simple <unk> yeah well what what did latin have <unk> have you know and it just had known [noise] well i'm in so it's a funny things in imperative and dependent close we will not talk about that [laughter] yeah so if that got um guam onto the verb then obviously but obviously you could just turn into nasal mutate and that's what i assume the allergy that is <unk> known crushed under time [noise] i'm leaving only uh we sponsor her [noise] and then and then they might develop a uh a final particle could make it more salient raining ah seems like the main reasons like devour it a lot of things like the <unk> um the <unk> i think they're also don't sell any more they just sell a teaching in the initial constantly and ah i think there's <unk> <unk> right [noise] is that a teacher well yeah i was gonna say that sounds like a well <unk> kind of think <unk> yeah um yeah [noise] [noise] [noise] ah if they're loved and going on i see mostly [noise] just boring turtles [noise] oh i thought i thought when i was looking at it i saw like um that there there was a <unk> that the that the vowel which shift show that was made to reinforce that it was a <unk> an addition to the the um [noise] initial mediation [noise] 'cause you don't find the page i saw it on [noise] than the numerals are mostly romance but then i'm not sure okay i think this might just be a mutations that goes it goes from hindi too needy unique unique right it's one in two in fifteen mhm okay so that's actually different from what the ah the romance languages too so it kind of <unk> kind of through something else yes the numbers are are marvelous lee funky iraq [laughter] they are like thirty fifty in seventy or or um compound and soup simple things and uh so i wonder if the the things about percentage is it sort of not just inspired a bunch of other languages of disorder but [noise] i assume it is responsible for the entire creation [noise] um [noise] of an entire community of people um who have an entire world <unk> um yeah [noise] i don't know entirely if [noise] you know if he was really involved in that except as an inspiration oh no um <unk> <unk> they're getting the same university earth i mix it [noise] okay so there's so there's a bunch of these extra romance languages in if you <unk> yeah <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah [laughter] no <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> if it's if it's a <unk> where would we eat [noise] <unk> ah yes you're right <unk> anyway um [noise] which <unk> which has tyrone <unk> right um oh well we'll have to i'll have to link to that yeah yeah absolutely um [noise] the the other feature i wanted to just mentioned [noise] uh not well it's sort of future is this language has a tremendously huge dictionary mhm [noise] um [noise] and a lot of tax translated into it so i don't know and [noise] they're one or two comments [noise] <unk> suggested me that dislike bush got used [noise] bites inventor beyond just [noise] here look at my language mhm mhm beyond simply a um exercising fun mhm there are a lot of example <unk> yeah yeah i really am [noise] um let me see there are over a dozen sample tax here and there long tech sue some american ones from other languages too last night he translated some subtitles for movies which i think actually that's a good thing to do if you want to do some this course work 'cause you have to figure out how to how to structure conversation absolutely um i might have chosen to movie other than blade <unk> [laughter] or the fact of months well you're now [laughter] [laughter] yeah you lost a translation is brilliant [noise] mhm mm <unk> say yes indeed no and poems on that so it's it's a substantial language [noise] [noise] <unk> <unk> which is funnier in italian perhaps that isn't [noise] for <unk> i really wish i could find some uh audio samples like 'cause i was hoping that there were some <unk> yeah yeah <unk> uh well i don't know what else do we really want to say about <unk> we've set a whole bunch [noise] already here [laughter] um really we said things it sounds like we're just manners him another <unk> yeah we <unk> are meandering but that's sort of the normal minority for us doing uh uh uh future caught like another thing that the addict of order i thought it was kind of interesting that um when the <unk> follows the now it's literal but when it <unk> it's a figuring of application u._s._c. not really i think it said that yeah um yeah <unk> well for some that do that at me and there was a small number of adjectives allow you to do that that's a that's a weird thing um that the the order of adjective an members have some differences in romance claim it as i know that in spanish it has to do with restricted in us but i've never heard of uh a literal figured if split with that let's see <unk> in my brain [laughter] language of europe [noise] where using a words like enron in this case in this way actually does confer uh figured if sense rather than a literal sense or or uh a different kind of title rather than simply description <unk> for some reason i feel like in spanish when they say like like er <unk> how <unk> how may i ask that i'm not sure if we're almost my former teacher in one of my old teachers something like that um something um there's a little something tickle in my brain to it [noise] i i've actually look this up in spanish it's about restrictive as if uh <unk> the adjective follows the now it's restrictive you are talking about like if you say oh <unk> <unk> you're talking about the red and car as opposed to the blue car or some other car but if you put the ash before it not restrictive it's just you happen to be needing that particular thing like <unk> it's a great car there's lots of great cars it's not it's not the fact that it's great that you're distinguishing it's <unk> it'd be great [noise] my <unk> first strict of news breaks my brain a little bit because i'm not really sure what exactly is but that's the way