Conlangery #58: Practicum — Things you can do with the Middle Voice

Conlangery #58: Practicum — Things you can do with the Middle Voice

Published: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 04:00:37 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 you know it was <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] [noise] [noise] welcome to <unk> language is people who <unk> ah would be great state of wisconsin is william n._s. hello and up in new jersey we have michael emptied [noise] and i think my voice is not a hundred percent right now so you'll have to suffer through it um [noise] so how you guys doing doing great love the weather and went out hiking <unk> jumping on a lot of fun yeah it was it wasn't like <unk> was it was pretty pretty big of a cliff and we jumped off knit and into the water and that was fun okay <unk> yeah of course yes um the fun [laughter] um i just woke up recently and they were small children in the house so that's that's been my day are you a <unk> small children are really random small children no no no no no no my my nephew and niece is uh my younger of my two older sisters kids that's louis loren i i call her my number two sister [laughter] okay [laughter] if i woke up and there were small children my house that would mean that i had just woken up in a short story by costco [laughter] okay what else should not ever happen so it's just the fact that i i sleep during the days recently because i usually work night shift but anyway that's oh beside the point i also um ah going back over emails that were sent to me by renters so right in wisconsin and still getting through the planning stages of uh the grill we [laughter] can you believe that um [noise] aside from going to actually to other countries within the u._s. i've never been to i have never been uh i don't think i've ever been west of the ohio river <unk> wow airports wow yeah i've been i've been on i've been an all coasts and both far north in far south well i've been as far west as ah utah camping or spring break and ah i've been a star north uh vermont someday i will go to utah but i have i have my own reasons for that oh okay um which will remain mysterious [laughter] yes [laughter] probably next year i mean next summer i may go to utah five the money for it um but anyway uh joe linguistically related i'll just say that's salt lake city utah probably has the highest concentration of speakers of unusual languages on the planet the mormons had an extremely intense um system of language instruction or in their missionary work of course but you want to find somebody who speak the language of pop when new guinea otherwise normally only spoken by say five thousand people salt lake city is your best chance to find someone who can do that [laughter] oh yes and they also have uh uh a very diverse immigrant community which is surprising for something that's like landlocked in and not near any of the borders right right to the power of religion [laughter] but anyway let's actually get into talking about our topic shall we we we uh seem to be boring people with our no this is the [noise] this is the part about the people who make them we have to make sure we get in the whole thing through the <unk> [laughter] uh well we can say something about ah <unk> line later but er let's let's uh let's talk about our main topic which today is they <unk> become ah william suggested uh as he uh usually <unk> suggest the practice rooms edits things you can do with the middle of voice so sounds like a uh jeopardy category as usual you have a very uh i <unk> the best explanation er of the three of us and the best understanding of what this is what is the middle of voice in the first place um so there's two separate issues here there's the middle voice proper and then there is what i'm doing with the minimum wage for this episode um sort of the classic definition of the middle voice that mike hunted down in and found in the winter <unk> pretty straightforward and it's the middle voice is middle because it's kind of between active in passive the idea is that the subject of the middle verb is both <unk> agents and the patient somehow it participates in both in asia like involvement and a patient like involvement um the verb mhm [noise] um and we can talk a little bit more about that mean we get to examples for the purposes of the show i'm using the middle voice is kind of a blob mhm uh i'm uh no two languages but having middle voice you're going to do exactly the same things with it there are certain commonalities and it seemed to me that if we can take the middle and sort of in the center of a bunch of interesting related things you can do um related to voice argument structure you know that takes him to be on just active in passive and and [noise] it was actually that that would be useful thing to do that i have a question [laughter] when you have a little voice or or their languages in that have uh middle voice that don't have a passive yes okay so it can be you could have active in middle yes typically when that happens is your middle will in certain circumstances heaven passive job but that will be mark by some other syntax for example my my <unk> ancient greek [noise] um hi some um scholars believe and i agree with them i think they've made their case there is no passive in ancient greek you have something called a mediocre passing which mostly is middle light and it only unambiguous leap represents passive when you have the agent phrase additional france i was hit by a car until you have to buy a car point you have no <unk> in greek interesting [noise] so let's get into what what the ah the middle of voice does well aren't really okay i just want to mention quickly the morphology can come from several different directions um and the full list of things but the middle is can do that we're gonna discuss today i'm not aware of any language that does all of them so you might have <unk> you might have part of your decision to discuss today being handled by sort of things that looked like passive and then you might have another part that looks like middle you might have another part that looks like flexing so you don't talk about that you might have a special conjugation you might and and we're going to see we're gonna see lots of things here that romance language speakers in german speakers and dutch speakers are gonna recognize as reflects them [noise] um so there are different ways to come at the follow gene that takes you into middle yeah unrelated are actually um i do want to mention mike you had a note mhm we're talking about the the spanish uh reflective and i believe that particularly constructions like ah <unk> yeah <unk> actually a middle voice that's um it's really hard to translate but it's sort of like uh spanish is smoking here but but <unk> but even that is a very uh loose translation but it's literally here third person reflective speak spanish and he says [laughter] yeah obviously spanish is not speaking itself but it's sort of some some unnamed argument is speaking spanish and right it's it's sort of like a passive and even i believe in traditional grammer it's called <unk> plus fever even though spanish also has another passive voice that more that more closely fits the definition yeah but i think it's mainly like a middle voice because it's so to me it's so ambiguous what the arguments actually are or what the the the natural light agent because you could say that uh we speak spanish or uh they speak spanish here and it it obviously this is not particularly example i'm looking at but it i think it's a middle to me yeah there's a lot of it like i look when i was looking around for um example the little boys things like um [noise] like there's one example i've listened the base broke you know or like you were talking about like the the windows <unk> like in spanish them back down to flex of or i think that reflects seven spanish where one of those uh sim tactically looking like a subject also has like a patient kind of role i think that's what we're talking about earlier uh if you say something like um like <unk> i'm not sure if that's next necessarily <unk> just pure reflective horribly overlap well <unk> the point here is i think calling something in the middle of voice is a little bit like throwing up your hands and saying i give up [laughter] there's <unk> there's something voice like going on here and i don't know what else to call it so it's a middle uh-huh yeah well we were just discussing things each language has the structure you have the reflective in a romance language coverage of asked number of functions which we're going to start lifting shortly um [noise] and they call them or sects of because that's the morphology in you'd look at in somali or ancient greek and you're like oh well that's the middle doing many of the same things so [noise] i don't even keep well mine uh middle very specific meaning in this or that language but it's <unk> you can't assume that what's the middle in one language will work for middle of the matter i think also that might be referring to like what you might call her flex of might be morphological speaking but using middle most might be the <unk> you know naming the same be something different from different because it's uh uh conjugation instead of yeah yeah that could yeah so let's we've we've talked a little better about uh there's there's other things that you can do with more for the morphology right you have [noise] sometimes you're passive or you might have a specific