Conlangery #45: Questions

Conlangery #45: Questions

Published: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 04:03:38 +0000 \

Content from the Conlangery Podcast is licenced as Creative Commons Attribution - Non Commercial - Share-Alike. You are free to copy, distribute, remix, and create derivative works from the show, so long as you give attribution, your work is not commercial in nature, and you also use a the same license on your own product. The same licence therefore applies to the following transcript.

Transcript

utterance-id1 a nickel and dime you the <unk> that that you can tell [noise] [noise] <unk> languages are people who create them i'm george carlin i'm joy in wisconsin by the one the only window william and hello and over in new jersey by um drawing by michael <unk> hello [noise] okay well how are you guys doing [noise] it was just peachy [noise] the weather here still scaring me but <unk> too yes finally i finally finished reading dan average new book how was it and oh i heard that she didn't like it no it's it's fine it's so it's called language a cultural tool he's making an argument for a popular audience about why universal grammar is ludicrous idea but because most of his audience is intended audience or not in fact linguists he has to repeat basic linguistic things over and over again mm which is a little maddening if you know the material already um i think i i still prefer dispersed book which has the great title don't sleep there are snakes um sort of mixes talking about language with his experiences in the amazon more entertaining reading whereas language the cultural tool is making along complicated argument mm it's a good book but it's it's less um thrilling reading i suppose we could say how long has it it's not too long i don't have any time they tell you would recommend it oh it would it would it's there's a lot of interest in it as long as we're doing recommendations i saw drawn carter and if you're going for the language [noise] going to say you might be a little disappointed because <unk> there's a chunk of <unk> dialogue at the beginning [noise] which is not sort of what sort of an average performance and then very quickly they do something to change it to a uh hey translations invention so there's not really much in [noise] ah yeah and it was not but you know really <unk> either so yeah it was a movie it was it was not bad but it's it's i think that um the reason that um did badly box office was mostly marketing 'cause it's not really a bad movie and it's a kind of movie that people would like to just go and see and turn your brain off [laughter] you know it's not a great movie either no no it's it's really not i mean i like that it continues the current fad for face tattoos equal space aliens [laughter] i'm always like had the instance of that well it is it's kind of hard to um uh it's it's it's kind of hard to differentiate the red martians for humans other than [noise] they also had them have blue blood which apparently uh which i don't think was in the book i i agree it's been so long since i tried to read this i don't know they're um [noise] the books or not i think they actually improved on certain story points in the movie because the in the book drawn carter is very boring character anyway yeah well that's top stopped talking about fiction and uh and non fiction recommendations and let's start talking about question you'd think already so [laughter] good [laughter] so okay today's topic is about questions and mainly we want to talk about so when you're creating your language you have to there's a whole bunch of things that you have to deal with when you're dealing with how to structure questions but i think the very most important thing is with our two types they're polar questions also cold yes no questions and then there are question more questions you mike you've said it said content questions [noise] i've heard w. h. word questions <unk> basically so to to give you example so polar question is a question where the answer is directly and affirmative we're negative so it's have you been to the senators house versus uh w. h. word question is part of the sentence is replaced too as what i asked about that part of the <unk> so uh where have you been or who went to the senators house so and language is usually have very sometimes they'll have similar strategies for both like um english and spanish and a lot of european languages just use a lot of um changes in word order for both kinds either fronting the <unk> the question word for question words in front of her for polar questions [noise] uh what they can have totally different ones like uh in chinese the question where it's <unk> there's no change in the signs basically you just stick the question word in there but there's actually a couple of different strategies for pull the questions that i'll save talking too much about that for when we talk in detail specifically about power questions but um [noise] i don't know william do you have any general things about questions you want to say uh i don't think so i think we should just dig into you know start with polar questions and then move onto the content questions [noise] um yeah okay it's just leading alright well polar questions so um polar questions mike you you you'll notice [laughter] you you the polar questions are an interesting subject aren't they because polar questions in themselves require maybe several different things because you have to figure out if you're going how you're going to handle such things as leading question mhm um so you know you can ask just a direct uh did you go to the centers house or you didn't go to the centers how did you or something like that you went or you went to the centers house then you yeah that's true um the <unk> right so there's multiple ways to indicate to you're listening to that you're expecting a particular kind of answer yeah [noise] right [noise] um and you know english you sort of um an extra clause in there um there's different languages [noise] mike [laughter] if i'm wrong on this [laughter] okay so literature taught us but um when you do the <unk> which is [noise] one one there's two ways to form a poet question in chinese one is to say the verb then <unk> which is negative park and then the verb again and that is neutral and she said that <unk> when you use a mock question which is you add a part of what the end you are implying doubt [noise] is that right well what i heard i thought that when you do very urban onion negating the verb right after it either with verbal boo verb or like yom <unk> get it right afterwards yeah um i think that's a neutral and i thought that the <unk> sometimes more of a formal town um and it can be also to validate like um yeah i don't know we we don't need to get into the complex these of of chinese but i think i think it's just kind of similar i'm sorry yeah i wanted to bring up that as an example partly because it shows that you can use <unk> totally different strategies for these two different things well i think it's like an english where are you set where one on one of them is like did you eat breakfast and the other one is you might breakfast right that's right i think is similar in in uh in usage or into one it's trying to denote um 'cause yeah it'd probably be no questions one of them is a little bit more validate you have a point that you think is true or <unk> well actually true either way