that i can explain it but in spanish i don't think i mean it sounds really <unk> maybe i'm wrong but it <unk> sounds really odd odd to me to say you know oh god at all that sounds almost like a an english speaker making a mistake and <unk> you know <unk> <unk> yeah i'm not sure [noise] i don't know maybe you well you can do it i don't know but certainly we have the we have gone down a rabbit hole and stopped talking about <unk> [laughter] yes [laughter] so so <unk> saying that she did [noise] um so one of the the features of latin overtime is that the comparative and support lives his forums mhm adjectives could be used simply as intensive [noise] uh-huh with most delightful party right we can do this in english mhm we're not saying it is the most like for a party everywhere everywhere simply saying that it was quite delightful too high degree [noise] just saying is that process became generalized in pretending and at the <unk> east solved which to me is [noise] looks like it's probably the um latin [noise] support all it is you see <unk> um <unk> uh uh ethics on and additives so we have the the the city is very beautiful mall mhm very beautiful is <unk> [noise] <unk> [noise] but at least solve but actually the <unk> the f. on the end of silent falling on the water really looking yeah the <unk> the page [laughter] [noise] so okay three cheers logical spelling [laughter] oh so so you're thinking that this is this the sea size is cognitive with each <unk> yeah where'd you in spanish is is also done the same thing it's just been very right right 'cause if the <unk> and got became like a <unk> like affirmative which is yeah sometimes that we happen [noise] not okay when lost yeah [noise] yeah [noise] so it's it's it's it's interesting but he [noise] so it it's just like to take a little a little synthetic featured the language and decided you know what we're just gonna make this they don't want to say very fattening [noise] mhm [noise] yeah it's just that it seems like this is uh it may not be the normal way to say very but i think this is the is <unk> is an intensive and other <unk> not really necessarily a new idea but it is but it's been a <unk> religion is formed in present it that's true okay right so it's definitely go uh supposedly this any more mhm mhm so it it's um it's interesting i i think he did he obviously went through doing a lot of research in order to put this together [noise] yeah and even though it's not as nicely presented as benedict was it it's clearly the same amount of work on working on the back and to make the language yeah although the grand plan is actually surprisingly [noise] um non terrifying [laughter] yeah i mean i know a little bit about the the uh the um the sort of equation format for um for reading out sound changes but other than that pretty <unk> easy to yeah i liked the grand master plan i <unk> i wonder how the romans said this because he has to work for vodka ooh [laughter] well we could figure it out i think we both <unk> feminine <unk> was that <unk> probably because we got another cat which is another example of why i think um this language got a lot of use beyond what we're seeing just on the website mhm [noise] so anyway [noise] um i think we've talked quite a bit about this and we're <unk> we are starting to go a little long and we uh uh a little ah sauces making here we're actually going to record two episodes <unk> when they want to start wrapping things up is there any other little things that you want to say about resenting before we move on to feedback mm i thought the site was net laid out nicely i mean i played out fine it's it's been kind of uh i'm nineteen ninety five looking site but you know rented some nice when you had [laughter] <unk> when you have a web <unk> and you're paid you know that it's not new [noise] yeah yeah [noise] ah but you know that's fine but this is an old language so or not an old old language but it's uh it's a language from that era so it's going to have a [noise] slightly outdated site probably so it's fine um [noise] that's a <unk> oh yeah i'm gonna say why don't we move why then why don't we just go ahead and move into our feedback here okay all right so we got some feedback on the low low rent episode and this guy actually sent an m._p. three file of him reading the email so i'm gonna let him read his own email so to speak so you guys rarely this normally yes lee high on liners <unk> i like the show uh i'm a loved one is that i thought you're coverage was generally accurate and fair but er i'm surprised you didn't mention large moms take on the subject of your <unk> getting rid of adjectives uh loaded bongos the extra mile and get sort of educators now denver loaded bond and all of the above with a credit words which are all equal bird fly lou are all just predicates uh <unk> that's a bird <unk> thing is lying <unk> thing is blue or is moving so i can say ah <unk> the bird is lying or like all these years you'd need those lying thing as a bird or or even um <unk> any of the blue thing is a bird uh likewise any part of getting to modify any other so i can say <unk> bloomberg is lying or uh <unk> the bird like playing the thing is blue oh of course <unk> business by the grouping modify or so it doesn't have the ah english problem of ambiguity and big <unk> um there's certainly a lot else i can say about my mind but then that would be only but yeah so uh i'll leave it at that ah thanks again for the show okay nice to think we did i think we did talk a bit about [noise] <unk> basically has this sort of alien theory of word classes i think he's talking about and [noise] it just shows mountains verbs additives all into what the <unk> words what are those <unk> or ah yeah that's called them to credit words [laughter] yeah let's call her credit because we're we're likely to get it wrong if we try to find the [noise] the <unk> word but yeah um we were a little i think we were a little confused by the the the use of