Conlangery #46: Conlanging for Conworlds

Conlangery #46: Conlanging for Conworlds

Published: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 04:00:29 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 hey this is george just talking to your one second before we started the show i wanted to say there's an interesting project on kick starter where um the ah companies making a trading card game where in order to cast spells [noise] you have to memorize certain phrases that it will be in a <unk> now there's not a whole lot of the ah <unk> shown in their video but they are looking for a con lying or too you know ah mess with their stuff and turn it into a proper <unk> so that might be exciting anyway i will linked to the uh kick started page and [noise] ah by the time you get this and that this they may be already funded but you know what these chicks starting or things that can always use extra funding so i'm gonna say check it out i'll probably mentioned this on a future episodes but i wanted to get out there now since it's such kicked stars kind of time so all right and now for episode forty six [noise] <unk> [noise] welcome to congress hot spot destructed languages and the people who create them i'm george poorly i'm drawing over in wisconsin by william <unk> hello and in new jersey [noise] by one ah [noise] my <unk> teen [noise] hello [noise] uh the enemy nerd [laughter] this is my first time i love it it's not it's not haven't not yet [laughter] so we were talking about before the show mike actually weird recording this a little bit late uh uh a <unk> a couple of hours later than usual because mike ended up going to an animate convention so how did that go much it it was it was fun it was um a small enemy conventionally about an hour away and uh it was it was a lot of fun there were a lot of people in in costumes and um they did a human chess um game exhibit thing which was interesting um there were a lot of <unk> a lot of nights are uh art work there and a lot of people had a lot of time in their costumes and their performance isn't [noise] what have you um and it was a lot of fun i look forward to going to um the other one and uh you know you're going to bigger one where i could see more than a little more time there uh we got a little bit rained out so um but it was fun it was a good experience [noise] okay that's cool [noise] [noise] william what'd you do this weekend [noise] you know i'm allowing myself to be deceived by the weather and planes into pots and did yard work very exciting stuff [laughter] [noise] yeah i i'm also getting really cranky about um <unk> new books because there are a lot of really terrible articles in the media who [noise] who don't understand the point is making um which is making me <unk> [noise] [noise] this <unk> this disappear war stuff just sent me to the root cause he's saying exactly the opposite uh which is that culture determines language not the other way mhm oh get over it you know [laughter] [noise] that's fine <unk> their stuff there's all kinds of stuff involved it's kind of like uh that one psychological experiment where they had people ah shock somebody to trust them uh everybody's sites that as an example of people being suggest well by authority but actually when you look at what the all the various experiments they run it's actually the opposite conclusion oh yeah yeah what what it is an example of a it's a study you can't do any more [laughter] yeah that's true that's true you can't really do that because of the uh ethical concerns around it but yeah yeah let's just talk about do you think that's a good idea oh i thought well they didn't actually shock people though right right right yeah it was actors but i think there was old radio lab episode um i'll see if i can track it back down that explain actually all the experiments they did and how that how what people think it means is not actually what it actually met but anyway that's not language related so let's talk about something to do with con lying and we have a somewhat different topic uh style topic than what we've done recently this is [noise] um less of a hardcore linguistics topic and blow it involves a little bit and more of an artistic a question of artistic uh style and stuff we're talking about <unk> for con worlds and how different aspects of your con world um affect how ah affect language so how different aspects of culture and history and uh even geography can affect language or development of languages multiple languages and uh william you you said you were going to focus mostly on like historical on geographical yep right yeah i'm thinking about this i mean there's so many things that inventing a world and all that we've already touched on social things <unk> things like the family structure all of that so i'm wondering really focused on um basic things like geography and sort of in general how historical linguistics can work in a large mhm so rather than the history of particular small language how did they work across large chunk <unk> that's really with my focus and thinking about that because i [noise] you're not <unk> mhm mhm [noise] i i'm probably the most uh con were older of all of us but i have not done [noise] i have yet to really hunker down and really do multiple languages for uh single con world i have done several different sketches and my um <unk> sort of multi purse world but mostly i've i've uh develop <unk> and had some work on some dialects and the others are barely just like beginning sketches okay so where do we want to start with this ah william you got a bunch of notes [noise] [noise] sure we can just sort of rip on me start from the go from there [noise] that um so i get the first question is where are your mountain ranges and that sort of proxy for where or your major geographic barrier [noise] [noise] <unk> sorts of things are going to separate one group of people from another group of people which will allow their languages she become different overtime so much this mountain ranges but mountain ranges large rivers just <unk> you know all sorts of <unk> people from interacting mhm basically natural borders where would you draw on natural bore borders in your world right [noise] um and [noise] you know how <unk> is your society how easy is it to get across the mountain range do they normally get across the mountain range [noise] <unk> all that stuff so that the thing that interests me in terms of making a realistic language and where to start with some straight most of the time unless you're deep into the mississippi history you have a group of people move someplace else there may already be people there mhm and you know they might either objects to the people coming in they might be overwhelmed by the people coming in or they might all get along and the cultures might merge [noise] but but certainly the assumption that new group of people come in they have for whatever reason superior numbers or technology they win their language <unk> there's gonna be lots of local <unk> that's gonna be absorbed into the intruding language [noise] [noise] um [noise] things like words plants that only occurred locally uh-huh um words for technology for relating to those plant that only occur locally [noise] place names are really big big one mhm so from their homes sometimes it doesn't have to be like those things are certain to happen but i think it doesn't really have to be local stuff because um i know that spanish has some of the only things we know about pre celtic liberia and languages are loan words that are in spanish which includes like criminal dog so it doesn't have to be local but probably the local stuff is more likely to <unk> get uh borrowed mhm right [noise] so for example in ancient greek [noise] there are a bunch of substrate there's a large substrate vocabulary in fact um pretty much any word ending an insult [noise] is it seems to be from the substrate language any quiz place things like corn and [noise] before the show make and i were talking apparently elaborate just want to be or things like highest mhm um do you think you <unk> yeah <unk> um i live in wisconsin where we had city names like milwaukee and accountable [laughter] mhm [noise] so <unk> we've we borrowed a bunch of native american terms for local floor in front of like raccoons and such and must rats and so hard yeah [noise] yeah <unk> that's a good example and reading not specifically wisconsin but i'm <unk> it happens all over america any place local foods and animals names may be adopted sledding useful to think about you know i got my <unk> my people are here my languages here but who was there before them if anyone [noise] and what words might be and what what their local physical culture [noise] so a lot of the words in the greek world relating to sailing and great cultivate shouldn't are also from the substrate languages mm oh okay right [laughter] did the people who invaded grease who are we now called the great <unk> great came from atlanta blocks away oh yes now it came from <unk> from industry river valley but no i <unk> i got a question <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] um i was gonna say what as far as a language um assimilating or basically just um adding these uh the other languages too it is <unk> how much of the existing languages are corporate like for example english i know i took um a lot of things from latin that nothing has certain word came from the dramatic people and then as an with some friends that are certain words and it was just a crazy kinda my eyeball languages [noise] um right yeah and but then uh my i was gonna say from the the when the roman empire was around did they just sort of squash all those or does it still accumulate some of that or what's the situation yeah english is a great big mess mhm