mhm i i do think the the er the positive than negative is my favorite way to foreign polar questions <unk> that's one reason i i specifically wanted a pointed it out but [laughter] they're <unk> very easily things in common link that i like to do that i'm fond of but i have to confess i don't have a favorite strategy for polar question what i that's that's that's <unk> [laughter] there's always something i enjoy okay so we're talking about this this public questions is worse um mentioning that slightly more than half the languages on the planet mark pulled her questions with a particle huh yeah <unk> most often is final mhm mm like in the chinese instance sometimes it's initial i've heard of that uh-huh oh like <unk> which it's and it's bronco stole that idea from polish borrowed ah borrowed [laughter] and no one trivial <unk> put that part of <unk> in my favorite position <unk> position locker [laughter] so fifty two so going with walls fifty two out of the eight hundred and eighty three languages that they use for the public question issue has a pretty cool in second position to mark questions does that <unk> that's <unk> yeah it's yeah yeah after the first word and the sentence so decided a thing where are the first intonation you knew what it how <unk> the point is um these question uh pull her question particles are quite popular um it seems like in some areas i know they're both african languages and some you know tai chi and other sort of languages um east asia south east asia where you have both initial and final particle option with mhm you might use both you might use one you might use the other so there are various possibilities there with you know this or that settled bit of implications or formality um deciding between them mm that's interesting [noise] and there's also an issue just like we had last time was nick <unk> what's the scope questions can have scope too did you go to the store did you go to the store did you go to the store all that sort of stuff [laughter] um english we use <unk> nation um <unk> has a clinic particle but it's <unk> i'm down to things that can be used indicate that um so you might have um in a mix of things to you you might have a special article marking focus just the questions they're trying to say uh-huh so okay just to just just so that you have the scope right right exactly 'cause you get if certain languages don't like to do with english does like if you've uh strongly total language doing english style tricks to focus might not work so well that's interesting um yeah obviously the english [noise] way of doing these things with um [noise] with purely intonation it can be <unk> or purely for <unk> <unk> means can can be a little difficult to deal with his <unk> yeah um so i've noticed i've i've noticed someone um becoming mailing list has taken to using a grub accent on the stress syllable words to mark his focus [laughter] in both questions yeah i agree i agree of accident why not an acute using stars on either end of the word undermining or whatever seems too intrusive i assume that's why he does it <unk> [laughter] i'm just thinking well anyway uh so the point is well there's i've already made my points to be <unk> [noise] yeah well um my you have any more once on ways to form polar questions and you know we've mentioned the particle was the most common i'm figure the the the verb not verb is probably not terribly common mhm i don't know uh there's also the thing that so many european languages do which is moved verbs are the <unk> or in the case of english movie auxiliary to the front even if there is no jewelry mm [laughter] um yeah which is kinda weird [laughter] [noise] what the dummy do just on a whim since we're still on this topic i'll just mentioned regarding these particles it's really common for the word or to get dramatic closed into a question mark or as a part of that's true yes yes as a <unk> not a buck or not dealer <unk> [laughter] <unk> or or <unk> posts intentional pre pre central i would guess <unk> initial yeah initial um animal so or you went to the senators house could could be used as a question yes <unk> that's actually there's any more than one language where those words appear to be related to somebody for medical any kind of makes sense you know it's an interesting little semantics shift isn't it it it i think it's you know <unk> if it's not a cousin of some sort of relation to the verb not ver mhm you're presenting options and the present reason taste of options became um you know lost the sense of choice until finally it was just marking any question at all mhm yeah that's that's an interesting thing and and since from articles i was just gonna mentioned one last one <unk> will during array of combination stir questions one which is just to add to work maybe to the end of a sentence which of those words maybe <unk> uh oh okay that's yeah yeah we just moved back to the <unk> right so there's another possibility for um grammatical arising existing vocabulary into waste mart pulled her questions and the apostrophe a bottle suffers it uh uh <unk> um any uh adjusted marker detective okay how about them like d. a. apostrophe <unk> this is [laughter] i can i can explain <unk> two later [laughter] okay [laughter] yeah yeah um they will feature <unk> but uh [noise] um <unk> might do you have any other things about how to foreign polar questions or can we move on to uh answering polar questions which is well one thing i want to talk about one other thing that i mentioned on here there there's you some <unk> um we might go on to this later but maybe special conjugation on the verb might be able to show um yes or no question or just the tone of voice and say you went to school or you went to school [noise] um and then i just <unk> on the shots i heard that there's a difference between united states and britain and uh england british ah pronunciation on that <unk> intonation and when i heard it i don't know how true this is or if it's true across the board but i heard that basically report questions in <unk> in in american english you typically rise at the end like do are are you going to the store but i heard that in um on the other side of the pond they say i'd gone to the star or like that that flight falling on it i'm not sure if that's the way it is across the board for polar and if it splits also for w. h. but um that was this little side note on using tone of voice where you could use that to mark polar questions or you could use it for w. h. questions that's well that's true we have a particular <unk> pattern and english more questions all <unk> it's sort of not exactly cut and dry but you when you apply ah that particular <unk> to uh a statement it can turn that serve turned it into a question i don't know william <unk> have you heard about this in other languages a common thing or it it is i have a ball of the things in linguistics this is one of the most fascinating to me mid languages all over this planet have this strategy available to them as a way of marketing a question doing something different at the end of it intonation unit which distinguishes it from statement from question mhm it is not always the same as the pattern obviously we use in the u._s. or the <unk> a different [noise] but the reason <unk> whatever it is they're doing in the u._k. it's nuts different enough from what we're doing in the u. s. that i can't watch british t._v. mhm yeah well you