type of passive but that served in the middle where he might have something that's specifically middle voice uh related so i don't know why would that be like a specific uh inflection or construction that that you can't identify as anything else but middle voice or what right i i think that's what sometimes happens yeah um and <unk> the mm lawn history of the ancient greek grammatical tradition this terminology middle reaches us in the modern world and we got in the field and we find something that's not a active not <unk> because of the middle when it doesn't look like a flux of [laughter] <unk> yeah <unk> which will cover a different planting space for every language mhm okay so we've talked um we'll probably have more spanish examples but we act a little bit about spanish stuff so it's a lot of our listeners will be familiar with and we've talked a little bit about um morphology in general and use it uses and certain journal let's get into william your big list of things <unk> than a middle can do right so the first one is it can be a full reflective so and i mean this this can go both ways you can have reflects to pronouns that switch out and take over other middle meaning what'd you were most familiar within the western european languages um or you can have a morphological separate middle voice marker um that can take on you know i hit myself kinds of meaning mhm mhm so that's that's that um [noise] the next thing that's a very common is verbs of grooming and the body motion mar very frequently participate in middle morphology whether that's a real sensitive and whatnot so things like wash is it quite you know <unk> right <unk> blah blah blah you know all sorts of languages students or that's that's that's something that um definitely romance those 'cause i know uh mid level those mindless but yeah right exactly exactly um and say that example for later 'cause that's another point i want to make a missile toward the end um or an example of buddy motions rush um i don't know what it is in spanish to say that you're hurting somewhere but i put are saying yeah yeah there you go it's reflection mhm yeah <unk> well there's there's there's a bunch of <unk> we could get into that we could get into the nitty gritty of romance languages in spanish and and talk about old leaves verbs that require uh uh uh but we we need to be a little bit more general than that yeah yeah um [noise] sort of related to this may be a little bit is very often verbs emotion or middle names um so french uses uh they told me to be <unk> sorry my <unk> mhm mhm mhm uh another class of verbs that might take uh middle marking is natural reciprocal those our actions that necessarily involve too people things like hug and the kids for example or fight mhm mhm right so we can greek the verb for for people who are fighting is middle knock them you know not <unk> they're they're fighting [noise] um uh-huh you're going to say um when i was looking up on this might fall right in with this um i was looking up in english how some verbs are the site called are gonna verbs and um it called that for example i be you understand you mean you beat yourself you don't think you'd be something else but when you really i i ate it doesn't have that same feeling 'cause you know you eat something else you don't think you ate yourself right and uh i don't know if that was when you were talking about the grooming and the button the motion and the and um and the emotion verbs is that was touching on that kind of activity in some verbs in english or if that was just not landed well see english is really horrible here 'cause we have a lot it because we have a lot of <unk> take on vaguely middle meaning when they have no overt direct object uh-huh but then become fully transit of active voice the instant uh direct object appears like i'm move mhm i'm move the car uh-huh yes right and that's because english is insane [laughter] yeah [laughter] so <unk> something like i'm versus the car in any other sensible language has some overt morphology that distinguishes be active from the middle sense mm ancient greek all the romance thing there's all these languages of europe will for the most part you very clear practice yeah in spanish i <unk> i'm sorry go on go oh it's going to say for <unk> if you just say you'll <unk> i think that's wrong grammatical i think upset i would say <unk> or you say you know i don't know if you say you're on your own bathroom or something like that like i believe the dog i don't know if you say like that might just be <unk> but anyways um yeah you'd have to use you'd have to use <unk> but even if you say like you know level i think that requires some sort of object you can't just say like i've lost does it require one or does it i'm sorry that you're not like it could be in in the context see non <unk> native speaker spanish yeah my guess is like whenever i was learning i got the feeling of each day you'll level it's incomplete it's like you're saying okay yeah i think it was a little discomfort in some other languages they still want a direct uh even though mhm they still have other morphology <unk> yeah [noise] anyway um [noise] well i'm sorry you were talking about um the <unk> right now and then we can have other kinds of reciprocal <unk> might also fall into middle marking things like respect they respect nature [laughter] [noise] um [noise] so um i love this word i would guess george i was trying to think straight out um chinese has an uncomfortable with with with ah sort of middle meanings to the point where they'll just add an object like when you say uh when you say uh i wash my if if you were gonna say i took a bath and chinese it's or or i base in in chinese it's <unk> uh the best i can translate i wash a bath and signing a lot of that redundancy and having to like two verbs i mean the same thing or using having an object built into that i think and heard of that is earlier stages or chinese had the same kind of weird <unk> english has [noise] in the sense that many verbs were middle or otherwise in transit <unk> object and then become trend that it causes gives the instant direct object appears mhm [noise] and on with all sorts of complications for that i'm studying classical chinese <unk> for now huh [laughter] yes so then we get to my the lovely word auto bahn effective [laughter] oh yes definitely do something for yourself uh-huh um when the subject is doing something forward some benefits this is dee common examples in every beginning ancient greek textbook trying to explain to the middle it's called that [laughter] um okay so the <unk> the example it appears in practically every textbook is um <unk> which means to teach so you have the the difference between the man taught his son which is active versus the man had his son talked oh that is that like uh like uh cause it ever like uh like kind of you make no no it's definitely not him back that effective i mean i'm trying to be um idiomatic <unk> english really the sense is he had his son educated for his benefit named <unk> but he wasn't the one doing the educate doing <unk> exactly exactly that's the point he's not necessarily directly both he's having something being done for his benefit okay interesting um i always thought this was a very weird meaning but it turns out that it's a regular feature of languages <unk> robust missiles so somali um has a middle voice switches surprisingly like ancient greeks <unk> in terms of the range of meetings recover <unk> [noise] all right so another function the middle can do is a. d. objective mhm that's what the paper i read cold it to me it sounds like an anti passive it's where you missed a specific object because it's irrelevant so romance languages don't do this but russian does so mike you can give us the russian briefly <unk> [noise] some <unk> and that means the dog by <unk> literally the dog bites itself but obviously that makes some sense it's that if you're if you're going to say if he wants a dog by itself he'd say <unk> and then say the word for itself i think that would be like <unk> [noise] man i gotta think of a button that you would <unk> the pronoun there you're able to ireland there instead of simply this vaguely too that reflective ending so it's like it's not that sounded like it yeah that would have that that sounds like an anti passive to me cause yeah dropping the object so the dog fights would that be like um in english <unk> when we say that dog fights meaning the dog habitually bites people exactly exactly the dominant heinz bite yeah yeah okay [noise] the dog is by tea [laughter] after after um after our free show uh uh when we should have an example of the monkey bites [laughter] right yeah yeah anyway you know there's an anti passive since like i said i don't think any of the romance languages do this but it's obviously english does something similar in the sense that bite normally you would expect an object what year we've committed an object and we lost trends duty a little bit and it's i mean something else and respect to what i said earlier when you see like i eat i mean you understand it means you eat something <unk> initially i wash it means you're i'd be i mean <unk> baby yourself but this one seems almost like dumped vices like uh like uh like uh um [noise] the money and the object because it's not really important right so yeah i suppose that's the anti passive you mean by yep yep so another anti that the middle can do is an antique caused the tips mhm uh-huh which is confusing name it's just it's [noise] it