mhm so you had said <unk> pre in the european people and then the <unk> came in and then the romans came in and they left and vocabulary and technology word but then they got kicked out [noise] and then dramatic tribes came in and took over and pretty much pushed the <unk> north and west so whales and earn in scotland effect liquid scotland or or ireland um the celtic language spoken in scotland is actually <unk> ireland <unk> really yeah i did um anyway um yeah scottish daily start it goes back to ireland or goes through ireland [noise] um [noise] i bet i bet if you tell a scot that that <unk> well we met i didn't know they might know [laughter] they might not it's not going to hurt they might know they might not [laughter] it might not care um and then norwegian vikings speaking french invaded [laughter] [noise] [laughter] um in the english [laughter] where the <unk> so english is a god awful mess i <unk> i suppose if you were a really busy calling or you could do something like that but i can't think about that <unk> question it's all a question of history you you see this in other places where you've had multiple invasion i know that spain has sort of a similar issue is that there were pre celtic people's <unk> came and then the romans came and monday stayed but also the arabs took over for a little bit and there's not much arabic loan we're so actually it it was it was north african speaking arabic yeah north africa and speaking of it that's true [laughter] yeah so it's this happens in <unk> and it probably happens in places other than europe but uh that's the other example but i'm familiar with snow when i was getting too and i think we were coming around to this was that if it's a hostile takeover are you more likely are less likely to <unk> uh uh maybe an even blending the two languages or is it more like when someone takes over <unk> in a hospital manner [noise] perhaps they either outlawing uh speaking of the native language or they strive to perhaps eradicate if i mean <unk> [noise] you know you can't tell you don't know the joke about china is everyone who invades becomes chinese within a few generations [laughter] okay china has to you know well established deep history complicated political culture [noise] and the mongols invaded and then they forgot <unk> chinese and they and she was invaded and then they forgot man shoo [laughter] to the point like manage the demand true languages are merely extinct any nearly <unk> right and actually one of my sample or something that we can talk about it later so there's that but then you have a situation like australia we're all of the america's where people come they bring horrible diseases <unk> will die off oh and then they take over politically and <unk> you don't need to in that situation make the concerted effort destroyed language will happen on it so yeah <unk> whether <unk> yeah <unk> it it will given enough time nope however um there were a concerted effort to to destroy native american languages too so uh some of them that could survive her a long time i ended up being seriously hurt by some of the ah the english schools and such yeah yeah the the english goes where they took the kids are way far away from their parents and and the most exciting yeah right and i think that would simply and attempts to make them assimilate that was not a deliberate language policy i don't think as much i mean that was part of it but not say mhm mhm i mean you have situations like france oh which we think it was one country now used to be lots of little countries and during the twelve or thirteen hundred and she had the catholic church and the northern french team got together to take over the south of france so that they went first of all get rid of a horrible era ticks and to take over a lot of plant mhm uh-huh which overtime has effectively she'll problems all <unk> minority languages there even though they do mhm mhm [noise] so i don't think and then we can trust us the chinese situation so i think that if you're <unk> you could go either way you could have leaders come in in in promulgate language not their own for example the language of the income empire which <unk> not because you can can spoke catch <unk> because it already existed as a useful they were friends mhm mhm [noise] so <unk> actually the spanish actually maintained it for a little bit and they maintain <unk> for a little bit as well the same <unk> exactly yeah before they they eventually got to the point where they could they could just promote just spanish right exactly use if it's useful to promote another language than you are going to do that and various empires and the tigers you faded area we're happy to use you know <unk> as <unk> regardless of what they spoke and in the same way persian was he's the mongols mhm mhm mhm empires if they're using so any history you can imagine [noise] can be justified with actual real life human experience i think an important thing here is when you are building all your languages don't just considered the point of history that you're focusing on but since <unk> the whole historical time line up to that point [noise] because all those interactions and up building into what the situation now ends up being <unk> [noise] simply matter how much time in brain power you have to determine how deep you wanna go mhm that's true you know um i mean that's sounds like it's a lot of work you you you you you can sort of prioritize and and think about how much you want to think about all of that stuff but i think in general you want to think about what has occurred over your <unk> especially if you're doing this this historically then you want to think about the different influences but you know it it does depend on how much work you want to put into it to make it perfect sure and i'm really just focusing on things to think about if you're going to go that way yeah mhm so here's the the next thing that sort of interesting and made me a little counter and she would [noise] [noise] how long have the people who might have made it into your area than there mhm if they had been there a very very long time you expect greater language diversity between home between all of those people that originally were speaking the same language you expect a great diversity of mutually incomprehensible languages descended from that now does that require that they have been separated because <unk> it's it's uh all of these uh can speak with the internet from the very beginning yeah yeah i'm <unk> i'm assuming that they're not communicating with people thousands of miles away easily [laughter] [noise] um mhm so for example the semitic languages in china and what we would call chinese cover a vast area and are by historical standards quite on differentiating they're all obviously relating to each other mhm [noise] versus they're very very similar they're very soon versus all of the language is uh australia say who are huge leaders or the you know doesn't <unk> doesn't distinct <unk> language families <unk> on taiwan mm [laughter] um [noise] amount of this right all of those austin asian languages mutually comprehensible vast amounts of uh diversity versus polynesian which is quite a margin now here's a um i know uh just phone question um does it <unk> it's the people in an area say our literate does that affect how <unk> how much blending the two languages will they be more or less because they can see and be exposed to each other more or if they're less letter or they don't have written form is it more or less likely to see that kind of london you know what i mean [noise] yeah um i'm not sure i think some people mhm will very strongly assert that writing has no effect unspoken are very minimal effect on long term historical changes mhm i'm not sure i mind that i think you're <unk> you could make an argument i <unk> yeah i mean it's your it's your <unk> your on your <unk> you have well justified in either decision i think [noise] writing may not have much of an impact on long term linguistic change but you will have a written registered that will be somewhat more conservative than smoking right so [noise] i was just thinking well maybe what made you think about it i don't know much about the native american american languages [noise] but it seems like they're very different from one another um and i don't know if that because i don't know if they really had a rating system um as opposed to say uh well i guess the lines of europe where a lot of <unk> maybe came from the roman empire and they just broke off of the same thing on the same kind of [noise] dynamic currently in the americans that that was over there and if that was driven by literacy or not no i mean europe once had the language diversity that america had mhm [noise] mhm [noise] solomon waves of invaders <unk> that [noise] [noise] <unk> it's hard to say if um if literacy is the big thing but um i would say that okay who was georgia about anything [laughter] um no okay [noise] okay you are right in that north america excluding mexico and all of south america there were no writing systems in pre colonial times [noise] but i think it has more to do with um the more isolated communities can be the more diverse the linguistic situation will be and as much as people did er sort of travel around through the river systems of the america i think that individual tribes we're somewhat sort of insulated from each other and that they didn't have uh they didn't have like sailing technology they couldn't go really far distances at least not everyone went really long distances so [noise] um so uh a good <unk> go ahead no go how'd you say so good example of this is the not the net languages or that the baskin languages which is somewhere strict uh-huh the homeland beach languages is in north western canada and alaska