say what's going on you can understand it right i i know what's going on there and there maybe i didn't even picking up on but no <unk> you know a language like west greenland dick <unk> questions maybe march simply by <unk> [noise] yeah yeah which is you know <unk> uh <unk> it happens all over but it's it's scary to me how this one thing which is so strange and you would expect to be so language specific is so universal for the marketing of question it does it does seem really odd that this this uh curves all over i i didn't realize it was [noise] um i don't know maybe there's something special about but you know it's really difficult to talk about <unk> <unk> in the first place so it's kinda hard to to give people much advice on how to use the strategy and your con lying because it's so hard to [noise] to figure out but uh it is i mean i think that's probably the most characteristics one of the most characteristic things about someone speaking english with an accent <unk> you can always having to spend your speaking of question because their question intonation is still obviously question but it's definitely different uh-huh yeah it has a characteristic movement that it's not like a native speaker english yeah see [laughter] anyway so um that's the quick question on um we mentioned piling a particle but it's <unk> like attack question or maybe just a phrase only i'm considered a particle i'm thinking especially i think in japanese they use <unk> <unk> <unk> am i am sure not sure that's good and and you know <unk> although i don't know how often that occurs outside of you know american french classes um with like [laughter] well in english you can use yes or no um at the end of a sentence although it's sort of marked and and uh people associate it with certain kinds of people [noise] right [noise] um but we can say put right at the end of uh this is true you can put in right all right yeah um i think there was a reasonably <unk> well maybe if you make a uh a future english you can you can uh make right <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> sure absolute um but anyway i think overall the whole sin tactic way that you form uh these this particular type of question sort of depends on what you're going to do and the <unk> definitely there's probably more for if you're doing stress accent languages than if you're doing a tonal language although <unk> phone it's yeah yeah although i think there is sort of a weird pattern in chinese that that that can happen but it's sort of [noise] it's hard to distinguish because of the towns but anyway yeah when i was doing research for the show i found some papers with some extremely scary um forty spectra grams of questions in idaho ooh dear we'll just leave it there mhm [laughter] um [laughter] anyway um but another important thing is to consider specifically with polar questions is how do you answered yes so and english we have two different words to answer it you have yes which is an affirmative action means that is true and know which means that is not true [noise] basically <unk> there's a lot of complications in that but yeah [laughter] there are other languages i think <unk> japanese does this somebody correct me if i'm wrong but they <unk> you're japanese has yes and no okay i don't know just to use a bear yes or no but they have one um but i thought that they were agreeing with the speaker rather than saying the truth of the state is that oh yeah they're good yes absolutely they couldn't be differences there that i was never i i mean i i only had like a young guy hire people have said to me the japanese when you say hi it's you're agreeing with the snake met not saying anything about the truth of the statement okay um but that might be that might be something that's scrambled in my head i didn't i didn't bother to look it up which i should him [noise] but you can't have that difference as to whether you are um in english we used to actually have four different words yes no <unk> in may and then you and me were that you were agreeing with somebody rather than saying anything about the truth the statement so in other words if we were still using the <unk> may i could say did you go to the centers house you could say yes or no or i could say you didn't go to the senators house did you and you could say yes meaning i did go for you could say hey meaning no i didn't go ah agreeing with what the speaker is leaving you decide right so this leads out the big complexity how do you answer a negative question the bane of every high school language [laughter] well that's true like one uh one of the things that all i always go back to when i when i'm thinking about this is um it's not actually a negative but it has similar problems is the question do you mind you have to be very specific when you answer that in english because either yes or no would be giving the person permission to what they're for what they're asking to do do <unk> the self yeah though you might have to be specific yeah but sometimes that's not really questions that the formality like you know like do you mind if i ask you this is true yes you mean you could even more lightness thing yes they're not really asking question illustrates how these things can be kind of weird like um like if you say did you go to the senators house <unk> peaceful way would be yes would mean you that you did right in english my dialect of english <unk> yes yes that could be different from language language in it [noise] it can be really confusing when you're in a conversation then that's why we have ways of dealing with it now my i think you put in your notes that not all languages will even use this yes and now [noise] yeah i was um let me see what was i know in ah chinese is the one that i think i mentioned where in there aren't just one word for yes lowered for now i might have mentioned in um the <unk> topic ah notes um i'm chinese if you say you know did you eat dinner then you'd say i have er i haven't <unk> there isn't really yes there's not just one more hour that more if you say um <unk> if you say [noise] did you understand his house you could say you know true or not true usually now you said go or didn't go although chinese actually does have to educated guessing no uh-huh uh-huh and boo boo but they don't use them as much they usually repeat the verb ah either positive or negative yeah right i i don't think the <unk> isn't necessarily like uh yes i think that's more of uh i listen i'm listening like similar to list or maybe uh maybe an <unk> in your head um yeah it's sort of it's sort of weird but let's let's let's let's get out of the the the rabbit hold though but um [noise] out of the rabbit hole but in general you can actually do away with yes and no and have them repeat the audience repeat the verb repeat some part of your <unk> i don't know william you have example from our language is to say like 'cause i know in chinese all you have to do is repeat the verb and then there's other other other things you can do but i don't know <unk> other languages that you know it's it's the languages i know best all have yet to know available to them mhm in ancient greek had like a ninety billion ways to agree or disagree with someone that was what someone who's just said [laughter] well i <unk> i think that's sort of a general thing there's a lot of different ways you can do it well that's <unk> medically but yeah um [noise] so i don't know