Conlangery #65: Tayéin

Conlangery #65: Tayéin

Published: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 04:00:49 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 i also do these <unk> calling around though she <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> and i did [noise] welcome to online or is <unk> but the language is the people who <unk> really [noise] um [noise] with me down to the root of ways i could actually hop on a bus and get to his house right now is william and [noise] [noise] hello [noise] uh and uh [noise] uh where are you my grade now you're you're up in new jersey still back in new jersey oh okay so let's make blend team and we have a special gasp or this episode that eric and uh uh say hello or two people [laughter] uh that's uh well you'll find out why our ex on in a little bit but i want to make a couple of <unk> first of all if you guess by the way introduced william i am in wisconsin now i'm i'm living in madison wisconsin i haven't started classes yet um but i'm sort of getting my bearings and applying for jobs and uh getting to know my little corner of town that i'm in uh very close to campus actually so that's yet he's also everybody in countries who speaks mandarin [laughter] i've made a few chinese friends huh main landers or from taiwan elsewhere uh a couple of taiwanese people i met on the bus but uh mostly uh main lenders mm um anyway yeah that's that's just that's just a one of my things but [noise] that helps me practice chinese too too randomly chat up ah chinese people uh [noise] and uh the other thing um [noise] oh no we aren't doing we are being william in the same room like i wanted to to record uh but some day we may do that i don't know we'll have to get their logistics arrange for that but it may be a while because um william uh is possibly going to take a break for the <unk> from the show for a while william you want to explain a little bit i just want a little break that's a few months [laughter] you know research this that or the other thing is would would be nice so i'm going to take a break okay well that's not expected dirty permanent break but i just i just need a few more yeah to focus on other things so that's <unk> yeah so williams ghana um as soon as we can uh bigger up a replacement i i have contacted some people already so don't be blowing up my email for wanting to be a a host on the show but um [laughter] i have i have my people picked out but i want to to uh to uh do that my list but um [noise] uh let's <unk> <unk> it it it will be a little difficult without you william because you've carried the show for so long but ah we will survive i think yeah i think so yeah [laughter] um but anyway that's uh all the little housekeeping announcements that i wanted to do um anyway um let's get on with the show shall we this is a future con line episode as is every other episode um uh we have ah oh with us so i already introduced eric and uh and <unk> is the creator of our featured on line for today which is tight game uh i hope i'm pronouncing that correctly yeah or like i <unk> yeah i think it was uh really well um will get into a little bit on on uh what i'm thinking about when i'm trying to pronounce that but um [noise] why don't you introduce yourself first um how you got into <unk> and then um give us your your sort of elevator pitch on tiring uh so yeah i guess i got into coming in high school like eight years ago uh latin class <unk> japanese parents got any book um <unk> which is friend told me that was brought up so there's a lot of like next to each of language stuff and so i just started crying howling which are really horrible uh had three <unk> each of which that on single side uh we usually paper wow [laughter] [noise] clearly not very uh um yeah so eventually like two thousand eight <unk> um <unk> um i started learning <unk> car and said and that lasted through all college mm so last year oh um i was like i don't know what do you go over the summer so uh randomly tried out again and found those <unk> um <unk> and i'm there and and third or something i started creating type game recorder reschedule from there um there was a month i had certain albums version and by the end of the year the beta version without mhm this is second to beta um um oh okay yeah i'm a <unk> that's my introduction [laughter] i'm surprised that you got into <unk> uh what you said eight years ago that would be like a thousand for and you didn't find the forums at that time you didn't find them until two sides neat yeah well i i remember a friend of mine um passing in the hall oh how do you do something or other so my friend 'cause this is the internet a. h. google search and pretty much when actually <unk> [laughter] yeah well well i live on the internet so um what <unk> assistance to find the <unk> i i was grew around um trying to find a new car lying forums it took me three or four tries to actually find one [laughter] yeah i mean time uh distracted by oh here's a cool article on something cool [laughter] [laughter] yeah just a normal level look internet distraction yes yes yes well there's certain parts of the internet ken ken turn into a black hole of distraction like you know t._v. trips but do you know in general it's always very distracting um anyway so talking about tiring specifically now um so you have an effective grammar