the native terminology <unk> a lot and we kind of ended up not talking about what <unk> actually does work classes but it is an interesting way of tackling it um it's one of those things and load by and that sort of set it up part i think <unk> i liked it i have the sentence [noise] the bird like flying thing it's blue i like that as an example [noise] now um is this is this is probably type <unk> both <unk> <unk> you sound like you said both feet the whole time might be a type of idea yeah he he might have made a typo in it and the thing but uh it's it's uh it's uh he he was just reading is email to us but uh yeah anyway yeah lee uh that was good and actually you know anybody can i can record something in send it in as an attachment we also have a voice mail line but nobody's ever used it so [noise] uh i i i i can guess that there are reasons why because um you know it's long business for some people it's international for some people just <unk> especially if you would love to give us example sent to senior <unk> oh yeah absolutely if you have something that we're likely the mispronounce [noise] definitely send us m._p. threes or something because having you say it correctly is very valuable to us [noise] yeah [noise] um [noise] please i wonder who told the low spotted [noise] because we did we get the president of the lot logical language group [noise] commented on yeah i think so i'm just happy that we didn't completely say anything i contacted load mine community just in case anybody one it'd be a guest on the show so apparently uh they were watching for the show to drop and they they shared it through their community so [noise] um but it certainly didn't screw anything of horribly so that is reassuring yeah i'm and i'm hearing from a lowes dynasty not very nice to hear someone who actually you know i know when you studied many many languages but uh loews melons a bit of uh awkward than the handle just because of all those native terms we were talking about so i very much appreciate leave bloodiest mission yeah absolutely did bob actually comment i think art art richard hanson which isn't he's another prominent figures there <unk> perhaps i regret this on a little bit of the history what what you know in in typical uh <unk> but you know okay fine insisting on on the on the the <unk> details there'll be correct but [noise] for for the most part everything that i've read except the one comment that that uh came today which was a little ah difficult to read by allowed it anyway that one seemed a little bit more um taking us to the cat passed but i think most for the most part are the reaction from loose man <unk> <unk> was that we did a pretty good job on uh on covering it and you know obviously we didn't say everything about the ban but we <unk> you know give it a fair shake i think <unk> having it called fare was enough for me mhm [laughter] um generally engineering accurate [noise] yes uh generally accurate that's high praise from uh i live right outside of the [noise] [laughter] um so i think we can wrap up the show well anyway uh i'm going to say william do you have any final words wisdom nope no wisdom this week okay mike [laughter] [noise] um no what were the wisdom i um if i don't know if anyone noticed but i'm using my new blue snowball so far you notice the audio college better i did yeah go ahead and buy that um you know not pushing for that but i just turned and i looked up on it and it was [noise] it does seem that comes out well so <unk> um no i think we [noise] [noise] yeah well that's that's funny that i recommended that microphone in the last show and you ended up buying one [noise] it is a good mind [noise] mhm well we'll see when the sun's out and we'll see we'll see if it doesn't sound like i'm under water [laughter] uh well you definitely don't sound like you're under water [noise] uh that's good [noise] so so that that that may be one improvements time going to say then [noise] having <unk> you have been listening to <unk> you can find the <unk> all previous offices at <unk> dot com including links to our future non line and a few resources to help you makes sense of today's topic you're also find links to subscribe to us on high tuned or throughout upon hackers do our water based book andrew blessed page is not a whole lot more questions commonsense ingestion may be sent to <unk> dot com you can also submit those translated readings we played the palm pilot show <unk> display in our head or at least see the contribute paid for details [noise] thanks for listening [noise] i need to i need to check on something with audio second can you not talk for a second let me see if we can still hear something yeah william when you talk there's some sort of popping in behind you i don't know what's going on there but i do i'm fussing around or the thing in my hand i put it down [laughter] yeah [laughter] well that that would writer [laughter] okay i kept my alright alright so anyway we <unk> we were talking about um you know using the tone of voice and then he was mentioning how in english um [noise] you use other methods determine what the scope is and some in some language is there is a separate morphine or separate particle to mark what year negating for the <unk> <unk> where you've got more flexibility was where your standard and the gator can go mhm yeah hey let's stop again i'm still here popping is you're mike really close to your mouth or something william [noise] not more than normal i can move in a way [noise] how about you know <unk> <unk> [noise] four years ago [laughter] okay i'm not hearing it now you know i mean <unk> what was going on all right maybe <unk> anyway so tell me when to start again okay well we can start okay [noise] um

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. Brithenig
  4. conlang
  5. language
  6. linguistics
  7. negation

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 44 Negation (last edited 2017-09-07 08:27:54 by TranscriBot)