that's one thing to think about just in general issues with yes and now does anybody have any other things to bring up about polar questions before we move on to w. h. i don't think so i don't know i think that's good okay well why don't we move on then so w. h. questions or content questions or question words questions [noise] basically what you do and basically what any language i think does here is you replace the part of the sentence you're questioning with uh pro form and and english they have that happens to be that four out of five of them start with w. h. so we call them w. h. questions a lot but uh that was that big probably a little pro [laughter] um i <unk> i'm not sure what you mean pro or little fro but uh i'm not saying i'm pro for [laughter] um because like it can be a a pronoun like what and who are pronouns but there's also like i would say square is like uh pro adverb but anyway this takes us into theory we don't need to that that yeah that gets a little <unk> gets a little confusing but in general you're just replacing a part of the sentence that you want to know [noise] so and there's different there's different strategies so in english we're used to you move the question we're to the <unk> most of the time yeah um other languages again this is like the third time where you're mentioning chinese but they leave it inside and i think a lot of vitamin c. to leave it [noise] yeah they they live it leave it where it would be <unk> um so if we can talk a little bit about type <unk> apparently via so languages are more likely to have some sort of fronting the anger for interactive <unk> whereas the other orders it can go either way [noise] goals that makes sense because that that's for of e._s._o. language that's like a natural focus position isn't it yeah so and then we had two s._t._o. languages like english which has w. h. movement and chinese which does not mhm yeah so you can so it's more likely in some circumstances than others but you can kind of pick and choose what you want to do yeah um and then uh what the movement um i'm sorry what are you gonna say something no go ahead i was just gonna mentioned [noise] speaking of w. h. movement um i know in the notes i mentioned that something that lines have a limit on how many w. h. phrases come you moved [noise] like an english you could say you know what did you eat or what did you eat where or where did you meet what but you can't say where what did you eat but in russia and you can move small and i don't know about all this logic languages or if that's something based on case um but in english or you can move to w. h. questions like that you would say who wait what where when or when did who hate what [noise] or you can all sorts of different things that you can only one you can't say well one who ate [laughter] it just gets in the guy that's uh that's that's a really interesting that may probably have to do with how non configurations earlier languages 'cause 'cause word order in ah in russian is pretty flexible isn't it yeah yeah yeah so [noise] probably you want to consider what parts of the question you can move and if you if you are doing the w. h. renting and you know maybe where they go if you if you end up with a big <unk> [noise] now i have a <unk> um um i'm signed um this is really into if you have if you have a verb that um er <unk> morphology where if you show both the subject and the object and you're questioning what um do you is there like a no <unk> <unk> you might be able to use their motives disconnect okay you use the normal third person working oh okay <unk> i was just curious about that because if you do normally i guess if you have that w. h. movement if you don't have your uh what to say the rules are what's playing what role then perhaps and we all do would be very confusing because you just have a whole slew of w. h. <unk> things in the beginning you wouldn't know what the subject was the object <unk> indirect object um honestly i think these multiple w. h. questions and the single claws are pretty unnatural [laughter] yeah well they well i think maybe two is somewhat common i mean not more calm but yeah like what like what did you eat where or like who did you see when i mean sure they're not maybe you'd see them in every eight hours asian but i wouldn't think they're necessarily and like i don't think that necessarily wanna like once in a blue moon [laughter] um i would say that um it might be something that you will get too if you're constructing uh language too oh full extent but i would say that even though that that they're not necessarily a natural but they're very low frequency [noise] i don't think i i have i have asked a question like that in the past year so [noise] of course you know that planning on how much you trust my own observations but anyway it's just it's just i have a hard time thinking of the <unk> pragmatic serve asking three separate content issues in the single claws uh-huh it's off i mean it's often very uh very <unk> yeah <unk> and when you <unk> yeah yeah <unk> <unk> at least in classical know at least any w. h. question is just marked as normal third person participant in the claws i'm sure if there are languages and have special person marking i doubt that they <unk> that that if it exists it that it would be very common <unk> yes i can't recall i don't know i seen like that i see question structures is largely a function of the the larger some tactic structure of the language anyway so i don't think that it's going to the people are going to invent a and a different person marking paradigm for just for questions yeah uh-huh mhm anyway anything else about w. h. christians [noise] no i think we <unk> [laughter] nothing i think we've covered it one thing i just wanted to mention is if you haven't listened to a two hour [laughter] show on indefinite so we have a lot to say about other ways negative uh other ways question words can be used in language i was thinking about that actually <unk> certainly we we don't need to give um mandarin examples here but your question word into your indefinite <unk> in some languages are very closely allied yeah we've we've we've talked enough about jazz ramp but anyway i mean <unk> i'm just mentioned that you can go listen to our previous show if you wanted to look at them and then <unk> going to u._t. which show i know what show it is but i don't know trimming number but uh twenty eight right tom landry number twenty eight okay so you might want yeah people might want to take a look at that and see how you can do how you could use question words in other ways we're late question words to other things um william you had some general notes i think involving how mood affects questions and things like yeah right so there seems to be a small number of languages on this planet that always use whatever eerie alice is in questions all questions always are uncertain therefore are marked eerie alice i'm most used to seeing this in languages in yes of course the pacific coast to the united states [laughter] [laughter] where all things can be found um [laughter] but i don't think that's that's you know true everywhere didn't japanese i'm so confused <unk> japanese a special bird farm for questions yet no it has a particle <unk> ah there are some languages that have special verb moods just for questions gesture questions that thing and then i might take a little detour here so they're really we've