up which still has a bunch of notes and it looks like it's sort of uh a document in progress um but like uh yeah yeah well the al <unk> but i mean the the this this isn't like a a finished edition of the the grammer it's it's sort of an intermediary document what'd you say yeah yeah um i stick with the hassle putting my <unk> i <unk> i don't even care fun isn't it okay um i was very interested in your um uh so i always kind of start with looking at the phonology and i see you know it's the the funding and mentor is not is is fairly simple it has german it's but uh uh it and it has some odd or <unk> i i and yeah and oh oh in sort of all [noise] you know i'm <unk> um it i don't think it's that uncommon it's just <unk> they strike me as odd uh william william may may say oh george or stiffer but ah [noise] no i would never say such a thing [laughter] um one thing i'm very curious about is what exactly it is going on with the tunnel system because the the way that you describe it makes me makes it sound like there is syllables that have tone and syllables that don't have town which seems like a weird way to do it um what what exactly is going on when i was there some syllable goals are marked tone in some of <unk> um okay so <unk> we'll be real ice differently so i figure in this day and her dialect mark is hi <unk> <unk> it's just like mm okay is this kind of pitch accent system like ancient greek or i think i <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> from what i could figure out about what it's accent is i decided not to go with that just caught <unk> two local town okay okay but <unk> so the name of the language that have a tone on the accented <unk> yeah yeah yeah it it's it's it's faded in here that you're you're a cute accent is is mark town so what is the then what happens in on mark tone is that the i guess you have a section on tons sense sunday around is it just that the <unk> tone has some contour that feeds into marked homes or what um [noise] to put any <unk> yeah oh uh <unk> figure it out so far is if you have um <unk> smart that's uh um high and high falling okay so yeah i'm just i'm just curious as uh sorry go ahead i'm just curious as to what the <unk> tone does because like i know in in in <unk> and there's a neutral town and i'm kinda thinking you're on a mark tone is just sort of like the neutral tone which is in men are it's like a continuation of the tone of less syllable or or just sort of like in the middle somehow but i don't know what is that how you envision you're neutral tone or have you really figured that out yet or what [noise] it's just in the middle and it's just sort of you know okay all right um i do have um you do have a <unk> a good bit of uh yeah cindy process you have very uh very uh well defined fun uh tactics and very odd fonda tactics <unk> i i imagine that if we we got uh do you have audio samples anywhere or can you produced paying lives uh because i have a feeling it would have a very unique sound to it because of the way the <unk> um <unk> uh <unk> oh okay i'll have to pull the <unk> um i can produce it but i would have to <unk> [laughter] okay that was one of the points in the design was uh i went to the <unk> you know really quite simple but then when it with <unk> and it messed up the next level of war mhm [noise] um so <unk> before we go too much further you give us a little background i mean there's a somewhat complicated in world background yeah for this language do you want to touch on that a little bit is that even still don't play i mean yeah it's just so much in the back burner and things change as i learned plate that cox uh [laughter] okay [laughter] you know i mean sure <unk> what any good chance there'll be a <unk> something else [noise] <unk> yeah well i mean it's spoken <unk> called <unk> and which <unk> ah um origin story starting to change but the point is that actually am a darn mixes up a bunch of different ethnic good linguistic scrooge linguistic group um <unk> out of that they try and naturally get shoot <unk> at the very slowly <unk> mm how realistic um um okay so um have you done historical work on tiring or um well i know a couple of <unk> but i'm doing it the way that you guys don't recommend which is build your target language as and work backwards from it [laughter] i'm fine i'm <unk> i'm <unk> yeah it's just a matter of back and forth i think it expected 'cause most of us desire language with it and go uh very particular and goal in mind and i don't think it's obviously insane to sometimes wanna work backwards from that with the little little mixing match going on yeah you <unk> there's nothing necessarily wrong with working backwards i think starting with your <unk> your and point and then working backwards as a little bit harder but that's yeah that's that's all it is um like when you're in which is <unk> yeah no i'm horrible 'cause i just went forward with no goal <unk> yeah i mean i think i <unk> uh the little bit of historical work i've done [noise] came out of figuring out a little bit about my and go and making a few words and then figuring out what sound changes create those words um anyway i do have your your ah sounds sample now i had you uh download it and pull it up so um i'm going to play that little <unk> and um i'm not hearing anything on your end i'm not hearing anything at all those