tremendous diversity of languages mutually <unk> maybe something like higher than really far or an twin getting all of the [noise] for some reason [noise] around a thousand years ago people started moving south so you have a few closely related um baskin languages in california in oregon and then in the american southwest you'd have large spaces covered by speakers <unk> and <unk> and a few other southern basket languages which are obviously closely related <unk> mhm so again <unk> of university up at the top where people have been living for a long time and they don't need to go very far because they are accustomed to see the big in the environment [noise] they're driving mhm and then for whatever reason they move south um a small population than results in very similar languages spreading or a large area almost like a linguistic founder effect exactly exactly now um king of um similarities and the language and and perhaps [noise] um [noise] you know one coming from the other um this i had a <unk> i just thought that was coming from out a little bit on a little bit different but um as far as sound distribution goes like i noticed that when uh i think george just mentioned some limes that had the sounds of that the uh like <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] um it seems like a lot of languages north america have that but i haven't heard that found a great many other places um or another example is that the <unk> uh seem to have a lot more click related sounds then <unk> elsewhere [noise] while they're <unk> they're geographic distribution of sounds and not really the languages yes we are talking bounce too aerial attacks <unk> ah actually talking about the click [noise] so the cliques seem to have originated in just one particular language family in africa isn't it william yet um the <unk> most awesome well ah close i think is one of the family i'd know not <unk> it's not actually that night ban too [laughter] [laughter] oh and that's the thing but i'm too as a larger language family that spreads over all of <unk> <unk> almost all of a sub to her in africa and a few of those ban two languages that have been clinton close contact with the click languages have developed clicks as an area effect but they they are the <unk> [noise] tons of such a rare sound it basically only occurred in a couple of different places in africa doesn't occur anywhere else in the world [noise] um yeah so uh <unk> an aerial an aerial effect is the tendency of languages that live next to each other for a long time to start borrowing things from each other [noise] mhm so um to get her kinds of sound <unk> an obvious one <unk> <unk> even if people are traveling a lot they might be talking with their neighbors even if they're speaking different languages so idioms might travel [noise] culture might cause idioms travels so for example <unk> most of the america's <unk> pretty much west of the mississippi and coyote tales like <unk> or a store like stories about <unk> [laughter] um <unk> and coyote and he <unk> he's always at stricter but he plays sort of different roles <unk> you know you do differently in different cultures but [noise] you know huge area that he covers <unk> even surprisingly low level grammar featuring can be borrowed intolerant so <unk> after centuries living next to tense obsessed language is spanish english it appears to be in the process of creating a past tense for itself other many non speakers um about a hundred thousand okay it's in the healthiest of all of the language is a native language is america mhm <unk> the united states uh-huh [noise] so you were talking about that lateral <unk> and plus sound yes any language that passes through the pacific north west is likely to acquired that mhm [noise] um so we're <unk> <unk> <unk> that's from my <unk> mexico valley mexico [noise] wants to <unk> that came from further north they did they came from hardly america probably arizona texas area yeah and uh yeah so they probably were in a group that pass through there and then they traveled like <unk> in like the fourteen hundreds uh that sounds about right yeah they were in mexico for a few centuries before that yeah but that's one night they set up as take 'em prior and every time they sort of they sort of burst onto the scene so [noise] what was that going [noise] well when we were talking about <unk> and um how the bar from each other [noise] now get kinda getting to um the more <unk> um <unk> if you have a language that has say it's all across the whole continent but the language on the east side and very vastly different from the west side where do you consider it to be different languages and i think a languages dialect the army i've heard before [noise] yeah you know i always avoid that question i just don't care i just don't give a damn what the difference you know language in a dialect is mhm [noise] but [noise] but is something that can be interesting to deal with this doesn't necessarily affect your con lying so much as it affects other as part something in your calm i can affect the world so there is a technical test for it yeah i mean <unk> yeah the <unk> test but because so many political complications occur and you have things like <unk> continue and stuff yeah and it ends up being a political question which brings to mind something i put in my notes <unk> [noise] how do so this is more of a question of what how what's the language is position in the <unk> how the conrail affects language how do people in your world perceive this language so do they think of the language is a dialect or another language and that has any sort of prestigious value or is it marginalized it's there's some questions you <unk> you need to answer in your con world about that part mhm right right so how it's view it a lot to people lots and lots of people care very deeply about whether or not cantonese chinese or dialects and languages i know [laughter] the <unk> [noise] you can decide in your corner with how that goes [noise] so um there's a really great example for aerial affects and then we can move on from that that i i like <unk> um there is in california two languages that are in the <unk> family that is they are related to the gumption languages of um well <unk> <unk> uh north and eastern american <unk> nothing language <unk> [noise] um there's all <unk> all duncan languages in california yes they're two of them they came for this hands is what i like to say [laughter] that's just like surprising right they're not <unk> they're they're part of a family that tired it's called <unk> 'cause obviously they let <unk> [noise] but so compared to the ugly languages other languages had blood alive that his <unk> stops would eat their easter neighbors do not have [noise] they have globalize residence which is very much a california thing <unk> residents yet like [noise] uh <unk> uh <unk> uh <unk> it sounds like a tricky actually deletion of em and w. i know certain thing mhm there's a global released [noise] um and it had to [noise] the lateral ooh [noise] so [laughter] right just just by living in california next to all of those friends um the iraq language acquired he's additional teachers that are typical of language to the area [noise] we <unk> which is another language from the area did not <unk> i mean it did get the the <unk> pass on the objective [noise] no i know texas for me i'm watching my figure now now now i remember that you you you mentioned this in a previous <unk> some time right so the whole point of this is if you're going to do your congress you got different language families that are bumping up against you get to each other or you have people moving into other areas <unk> mine starts they will <unk> might going to they will start to emulate teachers and share features and the language there next to [noise] find this is this is another thing where depending on what work you've done on your con world you can sort of figure out how the language was if you've done things like migration maps <unk> world then you probably want to take those into account when you're figuring out the historical linguistics surely when these people got here and how long have you been there a lot of things like that before i thought of using like if i like i couldn't decide between two different um different ways of doing something i thought maybe using the two different um languages and having thinking about how like once are in one place and then it moves so it kept these things but then a <unk> another aspect and it was kind of an accent [noise] [noise] yeah it's a it's an interesting way justify radical changes to a language particular language language family mhm if you're going to go that route right if you watched at each directed confidence too elvis [noise] <unk> type of tokens elves got stuck in seattle uh for a wife [laughter] [laughter] i came across the great they came across the the grave and then they found lots of sand mothers to live with him and here we are in the states yeah what what is what is what what what would be the art equipment of ah america i have no idea [noise] no i was going to <unk> um did other these kinds of um ariel sex between <unk> well they're related languages already so i don't yeah but i mean like it was there i know that um i think um in terms of the grammar i think um it seems like quite yet there's a lot more <unk> i have a lot longer word than a lot more collected <unk> local relax a little trip that with the er drifting based on what they were made next do i know <unk> did a lot of work on them well talk and the thing is with token is he focus mainly on the ah the elvis <unk> family what does that i don't know if he named the family form like but uh <unk> or something like that and that was all uh i don't know but he only did a little bit of