just been talking about questions and the very most broad sense mhm and in a normal question when i'm speaking i don't know something and i think someone i'm talking to does but there are other kinds of questions they're our rhetorical questions where i know and i think my audience does too um there's a conjecture question when i don't know and i don't think anyone knows and the reason i mention contractual questions is because in some languages if the pacific northwest again but i think it occurs in other languages as well using an <unk> an indirect evident show plus your normal question marking it's how you murphy's contractual questions [noise] now i have a question uh [laughter] and this [laughter] this is a very very um this would be sort of advance con lying because it involves things like <unk> style but [noise] is it do certain languages and even certain genres <unk> more of these ah recording <unk> questions than normal because and people are going to be drunk if they do the mentioned chinese and drink game but uh i i seem to notice that chinese discourse uses more recorder questions in english that could be confirmation bias or something or just like because i'm specifically cute to to look for their record will structure but i think that's the case i think i've heard that in american sign language they use a lotta rhetorical questions also [noise] that's interesting that's actually how does a._s._l. market question they're like i say [laughter] like there's there's enough yes yes yes uh uh raise your eyebrows right that's yeah one of them is raise their eyebrows or i think you can also do the verb not very passing it in some instances i i'd only took him for a little while and i had i had the opportunity to work with someone who was um you know deaf and the capital defence of the word um and it was you know i got to <unk> <unk> converse with her a little bit but mainly it was a facial expression um and this is ethel again not just you know signing less um the facial expressions are very strong market for that sometimes if it was a <unk> question um you'd show option one option to undo or sign so <unk> that we <unk> we have or is a question [laughter] um and i think in at least some dialects of a._s._l. there's also a live person involved anyway mhm oh yeah there's there's you raise your eyebrows and push your lips yeah yeah um russian in terms of using rhetorical questions yeah i think that's definitely a stylistic thing i would would not surprise me at all to find that there are some cultures where they're almost never used <unk> um and the chinese have had two and a half millennia to accumulate rhetorical strategy so [laughter] like that so i i mean what inspired <unk> they're they're not they're writing could be very uh uh difficult even when you do understand the character so right right and then the last kind of question i just put it in print disease i call it the <unk> it's a credit question where i know but i think the first i'm asking doesn't um frankly i think of his mostly as a new dell teenage boys question style <unk> that's where your your your that's the sort of thing where you asked the question and then immediately answer it or wait for a wrong answer incorrect them right yeah right or just sort of gotcha is that what the teachers would ask a student [laughter] well yeah that's what that's that's how sort of credit method works right yes you're questioning you you have ideas that you need to you want to lead people to buy a system of questioning uh anyways uh contractual questions i thought it was neat you know what on earth is that um is an opportunity to use um evidence holes in questions where very often evident jewels or not using questions uh-huh yeah that's that's that is an interesting thing so you say just to recap <unk> there's languages in the pacific north west of that use and you can use an indirect <unk> to market contractual question yes indirect so you have a digital plus <unk> question marketer uh-huh so whatever you say what in what is that indirect and that means you don't know what it is you don't think anybody else knows what it is you just want to draw attached to it you just want to yeah like you just what you just want to complain now if it were on so it's like what you say when you when you see a u._f._o. or something [laughter] sure now if if it weren't a <unk> question if it were <unk> like just a regular <unk> um what was it called the ah the first one was a normal question ah how easy it was just a normal question would you use the direct eventually just is it uh you could just dropped the evidence altogether and ah it depends on the language um <unk> i typically if i invent the language evidence was go the simple route and only allow declared of statements to take <unk> [laughter] okay easy uh [laughter] yeah i'm going to have a a report it is evident show mhm the possibility is there to ask either a simple question mm which would have no marking or ask if you've heard something oh okay so the the contractual use strikes me william as one of your uh part of your principal grammar of is born hungry were basically co-op thing the indirect <unk> to do something else yeah absolutely that's not that's not related to its court meeting right is that <unk> the practical but it just gets grab for you yeah mhm yeah [noise] um so what else can we talk about i think we've covered questions pretty well even going into these non well i don't wanna say non literal but you know report on conjecture all kinds of things uh did anybody have anything else that they didn't say earlier that you kinda wanna cover or can we move on i think i'm covered everything i wanted to say yeah i think i think a couple of them too except i remember yeah <unk> that's how yeah of course i'm i'm <unk> i'm sure i'm sure that somebody will make comments and stuff and give us examples from languages we never heard of or something but uh uh definitely con language email dot com or comment on the site um then we're going to move on and we are <unk> today and ah unlike before we're gonna talk about a net <unk> most of our uh listeners have heard of and probably know a little bit about and that light <unk> language is well <unk> now the sources we have that we're going to link to our for early welsh middle well [noise] but uh william you explain that modern <unk> not is is kind of conservative right so i i think it is somewhat conservative yeah some uh some of this information applies to modern washes well buttons it's still sort of it's sort of our kick in some cases right and the only reason for that is that we have two good sources that are freely available for early wealth grammar whereas i could not find a complete kramer of modern well anywhere on line although they may well be such a thing i didn't find it yeah we wanted something we can lake too and that all of us could read because yeah williams the only one currently with ah access to uh a lotta university internet connection to liberia yeah basically a university library yeah um so let's talk about well [noise] yes um the i was mentioning before the show i don't help hey well shore <unk> of course when we're talking about an outline of course we're not you want to talk too much about <unk> because it's naturally developed but you know welfare as an example of one where i mean you can ah make sort of an more natural worked harder free without going too crazy i think