weird what kind of nice huh i don't know i just saw a green barr show i was like oh it's it's it's probably just a very low level stuff um but uh we won't hear [noise] anyway um let's let's listen to a little bit of pain huston salmon is down on that <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> she's in <unk> that he can hot [noise] yeah [noise] okay so that's pretty good i mean that sounds quite fluid and flew in for something that you [laughter] a little hesitant to produce spontaneously mm yeah well i did practice that it took me i want to say half an hour to an hour to produce that that's all [laughter] you didn't spend all day just [laughter] but it's just that you know you try a line and then <unk> then you stop [noise] restart instantly you didn't really know <unk> <unk> <unk> oh now that's <unk> i'm actually trying to <unk> sect of grammar and the phonetics or a close enough um but there have been changes in the grammar and syntax that subtly affects us <unk> nice okay so that's a that's an earlier version then yeah okay this is the tone structure pretty much the same time you should be the same <unk> it's not <unk> that much so i'm not messing with them here it out much either alright yeah i didn't really hear the tone that much really tonal stuff in that so i i i'm sure if i went back and listen to a few times i could i could attuned myself too but um [noise] uh i don't know a total language mm [laughter] like <unk> but <unk> it ended up under exaggerating <unk> heard um you speaker is a linguistics electric i had no business getting mhm mm mm yeah beginners can over chew on their tones when they're first limiting and that's certainly true yeah yeah [laughter] um [noise] one who's had mandarin it's like yeah yeah [laughter] i would i would suggest like not even listened to mandarin speakers but find the language that has like a two tone system and listen to that because you having just the two different tones and the the the rather odd interesting choices of tones as well um one thing i find is that the more distinctive tones you have the sort of wider the tone space in someone's speech is because like when i when you listen to mandarin speakers uh even when you hear them speak english there they're intonation is not that wacky uh but when you listen to uh someone with a cantonese accent speaking english there intonation goes all over the place and it's because it's a little bit i've listened to mandarin native mannered speakers speak cantonese native cantonese speakers speak mandarin and you can tell by the way that they pronounce the tones <unk> which which side they come from [laughter] yeah one good example to tone languages <unk> or <unk> yeah so anyway we don't get too hung up on just one teacher for knowledge <unk> oh yeah we've we've talked a lot about <unk> and i i don't wanna be labor uh too much so we can we can talk a little bit on other points uh i don't know william did you have any <unk> um <unk> the grammar i do have what kind of <unk> it's got nice total charts that probably clarified which clarify la <unk> i suppose we should mention to listen or is that there are a bunch of documents um they get on the website where tiring exist and we're mostly going to be working from the effect of grammar but there are a bunch of other things um i actually like to talk so go ahead do to read to me and they're so <unk> <unk> i've never had a language would read me what a great idea [laughter] [laughter] [noise] anyway um the reason i wanted to go back to to talk about in world history a little bit is because it different points of the grammar you talk about which <unk> this or that features coming from so i thought that was interesting um uh-huh yeah yeah the tuning inputs are choosing and uh which uh partly mispronounce and our <unk> she doesn't happen mhm um i honestly just randomly pick one or the other i have no idea where you're coming from [laughter] okay [laughter] um [laughter] my one of my favorite things is you have throughout this thing you uh stick in uh references to other dialects so like your your your grammar document is on sort of a general standard a standard uh tiring but you will point out that this is different in this or that dialect yeah throughout the ah grammer ah i'm gonna <unk> mhm [noise] i do all too now i have a lot of <unk> uh-huh mhm that's cool yeah 'cause they're all spread out i don't know what i've done for dialects i'm gonna have to like collate them at some point oh dear yeah oh yeah you should you should you should put like at least like a list for each of the dialects to to put down the specific dialect specific creatures they're yeah they're so they don't have that for your notes that might also fire i build some geography which is a penn state that comics again [laughter] wow [laughter] <unk> [laughter] yeah that well i think um when we mentioned um we didn't mention <unk> but we when we did our episode on <unk> on worlds we did kind of talk about geography really affects um not well it affects where dialects form where boundaries between languages are and all that kind of thing um just little interesting things i i it seems like you have a very good i for all the little details that you can make to make your your your con line just that much more interesting 'cause i notice like in <unk> uh when you have zero of something