work on things like vowel are and ah the ah the <unk> western us and uh <unk> he mostly focused on the elvis language so i don't know if he really did enough of other languages to really be able to put in substrate affects an aerial affects some <unk> [noise] yeah he was really more just straight up historical changes mhm yeah [noise] and <unk> anyone we <unk> there before the <unk> [noise] you don't so i think that those were the first yeah like even though but like the ads are older but the elves taught the ants how to talk right mhm so and then we're the <unk> come from was that just uh i'm so i presume maybe they were there at the same time but a different area like under the mountains [noise] i don't know i don't know about what the lord and the doors are <unk> i'd have to learn more about uh tokens world to know about that all i notice the doors have like a secret language so not much of it's is figured figures in the books ooh speaking of multiple languages on and when one location i think i've heard of an area and i forget much more about but [noise] that where they have <unk> the one language is used for when you're speaking about very sacred things and very um holy or very weird topic and the other language is used for just day to day things <unk> have you got to start or something like that [noise] not <unk> per se mhm um i thought that i heard that somewhere it's not like um [noise] there are times there are lots of different cultures languages that uh getting associated with um certain religions and become what they call literature called languages like nowadays lines <unk> what's the catholic church latin as you right on the masses right latin with uh you know latin and the catholic church there's sanskrit and a lot of uh buddhist um areas <unk> more common polly is more comfortable to spin yeah okay um what was the one language that like semi constructed that <unk> or something somebody used oh well there's two varieties of that they're not really sending constructed one is a great deal like sanskrit and then one is uh just oh urging was actively [noise] oh okay so the best and and [noise] darn it i can't remember the old i think it's just like old iranian lobby middle <unk> yeah yeah that's an <unk> i think that yeah possibly okay well um but in in any case you can have a language become associated with religion in such a way that it becomes [noise] like even long after the language is dead the priest still end up using it in the case of latin latin um marion <unk> marion or or like in las vegas or looking harry potter hello mormons open the door [laughter] i have no idea what that me [noise] it's just about <unk> [noise] anyway [noise] where where does it come from like <unk> or something no i think <unk> um [noise] i think she got that like she took some of the [noise] incantation from like it's a lot and like ah killing her <unk> her i think came from africa <unk> <unk> she took a lot of different things not <unk> i was kind of she kind of played with words a little bit and kind of <unk> made up some of those but uh yeah [noise] but yet i don't know [noise] magical languages gets into a whole other thing of if you use magic in your con world than what what do you do that could be a whole other topic that i don't know if this group wants to talk about <unk> usually i've created one yeah i <unk> i mean i don't know but real languages can get cold for that too so [noise] for the ancient um mediterranean world the greeks regardless <unk> everything's <unk> so ancient read magic has lots of <unk> british that's supposed to sound like egypt and oh and then for the room and the <unk> at a certain spooky reputation mhm um and then as as their culture and so deeply intertwined with greet culture that degree edited magic ultimate into um [noise] the every place the romans huh [noise] i'm resting yeah yeah the last thing i wanted to talk about sort of migrating people's [noise] is we've got people who move because the weather's bad we've got people who move because they're irritating people who moved into their original <unk> [laughter] um and in certain political situations you might get forced migration [noise] there's no reason for them to be in their acquaint language spoken in wisconsin but because we had a bunch of oneida shipped to green bay we had an ear quaint language spoken in my state [noise] um earlier in the show george mentioned that man's use almost dead the only place it <unk> in the middle of she'd young way to the rest of their own ground because an <unk> [laughter] well um [laughter] [noise] <unk> ah yeah well and and for a reference man the man choose actually come from the north east of china yeah so that's a long migration in a long migration [noise] and they invaded china and became chinese [noise] except for the guy you're shipped off to the desert as the fog [noise] yet [laughter] ah so um mentors obviously i just beautiful i love it i just wanted to mentioned a couple other things that you might want to talk about um like we said here culturally specific items are not necessarily important although culturally specific items for a substrate language probably will get loan into the super straight language [noise] um what this could be a whole topic on its own but what kind of literally literary styles have developed there's a lot of [noise] a lot of idioms come out of literature like in in english there are so many things that we don't even remember <unk> coming out of shakespeare or out of the king james bible but i came from those [laughter] [laughter] once i saw a movie version of wood and on my way since teenage girl was complaining about how many cliches were in it like it's like this scenario typical thing that would just say is double trouble boiling bubble that's from my back [noise] [laughter] oh my gosh i tried it was around all that but now like everybody uses that plagiarism [noise] uh no no it's just uh uh now i'm a cliche indian culture it's um yeah i'm i'm the same thing happens in in a while when china like almost all of the time you come from some story or some literary text or some some historical essay that training you know a thousand years earlier [noise] for people who don't know a <unk> is uh typically four syllable proper like phrase [noise] there used to long island we use it <unk> it's it's it's like an idiot but it's it's usually it might be <unk> grammatical and classical but not grammatical when normal in ah <unk> current mandarin and uh [noise] it's it's usually some sort of abbreviation or phrase from some patriots source [noise] um and another thing i wanted to mention really quickly was um what is the name of your language [noise] and this is important is it and is it an ended man that is is it a name that those are these people started calling themselves <unk> something that somebody else started calling them and maybe they adopted maybe they still called themself something else and why is that the case i think that's sort of involving what the historical context of what other cultures exist can be important like um and also if you're talking about multiple languages what do they call the other languages because [noise] and uh the other people because i believe um early on in english history and um some people were calling the the uh anglo saxon something based on angles and some of 'em were calling him something based on sex them but because of whoever they happen to have more more contact with [noise] right now um [noise] well see i'm on dimension i don't know um i'm jumping in here [noise] but when we were talking about um loan we're coming up the language and power that or how it's affected by um when the borders are open up or when they start coming contact each other and physical uh boundaries um japanese i think there's a certain <unk> certain chronological point but you have a lot of words that seems will come from like western things like like beer and car jeans and all these things uh japanese just kind of uses cognitive <unk> leave i believe a lot of that comes from the post war period because yeah because of the more of a plan and the huge u._s. involvement in japan mhm [noise] i think before that like even like western sciences they they made their own words by corning them from chinese characters mhm i'm william does i'm not really have any sort of loans from english or is it are you okay um it has um <unk> <unk> book okay it has <unk> <unk> for bad [noise] like what you where if you work for the company that was there [noise] um uh yeah and then for their various flying contraptions it was <unk> which has the not the word for sky oh and then <unk> which i don't have that time so it became <unk> [noise] i'm from uh try to limit how many of those there are so how 'bout for things and see like guns for example how did they handle those new concept there no we have not dealt with that yet and from her hesitate to answer some questions <unk> james cameron um okay 'cause that that's [noise] [noise] [noise] well that is interesting because all of the things that you mentioned william are things that the <unk> v. would not have had before rant um who mike what we're going to say i was gonna say when i work on mine i usually think about what kind of culture they came from course and then if there's something in today's world 'cause i do try to make it so money i'll be able to use it in a journal or on a website but if there's something that is somewhat alien to dot com culture con world i think about there's either way they can make that by using that what words they have and <unk> internally so to speak [noise] or maybe there's a um a borrowing or a changing or i uh <unk> uh whatever what that is and they bring it in from like a cognitive and maybe if they <unk> <unk> it might be like you know <unk> if