uh-huh it's now there's a little bit crazy let's not get that wrong but you know it's a little bit crazy but like it doesn't bother me that w is uh is used was about some people it might bother but it's not a big deal to me anyway it's not like they're <unk> gosh [laughter] we'll talk a little bit about phonology i'm looking at [noise] uh on page ten of the the book the introduction to early well [noise] i saw this table of constant mutations i noticed that not all of the constants have all the mutations nope and there's actually sort of uh system for that like um so the ah the the voice was closeups have four different mutations than the voice one's only have three and then on them and it makes sense based on well of course one of the mutations it involves addict voicing mhm that's uh i'm i'm just want people to look at that because i think if you're going to do constantly patients you might want to make sure i understand that if everything mutate switch appears to be the case in wolf uh-huh they're not every single mutated exactly the same ways partly because it's you can't always they they they physically can't be mutated in that way and otherwise it might just be the historical changes are a little bit different so unlike um [noise] the guy that like languages north the um <unk> does not have <unk> okay doesn't and the simple liquids do know either although the voice less ones do yeah you <unk> that they can gain voicing basically all of it you can become trial because it can become allow or however you pronounce that yes is that right yeah and <unk> become ron and these are based on the <unk> the sound that comes before it right correct um for something that's a beginning a word um sort of a cindy <unk> style thing going on or at least i <unk> i couldn't go stiff sunday [laughter] the <unk> typically the sound of it is <unk> has altered disappeared mhm uh-huh mutilation is the only trace left is that the case i know um i've heard that in well this is this is just uh i think irish there's ah if it's uh like uh i think <unk> at a feminine word it in the <unk> uh has led mission i'm not sure if there's anything that's just driven like that and well do you know um yeah there are various interactions between uh gender um the last traces of case marking that have subsequently disappeared <unk> before [noise] different possessive pronouns um add positions all the whole thing ah various things that come ah the definite article all of these things can potentially cause changes huh mhm mhm um what else does have gender yep mhm um i don't i didn't i haven't read so i'm kind of paging through this book [laughter] and uh on i'm paging through a book on line that's interesting yeah i mean trying to figure out certain things but um it's been the reason the reason i we put wilson listed all of course is this is the language that inspired token for syndication mhm yes [laughter] um and it's one that inspires a lot of kahn lawyers every once in a while i see on the b._b._c. or on the c._d. somebody posting uh uh phonology that has a big list of um mutations lending [laughter] whatever i'm like i look at that i'm like well [noise] for [laughter] i raised influence in general have used me um mine [laughter] we should we shouldn't mention i forgot to mention so just in case i'm sure most people know this but <unk> is an indoor european language and the celtic family [noise] uh so people who uh went to avoid into european this might want to stay away but again the celtic languages have things like this <unk> system that uh or or mutations system whatever you want to call it that are sort of uniquely celtic gotten away yeah yeah uh the celtic languages are actually surprisingly strange mhm compared to their relatives i don't know if <unk> irish it's so strange that for a while people weren't sure it was in the new european language [laughter] oh really yeah yeah oh yeah sorry go ahead mhm oh no no i was just uh i was going to science basket and then the european no no definitely not not [laughter] so [noise] some of the <unk> let's just mentioned some of the things that we have in the <unk> languages and welsh um it's b._s._o. uh-huh that's pretty weird <unk> gets propositions or conjugate it huh that's that's really <unk> is that similar to like in spanish like come eagles <unk> are they yeah one of the country kids let me see if we can where i'm at all like i said like perhaps like in spanish like gum evil comes segal when he's at home mom except except it applies to the entire system ooh yeah it applies to all of them there's basically sussex is but uh <unk> person the number mhm so it's is it a lot like that but it's <unk> all of your um [noise] it's too late applies to all of your propositions so i like that that's that's interesting so you have a math on me on <unk> on ah yeah right so pages thirty eight through forty of the book grammar have the various <unk> proposition into this um this sort of lessons thing that we found on middle well has it has a chapter epidemiology me at all in her positions [noise] uh that's that's where you'll find that a nice little chart and life and i'm sure there's a certain book too right and and one of the things about these behaviors of the celtic languages have lead people to suspect that the um vigorous trade in ten that was managed by the <unk> from the british isles them this is actually um effects from the synthetic languages do they have that aspect yeah both of them do exactly they're both being so they both conjugate the garbage and now that to me sounds like a load of <unk> but it's an argument that sometimes footed around and might get people interesting ideas for these <unk> <unk> i don't know i i it seems it seems like a long way to go for uh an area affect it does that's my main objection to <unk> i think if there were <unk> uh like sound similarities perhaps but i don't know about a structural similarities without jumping like that oh they can sure yeah and just <unk> they can jump but i think that usually is more like an area affected not you're trading with these people who are coming from very far away i don't think they're gonna affect on everyday language <unk> there may have been some colonies regardless you and i both agree there's two people for this affect [noise] anyway yeah i mean even if you normally avoid the uh in the european feeling languages the celtic languages have quite an array of pretty divergent behaviors that are worth looking at [noise] mhm [noise] so [noise] ah one thing i wanted to mention mhm that i thought it was neat and that came to my attention is if you look in chapter ten of the uh online middle welsh you mentioned that the third person singular <unk> has five different form [noise] oh yes this is <unk> i love this we had <unk> which is archaic and used in certain indian [noise] we have you which comes after predicates and before the subject so when you invested the word order [noise] um my day which comes when the <unk> comes before the subject and and it can be used in question [noise] you have <unk> which is used the negatives questions effect in conditions so here we have a special <unk> okay huh usually use the negatives questions that fact and conditions we were just talking about how some languages mark um questions with a different mood this year seems to be that <unk> yeah [noise] and then the last one um uh sees is used it's it's an existential it means there is