means that the subject experiences a state of affairs with no agency either semantic or some tactic the classic example is always the window broke which i mentioned to learn spanish right they'll bread beta yeah that that definitely cruise and spanish but um <unk> the coffee room [noise] all of them have a chicken marinated chicken higher dated yes yes yeah um that's that's an interesting i i like this one i like having a a weight i think that if you're very concerned with and let me see this may be a good way to use your middle voice because [noise] obviously most basically almost any inanimate uh maybe <unk> <unk> uh uh <unk> sort of experience or mhm could probably take this yep because obviously the point is the window broke the window had no no no agency or or causation named breaking it just happened to break [laughter] right [noise] so it sounds like sounds like one a little kid doesn't want <unk> you know fess up <unk> up in the window broke did you break it [laughter] <unk> right so people who tell you that the passive is used to hide agency have never learned about the middle [laughter] that george orwell [laughter] [laughter] [noise] um <unk> another thing that middle can do is what one paper i read called the potential passive the sixers in english and in german and i think maybe one or two other languages where'd you say things like this book sells well <unk> okay yeah or or in reads easily in english they use is practically confined to being used and ribs like well or easily uh-huh right so again books don't sell things in the normal scheme of things don't they don't even sell themselves they don't even sell themselves but the book so this is really weird to talk about an english because since we don't have any really morphological middle it's really hard to really be over yes yeah it's it's really just these weird secondary uh lexical saying well it is more logical it's just it's it's indicated express we buy this zero more yeah [laughter] yeah which is like nothing [noise] this will be hard i think the city i'm sorry go on you know it just seems it it it almost seems electrical when you when you're talking about it in any english yeah i was gonna say he's gonna be difficult teaching non native speaker about <unk> because it's a very like i got a feeling for what they mean when like when you said the bookshelves while you don't mean the book is on the side selling wells [noise] you know right like um and i think [laughter] you just grow up getting a feel for that um 'cause it is marked by what looks like just a regular you know uh i guess in trends or a transit a verbal with no within you know uh no object <unk> right right i guess it's one of the the few ways were um and we see is is obviously important in english because one one thing about is book gives me an animal you can't actually selling so at the point is that it's easy to sell it so that's very true because if you use something for example <unk> um well i was going to use an example of tucson but you couldn't even say like you know like she sells well because you mean mushy sell something yeah person who are being sold ah that's harmless not example is but right if you say like these puppies so well that sounds a little weird too yeah but yeah but you understand perfectly what that means but there's a high on there that we must be especially yeah because 'cause sell really goes mainly with humans in the in the regular trends demeaning and somehow in their english verbs like tasting smell seemed to me similar like this tastes good this tastes terrible smells horrible versus i smell the flower that seems a little [laughter] er typically i mentioned earlier it's like when there's an animate object our outings with low intimacy it becomes an or get of application where the subject is the the grammatical subject is you patients yeah well yeah yeah yeah yeah but then we use weird um [noise] pretty good adjectives into the bedrooms and get something do you think we'll just <unk> we will move uh although i'll say things like i'm not going to say that i'm gonna i'm gonna pull back from <unk> nothing by breach i'd have to research that [laughter] you know what um i'm gonna uh save just really quick i think uh and we've had topics like this before this is a very difficult topic to talk about like really because of the fact that we don't really we can't really do like losses and stuff right i wonder william if when this episode post you might right a like a companion uh log post on the site some you could i could i've also got a paper discussing exactly this thing it it's a paper so from some clever german trying to come up with this magic math forty entirety uh everything that's not an active or passive um which is the right guy that's cool [noise] the paper i linked to make some slightly different breakdown in the one i'm giving here just because [noise] mhm um there seemed a little over a complex but they have lots of examples within for many years and all this stuff that you want so okay you know maybe it's not just serves a purpose anyway so [laughter] right right yeah i think we can we can do that um and then the last thing that you can have is your middle might be a true passive um like i said an ancient greek by using the correct oh bleak repetition your menial pass it becomes passive i'm was seen blind uh general [noise] um and then it becomes effectively passing on the other hand somali has a middle voice but uses indefinite subject pronoun for the equivalent of a bathrooms you can't say i would see you have to say someone told me <unk> i mean there there's some other sources they claim that somali has uh drew passive and even those people who say that the number of birds that actually take this morphology is quite low interesting right so looking through your list that was actually kind of surprising to me how many of these things actually to occur in spanish and i presume throughout romance languages but there's also like to be objective doesn't happen so much right that's right right so so it's it's interesting you can have quite a few of these in in one particular language but uh you said there's no language that has all of them right not that i'm aware i mean maybe you couldn't with some if you were feeling if you were an an an all in the middle <unk> kind of mood now [laughter] this english doesn't really mark this but in languages was richer more verbal morphology or otherwise do they marxist overtly one <unk> this middle voice [noise] what do you mean like it might there'd be some like uh like i don't know if their languages with one topic for active <unk> passive and then maybe it's not been through this mental voice [noise] i don't know what i'm saying it's not possible but i don't know of any language that has separate morphology for but his distinct for um middle and passive like i said some people say somali how does this and but it only applies to small number of arms where you have uh sort of active uh middle one [noise] and it seems like uh voice stuff is one thing that we're it's likely for something to be <unk> purpose right so yeah yeah <unk> i mean [noise] i've seen one or two works that sort of um traces the history of reflects <unk> in the romance language and they start a fairly constrained right because latin hadn't drew passive and did things differently had a few things to look like romance flexible but not many and then over time and like i said this many times before grammar is born hungry mm the instant you weren't reflective oh i see myself starts doing anything anything remotely middle like overtime and will continue to push its way into new meaning mhm it might start getting used verbs and emotion might start getting used for [noise] seems like natural reciprocal isn't it just you know it it can go on from there mhm [noise] um i don't [laughter] i can't think of any principled reason why you couldn't have an active in middle and a passive separate morphology and language i'm just not run across the language that does it do you know the japanese usually on i know japanese seems to make a lot in that sense but ah i don't think it really has um you know i don't know enough i don't remember that from my japanese i don't think i heard was taught the passive and the short time i think happening so mhm [noise] yeah [noise] hospitals that up i don't wanna make us uh you know i deviate from sending more right greek had something marking like that but i guess i <unk> yeah uh pretend something like what [noise] um i saw that on it right click here i said i linked um in <unk> in the greek [noise] not only the greek um there's an example of same <unk> like i just <unk> low mind means i watch myself yes let them die right new on line and i thought that my or just the i was what was showing that middle voicing i'm not sure okay so does have some sort of i think it has an entirely separate um system a graduation for the middle okay <unk> in in ancient greek unlike a romance language so you all my means i wash myself [noise] mhm i mean what what in english he would just say i watch if you just say you all that's <unk> the normal active in greek it's implied that you were watching something [laughter] mm right greek is perfectly happy to leave subjects an object implicit if they're already in the conversation so it <unk> it's very sensitive to transit to city but has no no need to overtly mentioned indirect object um a bird that already active in trenton it you know something that i i feel like you could kind of free up with