you have greenish will but you know basically <unk> not neither concept to happen um <unk> <unk> <unk> it's it's really hard to tell what <unk> laying it's going to do mhm uh-huh when the romans learned about the greeks they were completely overwhelmed by greek culture [noise] and they started borrowing tremendous numbers or greek words because it's very very very easy injury to make a new word compound really simple mhm like german oh <unk> latin is much much less happy to do that [noise] [noise] so cicero pretty much single handed lee worked hard to to produce local latin tabulate you described things mhm as much as possible um they were one or two terms did they completely freaked him out and they came out with reading we're um examples for [noise] so we have a language like japanese which is very very happy to adopt form words english is pretty happy to adopt one word [noise] novel home on the other hand it's tremendously resistance <unk> extra things [noise] um muslim pleasant ah <unk> like have a word for computers it's like thinking metal [noise] or something well the not the word for computer is in [noise] in middle brain and chinese is electric right right right i mean they're they're very sweet i need to chinese is another one that is uh very resistant to <unk> possibly for different reasons than alcohol is [noise] um partly because it's really hard to um to trans litter rate foreign fanatic loans into characters [noise] yeah well i was on a tactics don't allow that kind of combination sometimes right right yeah i would love to see the idea of trance substantiate action in chinese or we can talk about that <unk> i'm sure it could look it up yeah yeah there's <unk> i mean religious <unk> present a really big challenge [noise] um and anyone who works at the summer is linguistics now right they produce all of this magnificent linguistic research because they want to translate the bible into the local languages all of that yeah [noise] but how china did did borrow some uh i think sanskrit words <unk> through buddhist teachings like uh <unk> it sounds absolutely <unk> totally different now but they uh were the ah chinese word <unk> meaning buddha does come from the word <unk> however it's pronounced sure sure [noise] um [noise] my favorite example and in the modern world is arabic you you become muslim then you have to learn arabic and so you know you might find a limited <unk> named too right i know it's not required <unk> no yeah american americans do um [noise] that sort of that sort of an identity thing rather than a religious requirement [noise] um [noise] the point is someone that language may be translated but for the most part in islam i think they stick with the arabic turner's mhm [noise] um and sometimes frank you that might be easier and christian missionary work just to stick to um an english translation [noise] not a whole christians say um i forgot the word [noise] [noise] [noise] they combine two words one of which is english god oh okay um they use the problem is is that the native spiritual <unk> um sounds chew it reminds them too much of the previous non christian religion i can't find the word um is it then i worked for god no it means to [noise] only people 'cause they say that the word um well the question on he was one of the amount of her word forgotten that says they don't <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> not a whole bible is god's <unk> oh i don't know if that when you look at [noise] [noise] right i know what i'm thinking during mangled that particular anyway we don't need to go to the point is [noise] borrowing between languages you never know what's gonna happen some language is like it some languages hate it some will do a mix mhm [noise] and so we'll do like english and borrow it but still perverse it where the some of the language that came from like like what's that mean right french nothing on i mentioned something really quick lawyer this this this has absolutely nothing to do with anything but i remember so chinese used to have one word for the third person pronoun top one character for it um [noise] which uh which is just a a um it's uh man radical with some fanatic [noise] when they came across uh i think it's when they came across european languages they tried to imitate it and made a feminine version and neuter version [noise] uh the phone and version just had the the female radical [noise] i have seen also in a chinese christian church there is also one that they developed to refer to god or jesus that uses the ritual radical huh you could have some really crazy stuff happen i've heard that chinese <unk> like the idea for a form of lines you was from that kind of excellence also i don't know if that case or not because i know in um bridal noses mean mean actually comes from a contraction of me man yeah but that's kinda like the boy we and we're all you may be i don't know if that's related or not i don't know they say did actually also have warm and <unk> which were forms similar really <unk> um [noise] i remember listening to something [noise] but this is funny but anyway this is just writing stuff [noise] mhm yeah this is purely writing this has nothing to do with because i always i always argue that it's all one word because chinese in speaking english constantly confused tea and she and there's a <unk> possibly a fanatic reason for that too but uh i think that they can <unk> they think of it subconsciously as one word but they write it differently and they were pretty good at it [noise] mhm [noise] yeah um [noise] but uh getting i think we've wanted a little bit from the <unk> thing but um that's okay wandering fun but speaking yeah <unk> <unk> down here um i don't know the idea of how quickly you can move i think we mentioned this other how quickly you can travel or <unk> kind of pays the life of that but if you think about your <unk> culture and maybe in terms of just how how people are or how they're reality is that might help inform how you <unk> maybe break a time or how if they think you know it's a short time or if there's a different world four and five minutes from now or if they're different world for um [noise] if if they're really rural people or they're really <unk> laid back and you know somebody get back to you and five day that's like wow you're so quick then maybe there'll be there is i don't know if the doctor the case but maybe that would reflect in the language where you know you wouldn't have [noise] um maybe so much um [noise] where are you from <unk> time period [noise] but you might have one more trend five days one word for in two weeks a month for an amount i don't know they're just ideas i don't know we'd have to figure that out but uh i <unk> i think we'd have to look at research to figure out whether that actually happens anywhere well like i know um in um like uh uh william in <unk> in native north american languages is there um the remote passing the enemy right part huh i know someone who just had that but i don't know what [noise] oh you never know some languages may have no time no ten smart you know others may have three or four distinguishing three or four different <unk> different times you just never know you <unk> yeah i thought that what i mean honestly i think honestly that really the uh the the the geographical and the cultural realities don't really affect the grammar <unk> much the only exception but i have heard of is the more isolated culture is the more morphological early complex the language is which i know most of our listeners will already know this because it's something that people in the forums will pounce on immediately but you know that's an important thing that the cave men that have the really simple language of grunts is a ridiculous true because it's actually totally the opposite [noise] right [noise] right i mean this is you know maybe we can get dan effort to come on [laughter] i doubt it [laughter] yeah he he he did a review um <unk> um book when it came out a few years ago was frankly a little bit condescending to come up here so i don't think he'd come out [noise] but his argument is that culture does in fact change language down to the level of grammar <unk> he doesn't okay it does mhm huh or and [noise] anyway do you think that's what a cover we gotten sort of for a few here um you know we've <unk> really far and we've talked about a little bit about a lot of things that we could do whole episodes on i think we do a whole episode on loan words honestly oh um [laughter] um but i think we need to actually move on to this has gone way this discussion has gone pretty long <unk> why don't we go ahead and talk about our featured con lying today which is he going to be [laughter] <unk> [noise] it was <unk> [noise] and ah so <unk> is a is one of the tunnel languages it belongs to the western language family and spokane <unk> negative two thousand [noise] why pee on the <unk> step that stuff makes sense and i caught up but uh [noise] basically it's very um so looking at it all right [noise] <unk> starting was phonology has voice <unk> that's interesting i i just wanted it mentioned we pick this language we did it another kind of language in the past but uh-huh and the whole economy project is about precisely this <unk> [noise] seems useful to grab that one [noise] although we're just got to talk about the language it's not obvious that there is a huge amount of um some of these topics maybe a year but unfortunately i <unk> i couldn't really find much about how it fits into the world all of them the fact that he has um basically historical sound changes from pryor western <unk> um mhm yes and uh those are kind of interesting mhm [noise] so um so it's hurt a western like uh like uh the mother language which these other uh are kind of languages develop