effectively <unk> that's really interesting um so our all of the somehow derived from parts of the in the european <unk> popular or where other verbs incorporated into this for what am i guess is that we don't know yeah well i'm sure someone knows i don't yeah neither of these <unk> go into a great deal of historical data so you know i don't have the information that would let us know [laughter] i know some of these forms appear mhm [noise] um [noise] the here right now um so that's that some other things that i wanted to mention about syntax that that might be interesting for people to think about uh normally <unk> you know follow deep in the clause if you move an adverb or thing that's like an adverb like improvisational fray out to the front of your sentence you use a special particle after it mhm oh <unk> so you know in the example here is you know he rises [noise] the next day um they weren't you have the next day noise and then you have to <unk> e. and then the rest of the scented this is just a reduced to kind of relative claws it just happens to have special particle different like this idea so when they're moving at <unk> they have a part a called a separate effectively i mean in it because this is an indoor european languages decide oh this is relative position blah blah blah effectively you have an adverb you'll topical wiping particle i i love how um chrome is telling me those pages in well would you like to translate it [laughter] [laughter] that's good [laughter] <unk> oh i would have thought [laughter] [laughter] yeah uh and and the same thing if you need to <unk> er focus something it gets shoved into the front of the sentence and once again another particle the comes before the verb gets used in this case it is still ah hey this is the normal relative particle and again as william you have pointed out time and again because of e._s._o. language is kind of expected that it it then it's understood understandable but focused gets shut the front that happens a lot on a lot of via satellite [noise] right [noise] um passive in welsh are pretty darn weird it's it's affected leading impersonal it have no person it's not like where's the where's the past twenty eight twenty uh chapter twenty seven of the online burn okay [noise] and they're pretty darn rare ooh oh and they don't use it much well they have an easy way to to focus things and put things right exactly exactly [noise] um those [noise] go ahead [laughter] um <unk> one of the things that token borrowed from welsh you sort of got an idea in randomly that like <unk> is these <unk> in <unk> <unk> oh okay yeah that's crazy about and i was putting out the <unk> center and i have no idea i didn't even <unk> yeah um grab i'll send a lot of ah not wells elvis but [laughter] yeah that'll definitely bonkers the position of that right so dumb i worked for horse is <unk> [laughter] and the word for horses isn't it [laughter] right so you <unk> you know <unk> we're saying welsh and welsh and what else yeah um um but uh that's interesting i'm seeing important but the point i wanted to make is that is available in welsh but it has a bunch of other ways to foreign plural is well uh-huh which involve none of these <unk> friends whereas <unk> is pretty systematically i mean there's exceptions of course but it's pretty i ended up <unk> in the book there's like several pages of ways to foreign plural yes really ah um what's the word really complicated like prejudice or yeah <unk> um oh what was the last one horse moorhead f. o. r. c. h. mar whereas okay that was the word for a while i thought medically let her daughter that's awesome um mm confused but huh i'm sorry so that's that's um huh so one thing that we can say definitely is you know a lot of different cases you see well having multiple different strategies not just with the <unk> lots of different studies but there's a lot of places where you have [noise] multiple different strategies for the same thing and that's something that we want to encourage and not just multiple different strategies for the same thing but different strategies applied to different situations or to a different words or something which is <unk> you know what the florals do is you have several different ways forming <unk> depending on the word that you have to sort of memorize [noise] right yeah oh no uh <unk> uh in terms of that i know the the russians additive floral uh there are lots of who wants to or not depending upon what the the electrical for them to where it is yeah that seems to be the case here just in general [noise] um i'm trying to find here which is worse have much in a way of cases at all it doesn't seem line and nope i'm see i don't have anything that i'm new to gender but nope but uh [laughter] and okay oh god no case at all i mean there may be some edgar real like words that preserve little with <unk> but i don't think otherwise it's preserved yeah i i haven't seen any <unk> does it showed him to pronouns i mean i know english has barely any case at all and we use same pie and me and hand him right so there are differences and the person is only yeah there's there's cases in the pronouns but it's kind of any <unk> um [noise] and it's interesting it's a little different in relative clauses it looks like yep um so this sort of thing is very common <unk> the verb system is pretty darn simple and you have um non past which is president future imperfect predator it blew perfect and then at present and an imperfect suggested [laughter] and it's been paired it sounds like uh sounds like a pretty generic european system honestly like yeah absolutely yeah um [noise] now do they uh well um do they have a lot of <unk> in terms of helping verbs uh there are some um and it's important as in many of the celtic languages verbal now owns get used for multiple things and they're pretty important mhm um mhm often used for for things where we would use of jumped in different claws types they use verbal downs interest such it's such it's such as the proposition in and think that means in plus a verbal known to indicate purpose i did this in order to go oh huh right um [noise] yeah [noise] see yeah it it's not as developed in early roasted in in later wasn't certainly not as much as it is an irish but the verbal down which again is something that you have to memorize how their foreign <unk> no no verbal now is that kind of um well that'd be like uh the joined and english somewhat yeah basically uh okay [laughter] um okay so um the copy of that can go in different places than a normal <unk> is this right probably i'm not memorize all the details of the magnificent well <unk> well i'm trying to look at it uh in on page one o five it was <unk> about the position of the cop you [noise] and it looks like popular kim can sort of follow that so um you know that's <unk> rather than v._s. order sure i'm trying to sort of laughs at it and figure out um which makes sense in a way um [noise] i don't know is there much more we can really say uh <unk> uh i'm i'm sorry i was a little bit unprepared for this but it's uh [noise] it is very interesting and i may page through afterwards this book and find even more stuff that i feel like that i i will think i should've mentioned in the show but [laughter] basically we have some really good resource in here i wanna say and if you want to learn a little bit about well [noise] and you're not intimately familiar with it then uh uh go