you use the singular whereas like english uses the plural um yeah that that kind of caught my eye on it uh um i'm sure that's something that occurs and hoping languages it's just uh i'm the way you foreign <unk> little uh wacky in the first place it's it's a very uh sort of interesting uh complicated um morphine uh in in that it has a few different things that it does to the spam and such as for one of the mountain systems i think they're actually three now the systems in place mm oh okay that's for the two languages <unk> like exploded or something so you oh okay <unk> senior plural um sort of some how's that you think he was a collective third that like come on <unk> oh okay is there any like is there any semantic there is this that or is okay yeah i'm section on now is probably the best part of grammar mhm [noise] i had like nothing else to do during that time [laughter] [laughter] i was thinking about it uh-huh oh every <unk> every time i introduced new on online la la la all these things fall into the category but there are exceptions exception yeah what what motivated the the semantics split for them classes that you came up with 'cause i'm i'm not sure i've encountered anything like that in a natural language of course someone will post to comment explaining that is what can you go into that a little bit and explain what your i mean what inspired that was that just you were feeling in the mood that day or what um [noise] there's someone who was i was in um yeah that sort of philosophical um goal sort of not <unk> that's really misleading but i guess we'll for something that you know probably liquids are <unk> yeah that makes sense you look at the actual distinctions with me again mhm well what <unk> what so what so okay the the categories are counting down in mass now correct and form now oh for sure i'm now <unk> yeah <unk> okay which is okay which is a a different thing um so you you split those two three things i have not heard of any language that has anything like form now as far as i'm looking at um oh yeah the thing the thing with them is that he he i think you are collective or dime but they can also part of the political uh-huh interesting okay anyway as you were saying yeah so yeah so like foreign ounce [noise] <unk> yes yeah <unk> are more likely to be for math you know solid objects are more likely to be ouch mhm i must have really like a grain of sand mhm mhm i don't think i think that the word sand yes um maybe the weirdest <unk> because i use a lot of different sort of <unk> um and the interaction ways [noise] mhm [noise] now you sort of expect weird interactions to happen once you have multiple classes of non weird interactions i <unk> i can't imagine how you would avoid it [laughter] now are the <unk> <unk> just uh determined what class there are like each down as a certain class by by nature or could you use them like say if you're talking about grain of sand like five grand to send to use the one form and then for nuns would be for a different form looking in a hour class um i think there are qualifier there's an dull stuff like <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> okay i haven't really done that so you so you don't really have uh you don't use the the <unk> classes in any sort of derivation away yeah it's just it's just that <unk> property of the now yeah but well it'll influence um <unk> and <unk> like if you turn an advocate too and now it becomes a one of the three forums depending i can't remember why it becomes want us to three uh does does it depend on the specific <unk> morphology use or or what um you mean morphology adjective <unk> yeah <unk> well like um what what aspects you tack onto it or whatever i can't remember all the ways to terrorize him down from stuff sorry edging yeah no that's okay i mean it it just it just sounds to me like a gender system that still has enough semantics hanging around it that that you can make some generalization yeah yeah well do you normally don't see it you know plural paradigm shifts between genders i guess that's true that's true um right civil called them down classes for noon yeah absolutely yeah um i'm i'm almost in i i i most almost inclined just to call them different decline <unk> because i don't know do you have any agreement or anything um i don't think i'd agreements with now yeah they have a great is pocket of mhm interesting <unk> evocative their shaun <unk> actually because nor i rang um usually if i have audio input it'll be from the show [laughter] so i'm sure uh looking to will talking about greedy grammer like i don't know how do you <unk> so i greedy [laughter] so what feature grammar was <unk> um <unk> where is that interesting yeah we're oval <unk> <unk> thirty seven and i think that's the uh [noise] i also have for example <unk> uh-huh which is why i had to write it on page thirty seven you'd just for the question a bucket it's too late or construction do a later oh section maybe it's level [noise] [noise] yeah oh okay so they just uh fifty four fifty for a first well so the chance that shakespeare for example [laughter] oh okay so so but what you did was you took so you took a pro nominal <unk> and those also uh uh existence <unk> then well sort of go in the bucket announced philips years um the <unk> is <unk> subject object normally <unk> appears particle position just