the middle of voice um in in <unk> certain circumstances so that like because you're making this middle meaning very obvious with morphology or syntax or something mhm then you can just leave objects implicit and not have confusion right yeah i just linked um <unk> another site that mentioned really good examples of the uh i think on a benefactor [noise] <unk> like i carry versus i carry out for myself in a compatible contacts i win it mentioned <unk> i think um i can't even provide profit but it mentioned <unk> oh my ah that sucks right right i mean that's just that's just the first person singular president so <unk> um i i'm reminded of a funny transit tiffany error okay um so there's a online forum <unk> devoted to people who are teaching them so to speak in manhattan and very very often especially in the latin foreign people come in wanting their spooky <unk> <unk> you know heavy metal band motto [laughter] you know they're a cult orders motto or their fantasy role playing game motto turned into latin because it sounds cooler like never took <unk> driving from <unk> <unk> um somebody wanted to give you know this group of good guys the model that they destroy evil and so he just he just waste too a dictionary and grabbed the two that were which were do <unk> which means i a pervert dissolve [laughter] not that means is i'll tell you our style you more water or you lose all something right that's the [laughter] that is exactly right question to ask [laughter] and i think it means that you weren't dissolving something i like it better with the middle of transportation however [laughter] <unk> to me into a glass of alka seltzer in there you go [laughter] right let me let me <unk> it might have an in transit demeaning [noise] ah no it's definitely solidly <unk> <unk> [noise] i just wanted to see shirt that said oh you had a pervert yourself but [laughter] wow anyway that's the danger just using it dictionary anyway so moving on once you've got a middle all sorts of weirdness however you're indicating the middle all sorts of fun can follow from that for example yes some verbs may only ever occur in the middle uh-huh uh-huh so this is very common in ancient greek someone when he full full day and there there may well be verbs in romance languages but our only ever you know i never used alone they're only used um with reflections mhm uh there are there are yeah right um so even though you have this middle morphology mhm the totality of that construction might still behaved transit differently in arguments structure okay so for example getting back to washington in german you say <unk> i wash me dianne mm yes [laughter] exactly the same thing that happens in romance languages right exactly exactly very come in the european languages very common in ancient greek yeah i'm not like i love me some chicken sure oh that's that's really interesting [laughter] i wonder well anyway we can do english linguistics after the show um so and and then just for for insanity sake greek ancient greek has a rather mysterious thing where certain verbs that are active in the present and all of their ten says except for some reason i always have to be middle in the future mhm so where do you like to see perfectly boring blend word icy is always in the middle in the future [noise] meaning that you are being yourself in some way or you're seeing for your benefit nobody knows what exactly what's going on there <unk> are written dissertation is our produce [noise] actually i want to mention one thing uh and and ask you a question about it i'm not sure if this actually qualifies as a middle thing or not because so in spanish there are you know you do have the say construction but there's also a rather bizarre uh thing going on with certain emotion verbs well yeah i saw that mhm you um basically it's agreement with the patient kind of thing uh like um who stops it so uh uh <unk> uh like when you when you say you won't make <unk> uh <unk> <unk> you might say you know i like the middle of voice <unk> on me that's right i mean he goes to the most many <unk> sort of the agent is it's more like a passive and it <unk> mhm for good starting to you have to do this <unk> you have to sort of the agent the person doing the liking becomes the object and then it has this agreement with the the uh the the patient the thing that's being like <unk> i think of it as like you know something something is pleasing to me yeah like if you're saying i hope you are i hope i hope you like me <unk> that might be <unk> that make me you know it's not okay st louis though so i don't get out of here is there's an entire class the verbs that have to do with experience <unk> man mhm <unk> uh we we talk about the experience or subject um the romance languages especially in the northern see her infamous for having indirect constructions where <unk> in english we would think of as the subject is actually in the date of mhm yeah um that's what things like me thinks houston uh-huh right it's not i think it to me thinks right <unk> somewhat came into my brain mhm um and my brain is starting to melt down thinking about how dated experiences and work with reflects through middle <unk> well what i thought you were going to like what you're talking about here i think yeah i thought um george them go into was spanish there are some um [noise] some emotion verbs like in a hostile to become angry and you say <unk> that's it's like i guess it'd be so and saying i i experienced anger <unk> it was in myself or something like that it's it doesn't translate directly an attic right same thing but it's still the show's verbs of emotion mhm yeah it's a whole class it's um you know <unk> <unk> <unk> there's probably until you have to say i guess but you wouldn't be <unk> i've never heard that [noise] and <unk> [laughter] anyway [laughter] so i got to do and now we we talk about <unk> but but once you get it's now it's <unk> it's too too dated experience or then that also can start to out into things like emotions and combination which is where we get them to make me think [laughter] um but yeah my <unk> starting to shake kind of metal and gas is gonna blow soon [laughter] that i made a thing as i did it since i didn't prepare beforehand to me [laughter] i'm not sure i want to say anything to me it <unk> it certainly makes me think of a computer crazy alignment [laughter] uh <unk> well sure couldn't a crazy limited based on that you either you there um that were talking about now i live with you on on oh coon a is a language we featured some time to go by math person who is actually in some p._h._d. in linguistics mhm and he took the date of experience or idea and ran to the moon <unk> [laughter] mhm [noise] um and some other things i mean we we we don't need to to check that out or something like reading to the point is the middle it's really fascinating but he is going to intercept with you or alignment in possibly complex wave mhm which are worse i mean the worst making a note on even if you don't want to solve all problems immediately you know make a note saying how do i do this and and move on and then when you're ready for that brand bending and it it yeah [noise] anything else like i said i have this one paper that is not very nice we typeset <unk> has a bunch of <unk> and examples from different languages beyond the language and all that certainly like that in the show nuts um i think um we've done enough a brain melting free now well onto our um well ah you might have you ever question mike well a lot of class when i was just gonna i had a couple of months on here that i mean we talked amongst most of them are just another quick example um actors passions i'm in the middle one [noise] um <unk> i guess ling forum dot com threat ah she broke surveys pure is active the base was broken by him is passive voice and then the maze broke and where the mental voices and example of an english [laughter] um yeah that's another example teach at heart a good way to think of that's one of the things that you can do with middle voices is bring out those examples of inanimate objects experiencing things that they can't cause [laughter] mhm yeah um that's that's why so <unk> <unk> if we're all done with that we have our featured on line very actually not a common lying <unk> rather nah and so um um it's been a few episodes since we've done natural language so we thought we'd we'd be one and the one we are doing today is <unk> <unk> <unk> yes [noise] it's a little difficult and it's ironic that we're talking about it now because i'm making the linguistics round it's been a paper that was recently published but it's making the ludicrous clean [laughter] that the languages in new european [laughter] so the probably the problem with the <unk> languages spoken by the horns who claim to be accepted this is this is the <unk> as far as we know hey possibly isolate language spoken in pakistan um and this is relevant because they claims to be the remnants of the army uh alexandra degrade ooh [noise] but but <unk> not greek [laughter] it's really nice there are a tends to claim that it is related to <unk> which is come up from time to time and this is what the most recent papers claiming as well as i recall french [noise] <unk> yes uh if you study you know the ancient rome you hear about the free <unk> periodically were exterminated by greeks and romans huh [laughter] have you know why i'm laughing at that [laughter] that's what the romans did they [noise] country people anyway so the hundred people um in certain as three