some of their all their several there's there's several different languages in arizona and basically they the people have just sort of um made languages from those so there's several different language families now and i just actually extremely diverse because basically the whole point of is you would you join the <unk> on a project and you make a language so it's yeah and and they're they're focusing on this is rather small part of the world so that part of their world has like hundreds of languages already [noise] but that's not completely irrational <unk> it's not unusual it's not it's not that unusual at least i don't know much about the the technology level but they've gotten up to what the common so much probably fairly realistic to have that many languages that's just kind of interesting that they they decided to go that far [noise] it's kind of interesting how how it developed that way mhm mm [noise] one nice thing about all of these is they have set texts that all intend to translate well that's nice <unk> which lets you first do comparative <unk> see what they've done i sometimes get the impression that uh kind of people have an agenda [noise] and they take the pro the language they say i'm going to make [noise] swahili [laughter] or or you know something else and they say what we need to make things happen [noise] i dunno i noticed this language has lots of <unk> yeah i was just looking at that we've weird um boundaries yeah like the the call <unk> internal individual uh it it's both knowledge scared of <unk> visually and one's own pots and emotions that's an interesting <unk> whether that wins easiest for me number two which is oral and nasal knowledge that if i take the example sentence of course is charming i smell that you've <unk> luckily [noise] um [noise] three touch and here um that's that that does seem odd you drink it would have it's um [noise] <unk> with mission because i mean i i mean and get it maybe it was just the way i'm thinking about the break up but in terms of proximity that you need to have for this ah perception to occur touched would be like you you're literally ride against the maybe the same as taste and then i guess if and of course it's not my baby so i you know want to cross too <unk> <unk> this but um you know and then here in sight for in my mind selling see from far away maybe broken up some totally a friends um internal away so yeah well i think [noise] go ahead well i think uh direct to have an actual correct me if i'm wrong william usually if there is any differentiation usually hearing vision and then hearing or the first things to be differentiated 'cause they're the most important senseless to human beings <unk> that's exactly right if you're going to distinguish modes of sense mhm you didn't evidence will system site will separate from the restaurant with hearing it very rare but existing possibility mhm i'm not aware of uh single language that have to touch evidence <unk> yeah there there is um a small one there so we are right we had yes we're <unk> the the the the uh differentiating different senses is fairly rare and the first place i mean it's the right thing and it is it er the er the speakers of the human yeah yeah probably i think i think um i think that uh kind of his all humans [noise] if there were a society that wasn't that perhaps had uh they were you know have better sense of smell or like uh if they had similar to you know could proceed pheromones or some sort of uh like transmit messages by smell or old factory me i'll just add a lot too sure and one of the first [noise] languages you guys did george was one for oh <unk> yeah the very first were i think they were <unk> they they were sort of like where it will but i don't think they were called while we're rules for [noise] uh <unk> and i remember they had the smell is important in their language and that guys actually recently done uh talked about i guess a specific dialect cold running orders and he went into where they actually had mound classes based on smell so uh so that's that gets into a sort of an alien languages but back to <unk> <unk> um yeah these these guys i'm sure are human but they just have some some fairly rare um <unk> which is fine there's nothing wrong with having rare um [noise] i like they also have a speculative slash fictional of an actual [noise] that's almost like an <unk> go <unk> and it's a zero mark again tremendously tremendously type logically weird yeah it's uh you know you you expect the direct to beat zero marked right right um uh they have how many noun classes like seven of them apes huh oh no no no eight eight seven seven seven and eight and no no <unk> <unk> by the way all mountains inflict not just for case absolutely versus arguments but also for and ability and the <unk> yeah it is but uh oh lead but only in the singular and the absolute <unk> is that distinction of parents [noise] yes [noise] but see the ad ability has some odd um some rather odd things because you can make land and a pool and just make means arable land it sounds almost like a radical in terms of like in chinese wage <unk> what's the radical out and like you have um [noise] you know horse <unk> change it's like a stun radical has something to do stone about it so maybe it's some <unk> around you know i don't think they not change is i don't think it's that much because that's that's the future of the rating system and it's more [noise] getting an <unk> to for you to figure out what the character means oh that's what i was <unk> much more organic like the horse inevitable and <unk> i can see that being transparent particularly these people are called the horse people saw a little bit about how the world affects the how the <unk> language [noise] ah if they are uh primarily a horse culture they probably eat horses as well as ride them so that might make sense to them to describe them as <unk> [noise] but the land is a little bit more of a stretch because you have to think of okay well edible land means that you can grow crops on it [noise] unless they do they refer to do there for the crops <unk> heartland because if it's like you know the land arm then maybe that's the ah oil it says here is that <unk> which is the <unk> <unk> which is the um the edible form of land means <unk> so i don't think it mean that they are associating with the with the corrupt but the fact that you can grow crops on it they just consider that edible [noise] and uh it might not be direct like um literally because look in spanish you know <unk> apple <unk> it's not it's it's the apple tree it's not really driven by or anything like [noise] <unk> yeah that's the point it's not it's not a hundred percent literate what what we're <unk> he actually <unk> let me read the uh the ad ability category as productive but can be idiosyncratic murder typically indicates in edible referred [noise] mhm but sometimes indicates a referral merely associated with food yeah he lay land nail hopeful wet mhm so that's all the information he gives a so basically what he's saying is it can mean that it's edible oriented or it can just mean that it's but it's a slightly different logical meaning that more associated with food i really wish we could have got this we had some scheduling problems so we couldn't get this guy on the show i wish we could have had him on the show to explain this to us but uh i think it's there's the base meaning and then there's figured of expansions to it [noise] how much work doesn't put an okay how long has been around like that in a lot of use or uh it was it mainly <unk> he <unk> he and his emails he said he just basically just produced this sketch that we have [noise] and well he calls a sketch nearly a full grammar so it was quite a few details you mean the interesting thing about the <unk> morphology is i mean <unk> it's kind of funky it <unk> it just satisfies me that the inevitable edible distinction is only made in the absolute is [noise] an hour to an <unk> typically in agents you wouldn't expect that to be at a <unk> [noise] [noise] that that does make sense you would you <unk> <unk> or <unk> doesn't really make any sense than the <unk> or i mean you can you can because we can certainly come up right you can come up with sentences where it would make sense but sort of put a typically it makes much sense and that made me happy and there are yeah the whole paradigm as regular for example those now that have [noise] <unk> are good at forums make no overt distinction between the different absolutely because that's just sending more quality work right mhm [noise] his example is low meaning men which i very much <unk> well i won't say that because ah <unk> for uh reasons that aren't evil [noise] um [noise] [noise] right um seven non classes which is again a typical of languages drive from is it put a western or they're calling it yeah yeah [noise] um well that's an interest and there's interesting of course class one is humans in other being's capable of speech so it's humans but it can also be animal in fables regards their spirits or whatever and then the ad ability <unk> figures in to the classes a little bit mhm because you have <unk> one sauce too as solid at inanimate objects sport mushy edible objects yeah which [laughter] interesting semantic arrange [noise] and there's also sort of stuff like liquids fire when uh now <unk> now here's a question would you change the class for poetic purposes or when you're just like you were talking about the winds talking to you would you use the first class or would you use it normal class i just suspect because he says animals in fables that you can do that the idea so that like you could change the class of an animal just because it happens to speak in the story [noise] mhm so um and then if you had like speak talking