act or so you might get some weird confusion going on if you just throw a rocket isn't there a market for <unk> um is a positive pronoun free fixed up to the <unk> after nifty mhm okay and i like i like i like using yes good but how do you say hey let's go [laughter] look out do you have to our trip to do you have to tell them to look out before you get to the <unk> i <unk> i have not done much i've been discourse level okay um i don't know what's the um dangerous register sounds like okay [laughter] i always say i i was glad i was able to to <unk> i was just remembering i had a friend who did field work in a part of africa where they have elephant in the jungle and they're very very dangerous and she always remembers a certain biography phrase which basically man hey moron but it's sort of bigger than that [laughter] stop moving quiet [noise] um which is seems like a useful for us to have [noise] um so that's nice so greedy grammar good good greedy grammar and type in that but now i can't use my computer without sending key clicks through the microphone ooh [laughter] uh problem we get we get lots of little cliques now [noise] um so yeah basically that's <unk> interesting that's that's a great way to uh through that in it is an odd thing to have your <unk> your <unk> be in a particular place but i guess [noise] um well there's analytical i got more on there there are um i can understand uh things to say you could do that for um looking at your dictionary dictionaries format it very nicely um it's uh actually not in the amount of source good that went into it huh [laughter] yeah <unk> yeah um you and you also have some some very interesting long sort of <unk> definitions uh like you have and even like some some interesting things that go with your your classes or whatever like ah what do you <unk> been two originate to spring and it says usually exclusively with foreign <unk> almost always takes and for a mule pushed position of phrase <unk> indicating source when used without a push position the subject is applied to be an endless supply i love it when when <unk> actually have some usage notes on some of their words because it's mhm it helps to uh define it and and and set it into a a more sort of a unique position rather than just ending up relaxing uh an <unk> ah being a loss for an english word or something [noise] yeah well i think a lot of that is i've never consider dictionary all that and <unk> and then <unk> <unk> in d._c. you got to thinking that into my head like since the beginning of the universe that's the dictionary as the language so [laughter] <unk> and on <unk> look at it it has a different meaning if you do the transit simply mhm <unk> oh definition you're at outlets entranced yvonne yeah oh okay yeah and <unk> there's a separate entry for the uh transit one thing i might suggest this is you do the like super script wanting to when you have two different countries um but but i <unk> i word but because because of <unk> well i guess in the dictionary how i'm doing is that ah actually keep all this data in an excel spreadsheet mhm uh okay hold for stuff like cross referencing word shapes with definitions mhm so i end up just putting um how many <unk> some different line mhm oh okay east l._a. tech where magic happens and [noise] [noise] oh yes uh akron understand math and um so you know standard <unk> three to five years oh actually build um a dictionary program that works and does everything <unk> yeah <unk> yes yes we get on that is [laughter] yeah [noise] mm well just whatever you're doing just stop whatever you're doing your job and do that right now for us because we live [laughter] we need you might get mine my grad school [laughter] [laughter] no but uh [laughter] uh 'cause every every on the gulf and academic level my g._p._a. breeds mhm oh wow yeah i think that it's happened to my <unk> but [noise] [noise] hello hello hello [laughter] sorry you're breaking up mad mad <unk> [laughter] i don't know what i was trying to say there but <unk> you're breaking up quite a veteran [laughter] kind of um difficult for us to keep uh the the dialogue going but um it is very interesting um [noise] uh i i uh but without what's that one little cab yet i really do really like your um dictionary it seems like it tells me all the stuff that i need to know about uh any particular word i happened to look up um you have some i don't know and you have some selected stuff that you haven't really defined yet it looks like you're going to give the basic colors in terms of actually taking a um um like an art g._b. slot chart and cutting it up right well so yeah so you're in selecting like sitcom fiction so now i've i've finished card you know our t._v. more or less i mean <unk> i can <unk> uh three dimensional color states into the two dimensional document uh-huh uh-huh [noise] turning it up i just need to find names all the little pieces mm yeah but it looks like <unk> i <unk> i see you have you have sort of red yellow green blue do you have <unk> are you distinguishing blew in light blue or is that just white a white i just signed in this white sign <unk> oh okay so that works um i i like that you did that though 'cause you can see fairly clearly how how these people talk about color um where are you what are you looking at um <unk> yeah oh he doesn't have he doesn't have names for it but