valleys in pakistan it's my yearly shiite muslims speaking i'm really really weird language [noise] um the things about it that are most interesting in that make it must have weird or in particular a heavy user of <unk> for morphology okay [noise] um that's really the big one um and it has a four way class system which exist pervasive <unk> and the <unk> system mhm [noise] um the pre fixing thing is why some people try to relate the language to um the cat language in siberia and by way of cats all the way over to now though you say cats are cats cats k. e. yeah huh so a few years ago someone came up with the evidence that the cat language spoken in central siberia is related to the <unk> and the masking languages of america and at this point i think most people except that yeah that's generally the generally accepted if you can't accept that <unk> and <unk> you might be related um then we have language probably didn't pass pakistan related very very distant me too now though which would be kinda cool uh-huh uh-huh [noise] so anyway um actually move on door and she likes to talk about phonology mm yeah well um uh i'll look back at the phonology i was looking a little through the grammar and i'm like thinking oh could you sick this is the european [laughter] huh [laughter] <unk> normally it's vocabulary that you use to determine relationships and you assume that grammar can change but the systematic way that british as he grammar work does not seem particularly in the european i mean the interviewer languages have gone through some pretty profound changes right but even if you're right they doing the <unk> too many all sorts of fun stuff like that but it it seems a little strong um george you might like to be competing page better in terms of putting out the phonology [noise] yeah 'cause i can't figure out anything from that um listener like many languages it the region it hasn't heritage entire series of retro flex complements mm yes on distinct from el dealers and dental although i notice a they actually specifically mentioning that it's missing the ah and the <unk> it is missing the nasal so that suggests it's maybe a little bit [noise] so it's pretty huge it every other way so i'm surprised at the end but yeah it had lots of russia flex is uh stopped and a bunch of africa yeah lots of africa it's like chinese and has like the same the same africa gets this chinese does oddly enough uh <unk> uh oh retro flex approximate have you ever see that backward <unk> upside down our with the tail i've never seen that before wow i think that yeah that is a symbol for retro flex <unk> isolate endurance corruptions of english on uh <unk> nobody uses it who actually does english linguistics because they just use mine are right yeah [noise] um [noise] i didn't think there's anything really bonkers about the sounds this new language there are various kinds of grammatical process is that oh manhandle the accent that <unk> mostly to the front of the word yeah it's there's nothing really surprising <unk> lots of retro places which don't frankly a lot and all a lot of languages but that may be influenced they mention that it's it's similar to um sort of hindi or to do in that in yeah in some respects and and you expect and been sitting next to each other and and sitting close to both um yeah language at the same continent both dirty in in inner european have absorbed metroplex in so that's not surprising has lots of uh friction plus just for one thing that is really big um on what was i going to say [noise] um it has um a class system quite similar to to gender there are for human males humans females animals and comfortable object and then materials and attractions yeah interesting one way um mhm where it's mostly semantic but as always with these things all sorts of things get moved out those let us than i am uh-huh okay go ahead the a and m. s. t. w. w. a. c. k. are those like the means or they just what they <unk> oh no this is <unk> <unk> oh okay although there is a pre fixes forum yeah again where the hell do you get the idea of this in the european when it has for being genders and <unk> and i'm at inanimate <unk> and most of them to like what is ended up with people who wants to <unk> to actually be the remnants of the army of alexander the great are highly motivated to relate to this language the european [laughter] okay [laughter] but uh i mean genetically makes no sense either right there hello type puts part of their genetics from some continent and part of them from further into east asia which you know puts them makes the relationship with a cat a little bit more likely [noise] <unk> it it makes me think of all the the the uh crazy crackpot series that uh <unk> <unk> oh yeah yeah yeah yeah well they another show every isolate language is a blank slate for crackpots [laughter] uh right now i <unk> i think i think there's someone who's trying to say that <unk> the language spoken to in the united states <unk> um [noise] the desert south west is related to japanese oh [noise] which is again more leniency anyway [laughter] um so <unk> again there are exceptions and the gender system like a word like house um even though it's a comfortable object is in the <unk> class [noise] um where as the thing is like so if you're a supernatural <unk> and you're female you're in the human female class but if you're a supernatural being and your mail then you're in the animal class not the human middle class huh oh interesting so they actually kind of <unk> those two lower intimacy yet again more evidence that um that <unk> um uh assumptions about where supernatural beings go are wrong on that for [noise] <unk> well my uh uh oh i'm sorry i'm looking i was just uh were catholic <unk> um <unk> mentioned these positions like my number and i just found the eleventh and this was on the finite verb right there [laughter] so this is what maybe [laughter] maybe it's related to know is there is an eleven swat system for the verb jeeze that's like i i'm i'm <unk> i mean it's wow [noise] [noise] oh yeah yeah [laughter] it's a nice complex system um it's a organized or good sibling so that your pre fixed pronoun marking inside of the subject of an <unk> or the object of a transit verb um and the third person our own marked for these four classes mhm this makes no sense for the the the it through periods or i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm slowly coming to the conclusion that those people are <unk> strange idiots and the numbers of i just saw so that's not really ah yeah that's funny yeah i guess i guess we should not talk so much about uh correct but but uh [laughter] [laughter] 'cause they'll send us angry angry mail um [laughter] uh let's see here the language is neat is in that it just english is alienated from inhale you'll procession and takes that the further step um in that words that are that take you nearly it'll possession must always be possessed oh so you cannot ever say my mother it always has to be someone's mother [laughter] i'm on a few interesting what if you don't have someone to put up with like the mother is here [noise] and you'd have to commute how do you know it's like how do you know that it's a mother if you can't say it's somewhat so we would have to be someone's mother that's where now though does it <unk> it has uh uh um [noise] a possessive ethics that just mean someone's huh yeah well think about it in the majority of cases uh-huh you would actually be speaking you wouldn't know whose mother it is because that's that's the main reason for using that term is any tinge of term or anything like that right right a spot in in the off chance that you were talking about mothers in general they they might have some special way of viewing yeah huh interesting interesting so you get into the p._d._f. we have that will list here um they make an observation once again now the <unk> that's exactly the same thing and it just has a funny sentence speaker of blue chef he asked what is the word for hand well <unk> are they in my hand or graying your hand depending on where you point [laughter] right [laughter] interesting [laughter] so so the position is march by prefix for an alien humble and alien about possession has separate words mhm [noise] <unk> nation on them what to be interesting to it yeah there are many <unk> patterns or they just based on more by were basis like somewhere in this type someone like that type i like it has to be memorize ah i didn't want to do a combined with that kinda thing that'll be a fun sort of like an adventure remembering all the different endings <unk> this will go with this and all that right i think and it's it's my theory that kind of lingers tend to avoid it seems like you know class three now owns that have you know a dozen different possible throw markers because we all need that me might want to use our language [laughter] more than just confusing people and more than just confusing people and we would like not to have to remember an screw up things or something but anyway well historical ah development is good for uh throwing that out so that's true too [noise] um [noise] you're right i think that oh you mentioned uh the cases nurse um [noise] not <unk> there's absolutely <unk> and then there's oh bleakest what does that just use for all knocked um that uh for everything else <unk> like an english <unk> basically um don't leave like when we say like i'm than me me is that an o._b. case that's not accused of right the problem is is gonna mean something different from