fruit like like veggie tales were <unk> i guess class one i would guess [noise] mm [noise] probably uh i mean that's important to know that now owns themselves do not take overt class marking mhm only the only the agreement agreement mechanics genetic quite the show up so it's pretty easy listening makes the poetic where you <unk> even more interesting because [noise] it's kind of odd to this make this makes these this class system more like the languages <unk> than like say the mental languages mm mhm yeah <unk> language is what you have the same <unk> everything right and the shape might not necessarily be the same but they're almost everything is censored a <unk> [noise] um as a consequence of these multiple kinds of classes they effectively act like um what most of us are you thinking about in genders so you have a large number of pronouns you'd have a large tape of demonstrative um uh-huh <unk> immediately looked fairly regular i think yeah but mostly i mean there's there's some yeah they're not um quest oh sorry and then i just didn't say also divert morphology more allergy morphology um i said morphology because it the the the long object class system um [laughter] you know <unk> before the show long for a long uh hard objects he ads has penis and as an example of of one of those things that could be [noise] in class five in case you can [noise] get the um the conjugation of a train to divert [noise] had to be charged mhm um <unk> you have to account for subject and object [noise] yeah i found her not every possibility is syndicated but it it <unk> it's quite the chart um yeah and and there's some some uh interesting it's not straight up regular there's some that share a form and such right [noise] um one thing that little two things on convention [noise] one of them i thought it was interesting that they had the uh an alien rule <unk> the uh basically prefix forms of the like <unk> uh <unk> second third on two <unk> two um right ah i was kinda nice [noise] well um [noise] he he makes the point that what was an innate you will distinction and put a western has been generalized in this language to all of them uh doesn't [laughter] okay um <unk> and then and that was the one thing on the other thing i was gonna mentioned while i was looking at this <unk> the the <unk> is that one of those and the news or the next hundred word that come from doing now [noise] ah being a millionaire i think is <unk> it sure looked like it says the main uh on the economy which <unk> which is uh which is a <unk> <unk> <unk> it says the name of speakers give to their cultural group was ah <unk> knew who singular on the <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah meaning horse people so well though this term could we could also be <unk> any pneumatic group [noise] <unk> um i'm sorry [noise] [noise] so i don't know wearing a mood the the language name comes from well i actually looking at it now it's our time is right after that and i when i was looking at <unk> you know it's <unk> first person uh possess or like you know team is uh our finger now <unk> must be tom so um that's probably where they go out or language or something and then it must be in and and <unk> <unk> that's an <unk> like i mean it matches it matches to [noise] to phonology it's just another important thing that i forgot to mention when i asked what's the name is the name of your language at all related to the name of the people who speak it because it doesn't have to be [noise] um oh i see it actually i'm missy means tonner language so when you're looking at the <unk> come down below em <unk> <unk> i <unk> i mean hunger language <unk> <unk> see became law somewhere when you're talking about humor um murder by itself means by all means of size away speaking of the <unk> um i was looking through it and um [noise] um so <unk> okay um and i found one word so ah i didn't really find many words that had interesting <unk> my found one uh see goo ga float down stream be crazy get carried away mhm [noise] now she <unk> <unk> <unk> but <unk> now isn't in transit up her though that's just seems interesting but you say he's floating downstream to to to me he's crazy now i'm curious if you were talking about the cat away by something like <unk> something made you that in fact i wonder if that would be like a proposition afraid of that would be uh one of those is their case and this no this is we have <unk> see go yeah is ah is a verb yeah i mean yeah but what the what would the um [noise] be taken away by something that that they had that um <unk> well i i don't know <unk> his dictionaries not that detailed so i i have no idea <unk> any anything that has to go with that [noise] i have a question about cases um and maybe willing to notice a mate george you might [noise] um i know in um <unk> i studied have been nominate of accused of languages i have not had virtually any experience with uh are going to <unk> to [noise] but um do the other cases that are in nominate accuses languages in er to sort of languages like a <unk> like a jerk data <unk> yeah like i am they can't be independent language mhm yeah it is it's <unk> <unk> the ah mom is accused of or good of absolute of alignment mhm or the the more crazy fluent s. systems inside that's uh that specifically um is talking about the use of two or three different cases for astronaut yeah uh-huh yeah they well yeah <unk> those those three the those three core roles and what cases are assigned to them [noise] but they could have could have other cases or not it just depends on the language i don't see any evidence of other cases in this particular language they said it's very calm but i don't know if that's lean towards casing or not [noise] doesn't have to yeah uh i think this one just has just absolutely of unheard of cases [noise] well i think that's right yeah we talk yeah uh-huh yeah [noise] well he's also this island and the rest is probably handled by some sort of had position [noise] yeah <unk> that's well okay well <unk> looking at um an an an example right just before three <unk> three um <unk> it comes to train the burden the agents and it'd be <unk> absolutely case so how'd you get the skin to his wife um skin is an absolute a number of give and then wife is an absolute and then there is an architect so that's um [noise] yeah and then i walked <unk> are <unk> <unk> yeah yeah not all languages um choose to distinguish indirect from direct objects mm they mean just the object [noise] or they do other things with how the bird works so that the issue never comes up what does he does one <unk> uh i walked in the forest are that are you guys do you know i mean it didn't treat explanation he one day she won't eat one is evidence geology one is the first person okay [noise] <unk> yeah i yeah um what's funny to me first of all <unk> <unk> in this language or in the <unk> which is really interesting um and that's one of those things where it's not unusual for languages but er er get an absolute or that have some element that in them or some other case rule too identical to the er get it okay <unk> descended from a language where the possessive and the <unk> like that makes sense [noise] mhm well it's surprising to me is that a trained to denver is obligatory <unk> subject an object <unk> or rather <unk> and yet they must also be broke over in the <unk> <unk> so i mean the subjects pronoun i is always used any sentence examples mhm it is definitely not program mhm which i don't know how many languages are like that that have such marking on the bird [noise] yeah [noise] um i was in terms of just that uh the marketing like the i walked in the park that was i'm like i said i don't have much experience with the er get up and you saw that sometimes they look other <unk> er get there so i walked in the forest <unk> or <unk> that is odd for me 'cause i always figured <unk> once were like um [noise] yeah <unk> <unk> it's in or get or that was lewd language the eh is treated differently from the <unk> right right and yeah hey is the agent match dot take are getting <unk> absolutely <unk> there aren't gonna current you know and then others take them split it [noise] um i suggest but you do some research it on it and make you just <unk> just make a toy language that's follows organ of absolute of [laughter] yeah i tried that i was you know you gotta figure out how to make it work and you understand it much better well i mean i did do that for a bit and then it just i didn't know um i <unk> i <unk> <unk> actual not lines with the other cases because when i got to talking about um [noise] like datas how the <unk> um the other chases people often give ah <unk> is a good example of uh surely target of language although bass 'cause a lot of other oddities in it too it's kind of hard [noise] [laughter] [laughter] um anyway um what else um i wanted to mentioned the numerals this language has base eight numerals <unk> yep yes which is extremely where i am what is not be that they say well okay [laughter] i put that uh gives you problems <unk> well um no i'm using my i'm used to dealing with basically all the time [laughter] [laughter] okay and also um ah the word for six has been eight replaced with a compound five one so [laughter] yeah i love that and he actually gives the justification that uh the uh the sound changes would have made it sound too similar to four so apparently that was a strategy to avoid that happening so mm um um um that it seems like the cardinal numbers like a fixed onto the <unk> whereas the ordinance just have a um have a uh uh uh the at the end [noise] well this is a model fires and language tend to prefix anyway so okay so that makes sense <unk> like i think i seen 'em undoing towards uh multiple <unk> by <unk> <unk> and then a dash eight <unk> uh indicating how <unk> so when you see on underneath it says she's mussolini dash colin [noise] um is that that's part of your therapy or is it being broken up in there you know he's <unk> okay yeah he was just breaking up compound so it's all um [laughter] <unk> oh okay so so like eight force fate okay i see that's an interesting way to uh form the ah the <unk> the second step him in numbers there [noise] um [noise] i don't know i don't have much else hasn't asked anti passive voice but i didn't really go out to figuring out how how <unk> how that works really um she has a nice mix of bailing see trickery some things are just changing the conjugation others or ethics is very swords mhm [noise] so we recently had talked about negotiation and scope of vacation so he's got the negative particles eight it's most neutral position is after the bird but when it particular down phrases to be negated the negative particle budget so yeah [noise] yeah anyhow also has questions being marks by a speculative as it natural and also has a particle um i like the <unk> near me near you and then <unk> like ah i like that three three eerie way <unk> [noise] <unk> a bunch of different examples for his questions to ask you how to [noise] to ask a whole bunch of different things and it's interesting because it looks like his question word sentence sentences mostly who what and which i think have pronoun but the others don't have actual w. h. words we use other other things no sequel pronouns um i see on those <unk> for <unk> old older commission ration is that um what kind of languages that in in <unk> you know then <unk> i'm not sure [noise] um [noise] <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> or it might be you could talk i don't know <unk> <unk> no i think i'm trying to think of an actor that anyway um i used to that i merely as a function of existing demonstrative food comes from a greek work cut out for <unk> for a <unk> i think [noise] um and that just means when you were throwing something that's not been mentioned yes but is it that would be [noise] okay so it was i wanna say [noise] um i don't know does anyone have anything else they want to say i'd say there's a lot actually two this language despite interesting are saying it's a <unk> a sketch and i think people really should follow our link and look at it themselves because it [noise] it's very interesting follow the the the link to the grammar because there's a lot of interesting there's a lot of pot put into this language and there's a lot of interesting stuff that that happens but is fairly naturalistic <unk> although there's a lot of odd things that i'm like we mentioned like lots of evidence shoals and base eight numerals which [laughter] i wonder if that does that come from <unk> western i think so okay that my <unk> okay [noise] um one thing i see like in the grand master plan if there's people who aren't really or with the term for the um means or <unk> or <unk> the sound change notation that might be a little daunting [noise] uh-huh but yes that's fine um that is that is a little uh difficult to look at the the <unk> but uh [noise] resent a cat that too is that it was it was sort of uh mathematical style of soundtrack condition but so it was nice to see where they all come from yeah yeah you can see you can [noise] um oh initial aspiration interesting um so other than that is is there anything else to say about <unk> i actually just now found it interesting ah feedback horse but yeah [noise] yeah no i think it's good it's we're looking at yeah especially if you wanna try polly personal agreement in a somewhat naturalistic but not perfectly regular way this is uh yeah somewhat a somewhat more approachable um demonstrated that than others you might find so that's good yeah okay [noise] well um let's go to our feedback and this feedback signed killed off so i'll say this is from guild off you said the demon or demean language ah was created by the large scale as a forum ritual language which seems to be classified as a con line but it was developed by an entire culture over several several generations [noise] i'm not by a single person so dumb but classify as a <unk> but on the other hand <unk> book calculators actually very small with only two <unk> [noise] also <unk> <unk> and the <unk> young called languages [noise] don't really matched the phonology of <unk> how do i pronounce of some kind of find the which <unk> um i mean uh for example i mean has a <unk> <unk> any <unk> but <unk> voice <unk> uh how <unk> how would you say that uh [noise] anyway um there are also clicks present in most places articulation would they special mentioned to the pre made little <unk> click contrasting with oral aggressive the oral aggressive by lake <unk> keep in mind that keeping in mind that this is spoken in australia so not a place where you find clicks right ah i was going to mention that i was just gonna say it's gonna mentioned that earlier the only place apart from southern africa and parts of sort of a little bit further north than to the west where clicks occur is in this invented language [noise] of the line [laughter] um any ideas on what's happening there guys also at the top of the show i taught my kid replaced george then i realized that i was an idiot [laughter] you didn't didn't problem which <unk> is that the ritual context and religious context that <unk> you just mostly gone mm [noise] um so the number of people who even still speak it very small [noise] um and since we don't expect i don't think the <unk> ceremony to come back i don't know if we haven't updated to say everything might like to say about the language um suburban susan [noise] ah oh yet no she that do not google that from work [laughter] and your dad google it at all if you er may queasy easily by buddy modification ooh most definitely i go and click then who uh okay anyway [noise] mum slowly people who had gone through particular religious right um use the language officially the lots of people could recognize it and understand it [noise] apparently the mode of instruction involve the initiates just having word sheltered which they repeat it back [noise] huh yeah i really interesting it it is interesting that this is one of those really interesting case of [noise] um language <unk> interacting an interesting way i would be inclined to count it as constructed language even though it has developed overtime several generations the same thing can be said about <unk> [noise] that is not making like which it just doesn't have a single author that we know of right although you know you could have been one guy that show um one of the few successful collaborative colleagues existed <unk> [laughter] how <unk> is that [laughter] you darn rare [laughter] think coming or is don't play well together we all have in new jersey like can we get credit when we don't get to the others [noise] oh <unk> yeah i'm not going to google that yet that don't vote or do you we don't wander around on their you'll just get scout scarred uh-huh [laughter] [noise] oh a young radical so all right so in general worked in it said this is now we know that this was constructed though right yeah it's pretty obvious that is it not like you said it had the phonology quite bizarre compared to the surrounding languages [noise] the manner of instruction the number of people who are speaking it now they're speaking it it makes it pretty clear this was invented mm okay okay well i think for intended for use in particular circumstances and it's sort of a social bonding for people who have been through <unk> <unk> who are in his shoe okay so killed off and we're gonna say basically as far as we can figure it it's it's a constructed language even though it has that odd cents <unk> because it was deliberately constructed whereas natural language is people naturally from something previous mountain [laughter] honestly it's hard for me to get excited about making the distinction i think there's obviously an art mm [noise] a high degree of artists involved in this language in <unk> in one of his <unk> this is another one of the cases where i'm not sure [noise] much as accomplished like deciding [noise] okay [noise] well i think [noise] that <unk> show for us uh william [noise] do you have any final words wisdom wisdom was this week [noise] my [noise] um [noise] nah i think we've covered a lot and a lot of different topics and [noise] you know [noise] same mental always just don't be afraid to go out and try something new and learn more and and comedy <unk> alright than i am going to say have become my [noise] you have been listening to <unk> you can find the <unk> all previous episodes at <unk> dot com including links to our future <unk> online and a few resources to help you make sense of today's topic you're also find links to subscribe to us on high tunes or through other characters [noise] to work toward her face book and google plus pages and a whole lot more questions common some suggestions may be sent to <unk> dot com you can also submit those translated greetings we played the top of the show <unk> display in our head er police even contribute paid for details [noise] thanks for listening [noise] wow that was long and meandering and that was you know this this topic wasn't necessarily like like nails or the wall and the first place it had a very broad um umbrella of what could it could have covered and i think we would wander around quite happily on the planes of world ours now they're combining forum [laughter] so maybe you're articles [laughter] [noise]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. Akana
  4. conlang
  5. conworld
  6. Iŋomœ́
  7. language
  8. linguistics

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 46 Conlanging for Conworlds (last edited 2017-09-07 10:47:57 by TranscriBot)