he has the space divided up a little misleading obviously the distinctions or not it's fine grand as i've drawn to lose their yeah yeah i was using it used to tell her pick her because you will get optical illusion with all the colors sitting right next to each other yeah mhm oh yeah [laughter] so our speakers imagined to be mostly human not humid at all um basically situations more like newman door where they're a bunch of <unk> and a whole lot of inter racial stuff shenanigans okay well it depends on the origin story which i haven't nailed down yet mhm <unk> yeah <unk> <unk> yeah yeah i don't know the um the the um sounds sample you gave sounded a little bit elvis to me but i didn't want to say that uh earlier because i didn't want to you to take it the wrong way anyway oh well um i like i mentioned i started <unk> learn so yeah i wonder how much room but i need to try and figure out something new to do with themselves which is hard mm yeah it's it is uh the they've been played <unk> it almost feels like they've been played out in so much fantasy that you don't know what to do with them [laughter] mhm so but the i learnt them into mall rats [laughter] yes i'd for a good idea i've never really finished where i turned to all the elves and two eternal living mall rats [laughter] i have <unk> that's with fashion and oh no not us well william i have to ah show you the story where incorporated your <unk> and see what you like what do you think about that um i haven't i haven't finished that story either but i uh i got a good start on um anyway um we backtrack from the dictionary and go back to the verbs a little bit sure yeah sure let's let's talk about verbs a bit so eric what was your inspiration for the verbs because there are one or two interesting thing i mean it's surprising things that you do there in particular i'm interested in the fact that you have a specialty <unk> mood which is just used for um it looks like um dependency with certain motive verbs yeah actually had a hard time remembering <unk> supposed to do i used to have an <unk> haven't ended up using it that much oh which <unk> it was a poor choice well something is that something that just when i actually like lisa full version okay yeah it's only two years to agree with <unk> <unk> it covers situation the possibility necessity permission obligation [noise] yeah um i don't know i think uh mood is um all the tests aspect moods and really any grammatical concept you need to have some you need to pull up some examples and see and think about how you're going to use it but i think mood is especially just because it's so tricky because no language actually just uses the moods just for their core meaning there's always little mood tricks that have on different meanings and stuff [noise] um [noise] the they may have some special uh things having to do with uh when there's a serial verb or or there's uh uh some more than a clause or they may have some special interaction with ten sore aspect or something but yeah you just need to you need to play around with uh your sentences and figure out what your mood you're gonna do well and he said he finds he's not using it so [laughter] yeah so maybe maybe that's something you know cut it was actually more maybe you'll find the use for it somewhere um the <unk> that aspect stuff is really funky because it seems like i missed a mix of aspect [noise] and <unk> being marks there which is interesting yeah well what's actually [noise] so in my japanese i had a really hard time um actually remembering <unk> either <unk> or a farm and [laughter] i know when i should use it <unk> everything out of our time line it's it's i <unk> take the time and figure out where all the <unk> um no which one i'm sign on the moslem in the <unk> same <unk> okay i'm taking two japanese so i'm not familiar with that uh well it's usually stayed in <unk> shape or form or not in my um <unk> <unk> okay so but i usually i pay for the main herb and then you add form of the word go uh you're you're out it's interactive <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> oh yeah yes uh aspects [noise] especially since i read it by the fact that i didn't watch did you perfected enter effective uh-huh um okay but i still like language is <unk> that aspect i mean it must be <unk> cut all bourbon collection you probably don't have that in there so nothing really caught my eye on what you pay each and they started doing my japanese heinlein <unk> thing uh uh <unk> different things on time line see how like we'll <unk> we'll way of describing it that there's an aspect part and uh topics park because mhm you decide between either <unk> or <unk> aspect um depending on what we can time you want to focus on in um attack and fortunately i don't have very that exact with that mm mm it's an interesting it's an interesting mix of of things to do i mean you do have aspect because you've already said you have the the new make aspect is also use for habitual actions and well actually i'm <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah you are thrown in no make or <unk> it seem like a separate little substance that practice me like [laughter] <unk> it's a fun thing um i mean i do like again that that hungry some grammar that you that you've got um the ritual ultimate being used for sort of distressing [noise] so that's what