language language it looks like in <unk> oblique does two things it's the gender too mhm and then to provide the stem onto which a bunch of different other marks happened yeah i was thinking of reasonably come on my language <unk> but i would want to get a more fire them grasp of [noise] yeah well i mean it'll be <unk> just again it's a you throw up your hands and you say there's no [laughter] other word that works better [noise] yeah nice on the wrestling teacher whenever we ask the question i shouldn't have the answer for <unk> fate [laughter] so it's like a stereotype [laughter] um [laughter] kind of neat it has these compounded um case and things for location so in at all and and an ear all have lock addictive um apple it is an allergy centered so <unk> you know so to near from near <unk> near something um that reminds me of languages and the cocker <unk> which is yet another place people try to relate <unk> [noise] um [noise] uh given the weirdness of the verb it's actually the <unk> it's actually quite regular you have some weird this is in the verb stem but once you've memorized what goes in each slots it's pretty darn predictable [noise] and basically if you don't have things <unk> like i'm into the mental <unk> just skip them and gone away you just get you skip them so you do have some funny tactics that can muddle things up a little bit but technically you could say everything's regular excessive i wonder if they'll back really quickly and <unk> uh mike you mentioned that the numerals are are um <unk> [noise] yeah <unk> it's really interesting how that works because up to twenty there's actually are sort of teen constructions mhm purim goes to <unk> for my hand <unk> which is um which is deriving from ten plus the the uh other number and then you go to twenty and then once you go to thirty <unk> really funny because you know have you that that's where you see it become truly adjustable because you have thirty is twenty ten and <unk> forty is two twenty two twenty ten mhm it's not as as waikiki crazy as um what was it danish that we've yes yes that we talked about but it's pretty interesting the way it works um one thing with the <unk> to come back to the <unk> the verb doesn't have certain places in the verb wearing you stick things ah yes but that's in <unk> <unk> yeah but this i mean well okay i mean i guess i figure i find them as um kind of like hobbies that you stick things and no no no it's not it's not um so for languages like blue chef ski or any of the african languages people talking about a template morphology fat and that's what this is not be morphology is much more like um indonesians or <unk> what is <unk> is this <unk> eleven or some doesn't slots where you just put different parts and then you get <unk> about the other end would just be like an ugly another kind of thing kind of like a <unk> <unk> it can be ugly <unk> it can be synthetic mhm and all i'm saying there is if it's gluten maybe eating any good i mean it's ugly dating then each morphine is obviously identifiable in the chain it'd been synthetic that means hanky panky happens when things <unk> all sorts of morphological changes happened mhm um what are we saw ski and none of us who are definitely synthetic in the sense that [noise] a number of kinds of fanatic changes happened at the boundary mhm technically they're predictable but you have to memorize a mass number of rules so it might be easier just to think of something but synthetic <unk> but the main thing is and i have i have a feeling that the template is sort of more of a cigarette construction that we use to explain to to talk about this metal linguistically it's it's sort of generally the idea is that you have certain categories of uh ethics is and they uh her in a certain order and and smacked lucent tax yeah it helps us uh i think talking about a template just helps us to talk about these languages were basically you have bunches of different aspects is on the verb or something like that right i mean the main distinction between but it was nasty and the asking language is is that in <unk> you have the verb stem happens in slot five <unk> there's more things accurate than there are before i mean there's still an interesting question prefix and whereas in the language like non <unk> for all practical purposes everything is <unk> and <unk> and the verb some kind of the very end yeah <unk> <unk> that sounds that that that affects my brain a little bit [laughter] oh like i think of it and i'm like how do you know where the verb and starts ends well uh [laughter] um [noise] one thing that's neat and then again <unk> potentially <unk> into the fall of the <unk> [noise] <unk> family is that it has ah prefix <unk> too which is a d. um and it is they use to treat the trains too many <unk> including producing things that we just talk to him today middle like thing <unk> motion sometimes it's used in ah i saw a great one oh my foot itches my foot <unk> um <unk> my foot to me my <unk> [laughter] [laughter] um [laughter] so so with one stone we've got cold to get cold for a masculine do get cold for feminine and then to cost something to be cool and then you have another prefix which is effectively a transit um claws into visor which isn't <unk> for a bomb in youth d._n._s. together i didn't think to check that that'd be fun [laughter] yeah <unk> like you must use like maybe eight eight or eight be your maybe ninety eight or nine year can use like is there a word that might have <unk> rural areas i would not be flabbergasted you find that there was any word ever that used to all of this month yeah so i mean um i mean i know for a fact that that that is the case <unk> vast chain you don't expect usually more than eight oh that's only eight eight of the eleven [laughter] oh i got i mean it it it is at at the the high extreme non that's her that's designed bananas crazy when the interesting thing to me about what <unk> is that it has no word for not there's a name and prefix but yeah it's not a separate right it's just more <unk> it's not a separate particle is only marked on the verb now would you say that not a free more from it so it's only says about morphine yes okay huh i wonder is there and work for now i wonder [noise] there is a word for no mm mm like in japanese they also have like there's a whole conjugation for negative right there is a whole country actually but you still have a a word oh there is yes yes yes i think that's true too and i think they have a separate were true so but that it i mean that's cool i think george what you're saying you like when there's something special about negative like that like when a confrontation oh yeah i like um i like when the verb has a negative form mhm or something like that rather than having a particle this yeah i don't know it's just sort of a a funny thing too that it's a fun thing to see when ah and very different from what we're used to uh-huh um at least in you know european languages mhm huh this kind of uh do you think maybe we can wrap this up three i think we've uh we've been on a disk enough i mean there there there there are some interesting things about how's the board nation happens there is a special group forum called the consecutive which is <unk> changing right <unk> or claws changing i should say you did this than you did this thing you did this and and the main group comes at the end gets the full [noise] um yeah i'm just saying that it's definitely we will linked to this grammar and you guys should everybody should look through that i'll handle shortly it's not super crazy complicated so i think it's this should be within the realm of anyone who wants to to give a full read through in an hour or two that were competing by and i'm i'm i like a sounding yeah i'm sounding dumber than usual on this one because like i i'm just looking through the grammar right now and i didn't prepare and all i'm just kind of seeing random thing but uh i think definitely look at the grammar a little bit yourselves and uh there's a lot of good ideas that you can draw from this ah language i think yeah um mhm that's why i put it on the list mm yeah and it was only by accident that it's certainly burst into the news again [laughter] [laughter] okay so why don't we move onto feedback mm let's sell no objections nope okay we got a couple of emails so i'm going to do two of 'em 'cause they're kind of short um uh we have one from thomas winder off from sweden i don't know if i'm pronouncing is her name right uh he says hi i just listen to your fifty second episode and hurt you mentioned k. less i think it's uh [laughter] <unk> [laughter] and playing on nope [laughter] last year we go uh i just thought it would be fun to mention that when i first read about playing on liking the case out i wonder if k. last was upon playing on is actually kayla us [laughter] or might not other puns and uh playing on like ah <unk> um <unk> and a pair from the <unk> the the siamese twins but perhaps k. lessons to <unk> what is <unk> er what is hannah <unk> he's uh it's like some yeah yeah it's the name of a hero in a culture here locally pleading on yeah um um but i don't think he's sort of a messiah figure too but um i don't think so it'd be funniest the language funny scandalous <unk> it's it's a funny way ah a funny thing to uh to think about but it in seriousness i i think that um that was probably unfortunately one of the name that was just foisted upon mark crime and he decided to make a native guides planning on version of it you know because but you