to wash your notes follow the links particularly this um reading middle welsh thing but there's also the the book is good to to just quarter page through yeah and and read the sections on an syntax i mean you can always learn interesting things about how any language and you know invented or natural how it decides to chop up this matrix base of repetitions conjunctions huh and all all these little things idioms um because it has so little morphology well she's kind of the syntax seventy language but it's still a very flexible syntax and the way it comes to that is pretty interesting one nice thing about this um this link or beside page is it mentioned in the press how to use this book and it kind of walks you along with a quick overview of what might be found where um like if you're using the <unk> the teacher you can pass over some certain sections or if you're um if you're put off by long list the first words from top to fourth says they're not meant for immediate learning and it just kinda gives you a <unk> almost like a little syllabus see kind of blurb yeah yeah well it's it's a teaching document here um uh there's a pen to cease to which show you various different things oh no <unk> if if you want to look at giant um giant church though stuffs and figure out stuff from that an interesting way to do um i don't know i think we can sort of move on uh we want to go to feedback or short yeah okay no less notes here i don't think that okay um then i got to do something special here we've got a new few new reviews on i too so uh we have one that's uh from m._b._r. sorry um says oh titled a wealth of knowledge <unk> uh five star one says i've learned more about language from the <unk> all my years of schooling these guys have turned me onto tons of interesting languages and linguistic features i listen to them at work to pass the time and i can go for hours smoking in all the information i read that one before i don't know no i i i i don't think i want to be responsible for someone slack off at work [laughter] and then uh <unk> says about time he said i've been <unk> for seven years now and i always get weird looks when people ask me why do it at that time there's a pot cash for people just get it thanks guys and keep up to a great work and then we also got a review that's for stars from literal minded and i'm not gonna read that out but it's basically copy and pasted from his blog entry work he linked to us and i'm going i'll ah put a link to that in the show nuts [noise] he has to grade he had some great blog yeah if you're not if you're if you're interested in linguistics is law gets i mean he tends to be a little bit more semantics focused or at least he was the last time i was reading it i had i've only recently <unk> into my [noise] why <unk> why why a lot of what he's doing is um talking about different usage <unk> and stuff yeah so he's um he's he's one of those guys were well it's sort of a general linguistics block but he's also one of the guys who ah will like defend various teams and stuff and actually teach you some linguistics in the process but and uh what would you say you used to and i remember hearing i'm doing this i don't think he's done it in a while he used to say talk about things let his son would say yeah his son especially early in their development of language it was always interesting you'd have fun things to say about phrases they used yeah [noise] but yeah the the that's that it's a good block but anyway i i was i was glad to see that we're getting more ah a couple of us get a couple of more reviews and we've gotten more ratings too [noise] um i think we've we may have some news listener so if you you you are listening to us fresh then ah welcome aboard welcome to the <unk> [laughter] i'm uh evil single parent finger paranoid there in that case um next episode we'll probably get some emails but other than that i think we can wrap up the show and uh mike this time do you have any final words are wisdom um [noise] basically just uh you know <unk> learn as much as you can about how other languages do things we find something interesting thing about a way you can maybe twist it funny or even just to use it and change a little bit and uh you know every languages a wealth of inspiration waiting to be discovered [laughter] okay [laughter] yeah [noise] every language needs that word for band joe [laughter] even if it doesn't exist in the in the world is attached to yes what's the <unk> yeah i i have [laughter] you're probably about that i mentioned um [laughter] i just mentioning is now because it's sort of the grand old man band joe <unk> just died this week so oh okay everybody make a word for band joe will make me have on her <unk> none of the <unk> uh a native word are kind of be like uh alone word well that's boring it needs to be yeah i know ah [laughter] that's the homework [laughter] i didn't know loans can be can be funny if you're phonology is really weird really different from english isn't it [noise] and now i wonder what hawaiian potential i'm looking at the time [laughter] [noise] uh i don't know but when i figured out that <unk> democracy i was actually the way that they've borrowed ah the english merry christmas i was like what in the world is going on [laughter] chinese i see is uh <unk> <unk> yeah <unk> seventy cents [noise] anyway uh [noise] before we digressed any further uh say happy con lying [laughter] you ever been listening to <unk> you can find the <unk> all previous episodes at <unk> dot com looting links to our future <unk> online and a few resources to help you makes sense of today's topic you're also find links to subscribe to us on i tuned or throughout her <unk> to our quarter face book and google plus pages and a whole lot more questions commonsense suggestions may be sent to <unk> dot com you can also submit those translated greetings we played the top of the show or con scripted display in our head hurts [noise] police e. b. contribute page for details [noise] thanks for listening [noise] [noise] [noise] sure i just [noise] now where does the word <unk> [noise] you know there is a surprisingly good question [laughter] [laughter] oh we don't we uh are we are the nobody <unk> everyone people have ideas but none of them are really followed okay these things can be sometimes weird that's actually an english syntax william well i know that there is like i've i've heard that shakespeare's bin <unk> uh <unk> um [noise] translate into climbing on its hands but it's sort of a very interpreted translation like um if you look at it the land of invented languages in the beginning of the <unk> on chapter [laughter] actually read the way that they translated er the line um is it better to face the <unk> and arrows um what is it um [noise] a great <unk> outrageous fortune of outrageous fortune they translate that as it is it is it honorable went inside the mind when endures the torpedoed in phases of aggressive fate george <unk> no okay [laughter] freaking <unk> come flex over a person okay now [laughter] [noise] what do you call them <unk> [laughter] go away [laughter] like that that's like a great category it's and and i'm very special uh polite this warm for asking for a change

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. language
  5. linguistics
  6. questions
  7. Welsh

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 45 Questions (last edited 2017-09-07 09:28:13 by TranscriBot)