we're saying no make gee i know him i see is is used indicate sort of general universally true things [noise] um which by the way it completely opposite decision that ancient greek with with which it use something like a productive for the no money mhm well yeah it doesn't matter i mean any language can pick like does your <unk> make sense to them they didn't do good oh yeah there you one can easily imagined a modern day <unk> defending his theories based on his single u._f._o. experience you can knock [laughter] that was [laughter] the pattern as well [laughter] it just just case of some of the stuff on a lot of the grammar is sit down at <unk> and i search on aspect looking they charge of aspects like ooh i have this aspect instead adding an aspect figure out a construction that will convey that aspect good yeah i like um this is just basically just notes area but it looks like you're planning on having boats verb <unk> verb copiers and non verbal <unk> or <unk> and calculus but are not like verbs uh do you have any plant any other now it's like well you may or may not do that i'm near may not have any idea what i'm doing [laughter] okay so then i won't i won't directly ah ask you a question about it but uh uh hopefully that i didn't <unk> this is not unusual you can get all sorts of things especially demonstrative pronouns mm demonstrative programs turning into um copy of it was so you get all sorts of weird things that look kind of like conjugation butter and really agreements um [laughter] but [noise] you know can't be tends to because of the complements weird the first place so i mean the the interesting question to me i mean it's not obviously insane that you might have multiple kinds of <unk> <unk> point then becomes what's the use cases what do you use one four versus one versus another yeah but in this case it's just um whether it be um whether they're instructional <unk> close to being pretty or whether they're just completely not all <unk> pattern see it's just all these little design decision or something and then there's uh semantic slight semantics <unk> distinction mhm yeah looks like you have some notes that you're gonna put some some ethic distinctions in er [noise] um [noise] i don't think i'm going to be [noise] i just noticed i might put <unk> like like oh every from probably keep them huh that's interesting huh um and um uh you have i don't know you have posts positions and only apparently yeah so so <unk> is wrong according to universal we yeah we are i don't know i i would i would have it i mean that was one of the first things i thought that's unusual but i don't know that i'm not prepared to say there is no human language that has that where there's no <unk> apparently extremely uncommon yeah yeah well no well don't worry about it though because any language will have some type a logical fuzzy <unk> yeah i only saw a lot out after i'd already um chili's and the <unk> [laughter] yeah i always hate it when my discover that oh i did too [laughter] that is a serious fight with the verbal language or something like that yeah [laughter] yeah as long as you can i think there there's like reasons why those supply prep positions and and verb a natural tend to go together and as long as you have well even when it does create ambiguity that's not necessarily a bad thing but you know as long as it's not you know causing serious syntax problems of going to be fine it's just it it'll it'll cause syntax to go in all directions and i don't think i can't think of um syntax like a word order <unk> and all those positions with the n. word [noise] any more ambiguous than um proposition <unk> most of your um mhm yeah [noise] i think it's more <unk> not necessarily ambiguity but uh the structured and be aware but that's fine there's plenty of languages that or even weirder you know yeah em [laughter] just just good you know you already picked it just go with that i think i don't think there's any reason you should you should have any need to change that it's it's cool the way it is um uh and perform <unk> distinguish person and number um some <unk> uh <unk> <unk> <unk> there's i think i <unk> <unk> what is it <unk> <unk> uh pro adjective um such okay got it [laughter] that's <unk> actually eat such as <unk> or <unk> <unk> <unk> oh [noise] oh okay i guess <unk> <unk> <unk> verbs are useful but i think um um george <unk> like [noise] and this this like a bunch of people have this trade that like you independence and <unk> [laughter] i have no idea what's going on theoretically there [laughter] and such a i guess it means it means something similar to et cetera but yeah i mean <unk> <unk> yeah i don't know it's it's i'm i'm sure um if <unk> if <unk> there's professional linguists in the audience they could uh they could take my speech and analyze oh what what my use of in such is uh and and figure out what it probably has some discourse meaning i don't think anybody's interested enough to do that right now but [laughter] someone or whatever you underwear [laughter] if you have taken the time to transcribe con larry episodes for linguistics work well please send me those transcripts 'cause some people would like to read them [laughter] [laughter] just designing sort of jumping around one thing that that struck me um on page fifty one you have different kinds of <unk> that's interesting fun