know it would be really fun yes it was that way it wouldn't it [laughter] um and we have another one that we might want to respond to a little bit further this is from johnny says hi i discovered your project recently uh i've been listening to some of your archive episodes in those early episodes your reference new blessings and i was wondering what are the hallmark somewhat new blank and how can i tell if i've made one mm no first time i wonder do we all have the same idea of what a new building is probably had similar ideas but anyway i guess i mean i can tell you what i think of the two main points them anyway okay okay the first point is if it has a great many sound anger medical constructions and words that perfectly match that of your native language or a language you've studied relaxing yup relaxing well relaxing and you know you <unk> right an english speaker puts like er and the sound and the <unk> um is probably inadvertently making it anyway i mean they may they might just loved that so i don't put it in you know that can happen but yeah [laughter] so that's the first i liked i liked to say that i put that in i i put <unk> because of the sound and because of the sign language but it may have also been that at the time that i first created the language i did not realize that those sounds we're not very common um some point in my life i wanted to invent a language that uses um <unk> harmony ooh [laughter] so i need and stuff for that just because because i didn't bush i saw the second um saying that character i says the new blaine is um what we called the kitchen sink or oh the morphine nuts [laughter] <unk> [laughter] how old are you more teams over a thousand or more all the more that's when you have an enormous complex table of everything that you found that you thought was cool and interesting you know get put into the same language without necessarily why are you <unk> summertime i've done this [laughter] we all have [laughter] [laughter] i had an entire shoe box of languages that happened when i got the clicking on dictionary i just went completely bunkers with highly crazy ugly hitting languages it was like walking through a field and burgers and everybody on your stock would be another thing of language and it's like ooh i found this let me added on and it was homeless frankenstein monster and a lot in common like [laughter] it's very easy i i think those you know this pot cash every week we talk about almost every week we talk about a new linguistic features and you know a lot of people might be tempted to just like make the <unk> oh what's that every single features that we've mentioned in it but that would be a little wacky um unwritten and uh difficult to like right in ah every single one of those features that you find fascinating and wonderful and couldn't be perfectly well put into a <unk> might not really make a great deal of sense with the rest of the language you have existing they might not work together played any teaching link kitchen sink calming is not so much the problem because there are some mind boggling complicated languages in the world on yeah morphological craziness of just you know old irish that makes me cry um [laughter] or another which makes me going to lead a position um mhm but they all have to work together as a system so i think the the the problem with the kitchen sink is not that you're using all the more themes there might be way to make that work the point is you'll have the things that are kind of these bombs that don't assimilate to the rest of it like i say yeah um when i was gonna say it's it's kind of like in in that term when you're cooking you don't just take all the ingredients and your cabinet and put 'em on to one thing i mean sure there are recipes that <unk> not use all them but more than uh well it's not if you just grab every <unk> dumps <unk> it'll come out looking like a big <unk> yeah yeah and i want to say they're they're both of these things dubbed tail into what i think of as new blank and it's basically when you are obviously doing using things and putting in elements that you don't understand and doing things just because and not knowing the reason why you want want it in your language [noise] any mhm so <unk> well well just stay with me for a second <unk> <unk> <unk> and there's a worker parts and in any work apart whether it's painting whether it's writing or anything like that you just don't throw things and you have to sort of think carefully about things and have reasons and justification behind you know in a book why you have a certain <unk> minor character in there that you know what purpose do they serve what what are they telling about the story or about the <unk> other characters or what [noise] that's mm um or about the setting and uh uh <unk> what is the main thing is uh i would say if you are historically mind it at all how did this feature develop and most more importantly because of you know what kind of like if you are putting a feature in <unk> how is it used to you and then of course when you talking about words you have to think about carefully about just about every word think about do i want to have just one the station or should it have this chain of relationships like we talked about no in uh not the last episode but uh the the episode where we had david <unk> peterson [noise] you know making your were sort of not quite the same as english or even completely covering totally different some ethic space then [noise] whatever it is for me well i'm a couple of and say for me like first thing i look for is kind of like how similar is it your native language i mean if you how i mean if if someone <unk> nuts bronco and then i saw the word for birds <unk> i'd be like what are you doing this [laughter] one was um i mean not not too bad it's just i think that that has you know there's an um <unk> <unk> yeah it is [laughter] um yeah it makes me cry inside but whatever um as far as <unk> when i was kinda mm about when you were talking was um putting things and not mind why they're like i don't know if <unk> like not everybody is very historically mind the <unk> the big like jerk starvation so maybe they couldn't they say well why they're african a fear or maybe why do they use the i don't know why they're an excuse that are case well i mean there are limits the level of detail that you're going to be doing in your reasoning but i think yeah in general when you're talking about for medical futures where you're talking about things like the middle of voice mhm when you have middle voice in your in your con like don't dislike say okay there's a middle vice [laughter] that's that he'd have to say okay how do you use it okay i understand that yeah if you're making machine and you put a letter on the side they better do something it <unk> yeah <unk> yeah yeah i mean even if you're not prepared to say <unk> it's an art or if you're making an engineer language right you want a perfectly unambiguous language that simple to talk to robots mhm you still have design goals and everything you add to the language should first meet those <unk> designed goals and the second hopefully should not get into a big fight with other decisions you make earlier [laughter] yeah so so one thing that i brought up from time to time is the possibility of discussing one of my earlier <unk> on the show that i can complain about everything that i did wrong middle do <unk> and and and one of the characteristics features for <unk> for me at least things i felt i did wrong is i added features which there was no need for [noise] or when you have a completely free word order language i'm not sure why i needed all the divorce trickery i had [laughter] for example i don't eat all the voices that's with me for us um and i didn't know fully comprehend what you would use an indoor sports for but i mean i know there might be <unk> but but not not a deep understanding i have no um <unk> sometimes i i forget who was but some are done <unk> is good because that way if there is like a gap or if you don't hear something you can retrieve that information from the context are from somewhere else like uh if like um oh what's a good example probably grammatical gender yeah <unk> yeah and you know not everything is once it's there you don't you don't have to say it again but um but i can see like if you just turn him throw everything elderly nellie um you can come across that right i mean again there are different reasons for creating a <unk> if your purpose is treated language which simply consumes your diary from your little sister <unk> than it is probably not i mean no one is supposed to understand the language so it doesn't matter if you mostly you know relax you native language it's technically being a code right so i knew blaine is a little bit <unk> i mean in the context of the show we almost always mean people who are making naturalistic languages for artistic purposes obviously other <unk> can listen to us and learn interesting thing [noise] um hopefully in the middle voice for example you know imply things even for people who are engineering super logical languages um but new playing just like everything else we say relates to the purpose for the <unk> yeah i obviously that is a point to uh to reconcile but [noise] i think in general mhm i think in general the thing that would <unk> new blends together is well there are made by knew who see uh-huh have limited knowledge of it linguistics and they just make some mistakes in how they win what features they include in how they ah in ah how they create their dictionary and just it's just the the idea of a new blank is it just it has a bunch of uh odd misses that don't make sense what it's designed goals and just reveal that the creator is linguistically naive and some say so that's [noise] that's what i think of it as a new playing you know that's <unk> and that's not to say that we don't want new people creating <unk> yeah <unk> where where where we we just we did a show partly to help people make better <unk> when i was gonna mentioned earlier um in terms of you know new blinds is i don't think it's necessarily like uh like is this new blend yes or no i think there are aspects that may or may not be more common for a novice combine or to to do um i know that i like to cooking like i saw him cooks recipe and they do something out of box that will be someone who's relatively non experienced in it or someone who has had more experience or who has been more <unk> either formal training or just done it more maybe they see other um like other <unk> that line up well for um a concrete cooking example it's like when i uh one day decided to put paprika and my spaghetti sauce and realize that it was not the best choice [laughter] uh [noise] you know that that happens yeah plenty uh-huh [noise] so if we don't know from john how long have you been <unk> everyone makes new blame everyone everyone i've been makes new blanks they might make several <unk> in my okay hey i'm older than probably almost everyone listening to the show so all of my new buildings are gone a long long gone coupons moves that got thrown away so only i have fairly recent things and even one of those is not not really great unlike for example <unk> peterson who went through his all of them are themes phase and documented very colorful web page [laughter] that's hilarious yeah so for you to see everyone starts out everyone's going to make new blessings and it just like artists are constantly sketching and people who are not a cook have to do it a lot and make mistakes that only they will eat from time to time [noise] i think combining improves from practice so make a bunch of his lungs and better each time and be proud [laughter] don't freak out about it there's no human language [noise] in the most [noise] complicated things humans do [noise] hold on hold on [noise] whereas my phone [noise] i hear it [laughter] [laughter] yeah that's a better question [laughter] okay well rape it that's really unexpected anyway so starting over quick [laughter] which one [noise] [laughter] right [laughter] gone [noise] are <unk> are you in language is the most complicated thing humans do mhm we do it every day and we forget how difficult it is [noise] there's a long apprenticeship and being a <unk> if you're eighteen is really sophisticated naturalistic expressive result come together and when you take a lot of practice and a lot of time to learn how to do so each sketch you do focus on doing some things better okay he will still be <unk> that's that's uh i <unk> i know that um some of my early like some of my stuff like <unk> probably if i look back at it probably has a lot of things that i would do differently now um i know that i rio because i have revised it a couple of different times you know started out with stuff that was kind of not stuff i would do now [laughter] right i mean sometimes what language can be revised successfully without leaving a disaster too yeah i've had my first one i did a lot of kitchen thinking where i found something new and i'm like oh i don't know but this one and yeah yeah so i we're saying [noise] no i think we we run through this i mean everyone's gonna make new blanks if you're a beginner you're gonna make any blame that's just the way it is and think of all those new buildings as part of an apprenticeship mhm yeah sounds really gone into 'em or the wisdom enough of it too and and post all your embarrassing new things up on the the forums and stuff and don't take it too personally when people criticize them because that will help you get better yeah uh-huh um so that's done with why don't you william what are your final words of wisdom for this episode you know it was just thinking how much i hate the word wasted [noise] [laughter] well i don't either [laughter] i don't know inspiration something like that so i got this language that i've been working on now for just over a year oh hi uh-huh entities only now in the last few weeks that i'm really feeling that i'm producing vocabulary that's interesting and rich ooh huh i wanna make voice here that took a year to get too i think a lot of people try to produce languages too quickly and they they follow joined his advice and post them too quickly you know rush unless someone hired you two invented language for you [laughter] million dollar um movie or t._v. production take your time it's okay the results are better yes [laughter] okay and mike [noise] uh i'd say don't feel the new blind um you know it happens and sometimes you know great interesting they've come out of there i don't think it's like a scarlet letter to be one by the columbine er i think it's just eventually your language will become either you know they'll become more um natural feeling if you're going for natural mess or if you're going with an engineering and smack engineer lying or an <unk> no more they'll achieve the golden are looking for more efficiently so um experience in practice and um try to save your old <unk> online so you get that you can always look back at them and be like oh look what i did and hey my even even tokens earliest languages were kind of <unk> yeah [laughter] and just before we go i will clarify one thing i don't mean make your first language make a fool number of it and then posted on line i think [noise] started making it and post sort of stretches and stuff on forums and stuff and [noise] ask specific question that's an important [noise] because you'll [noise] of that way you will attract people to know about some specific thing some specific teachers and they will be able to answer your questions better [noise] [noise] yeah <unk> it's difficult yeah beyond that i'm just wanting to say happy time like you have been listening to con lying or you can find the <unk> all previous episodes at <unk> dot com including links to our future <unk> online and a few resources to help you make sense of today's topic you're also find links to subscribe to us on high tuned or through on her <unk> to our quarter face book and google plus pages and a whole lot more questions commonsense suggestions may be sent to <unk> dot com you can also submit those translated greetings we played the popular show or con scripted display in our head er police even contribute paid for details [noise] thanks for listening [noise] whenever he saw that guy would say bowling that's really weird because i had a great aunts that would say <unk> all the time for what just like that table it was it was just a funny thing that she said apparently uh before my time um unfortunately she had a monkey maimed albert from what i understand albert was not always good tempered he liked to bite people oh gees and um and she knew that like <unk> and uh and like protective clothing if she was going to change his diaper i think it's awesome that he was name [noise] [noise] [noise] [noise] did you just you know i just got on the floor so i was just looking at navajos verbs today so it's funny that i mentioned bowling because the <unk> for to jump or hop additionally used in verb phrases referring to being sexually interested in things [laughter] i think that's including including a special <unk> over a bit too mean be a friend boy essentially needs to go out and look for sex and since no that that was the main part of the not a whole lifestyle [laughter] it may not be a main part but somebody [laughter] if another hold on to they've got to vote for things is always important in any culture so [laughter] [laughter] for our next condon welding episode equally best thing so um [noise] my age i have discovered sometimes that papers about linguistics they give examples from languages the um [noise] person doesn't actually no they just found it in an article somewhere else so are we going to try to keep it below eighty two minutes this time [noise] i don't know [laughter] i <unk> i mean i don't care honestly i was on ah i'm just going to <unk> do what i always do it and let the the discussion run as long as i feel at yet c._d.s are so the first decade of the two thousand that anyway so it's i even thought about doing stuff like um putting out lower quality versions for because we do have bandwidth impaired people we might want to put out like sixteen feel a bit stuff but ah bandwidth impaired that sounds very p._c. it does it sounds like you've messenger but anyway [noise] all right so in three two when people stop dropping things [laughter] william guidance a better word than <unk> where's the guidance yeah that sounds like a teacher i have a problem with the word wise and then i think it it to me almost always when people use the word wiser wisdom <unk> their way of approving of something very been all did they already believe <unk> for the middle yet [laughter] [laughter]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. Burushaski
  4. conlang
  5. language
  6. linguistics
  7. mediopassive
  8. middle voice

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 58 Practicum — Things you can do with the Middle Voice (last edited 2017-09-08 01:43:52 by TranscriBot)