things can happen there in natural languages um probably i don't i can't think of a natural language that distinguishes all of these identity essence state classification location but certainly [noise] um you may get clumps of those in various breakdown so that's interesting i mean just notes here but it's good that you thought about i think is that truly was i couldn't figure out where do you which ordered put stuff in um [noise] i don't know if it's new to air but there's a new in discourse so yeah age fifty five i think mhm um bring up a couple of <unk> about um um <unk> those <unk> depending on how <unk> how <unk> an series the ordering wish to cook the answer is given it can have different focus were <unk> sure oh okay that makes sense [laughter] it looks cool [noise] yeah yeah i see you just have sort of in english <unk> philosophy examples but ah yeah that's good <unk> worried or during the <unk> [noise] mhm yeah they can be weird they can they can be quite strange especially if you haven't known like popular than all sorts of funky news can falling from that so um <unk> <unk> little stuff like can you switch order or knobs mhm and then what are some of them just to be um what constituents does he take it on [noise] maybe you can tell the difference right right i mean as you mentioned something like that just reminds me that another thing that's interesting about this grammar that you written as opposed to many common grammar you include bad examples right yeah example that are that are marked incorrect just to just as a point of contrast which is neat oh yeah the the on grammatical examples i i didn't even think about that but yeah you have he does have that uh there was another <unk> did have that and that's when spy or to uh yeah um yeah i think oregon yeah it was gonna say i think that was i agree yeah it's carson becker's language you he included a lot of this is bad [noise] um and i notice that in the sort of in the world to discussion to language you talked about language you know you're talking about school teachers being upset about changes in grammar of the language which amused me [laughter] and that's that's true in english even if you're you know how to learn english teacher it seems like it should be an important thing i'm like oh i think i think probably most uh languages where there's any level of sort of writing education going on the there's some some odd stuff like that i mean you know yeah the academy <unk> and stuff like that well that would be the case that's a special case nobody no we haven't have you know um exercises into nato form you know lamenting the horrible grammar of the current generation so [laughter] [noise] <unk> helped me old ancient pastime <unk> please tell me somebody has translations of those that i can read sure um for for a while you could um get a tee shirt that said <unk> in um uh katie and describe who does not know sue marion what kind of sky busy [laughter] [laughter] that was from i forget the company there's uh a publishing house that special is er a bookstore that specializes in ancient near eastern stuff than they are funny [laughter] um holiday um and especially april fools things we've we've done a little strange um similar anything else you want to talk about it i went to a grammar i was going to ask <unk> at the end to mention you know if there's anything that we missed that he thought it was especially important but we haven't been added a while now yeah i was just going to put in the last call for for for things people want to say about <unk> and um it um mike do you have any questions for eric or might have them off and again that's weird huh [laughter] skates thinks he's on your on i don't know uh well uh we'll we'll just i'll just go ahead and give you your last word um [laughter] mike is seriously trying to to let us know that <unk> they're um ah i'll i'll see if he can figure out how to get his mike turned back on and uh uh eric you can point out is who i was with any any little interesting things that you think we missed um i don't know we didn't go <unk> i can't <unk> i also can't remember anything about this tax [laughter] i think i'll go ahead er the grammar didn't seem to have that much syntax and it did it maybe that's something that's a little sketchy in a little bit mostly overhead or something like yeah they're very right [laughter] it was funny um i'm sorry to interrupt but um i was just about say you asked me for employment and that's i know i've been kind of quiet this whole time and you guys like hello mike [laughter] [laughter] but um [noise] i don't know what i'm saying um i know i've been kinda quiet this whole time but i really do enjoy hearing uh you know a timeline or speak about their <unk> online and just i'm more like looking at what you're saying in a <unk> um we're gonna observer than uh poking in dissecting kinda guy but um i think that it's really really green really allowed to leave laid out the ah the grammar and it seems very nice and clear to read through so um short answer not owning your own no i don't have any other questions but it's just uh i love hearing about it and it's great [noise] okay uh and then again back to irk you said uh you you wanted to mention some syntax stuff but you weren't exactly sure what what to talk about for that <unk> well i think perjury textbooks um sketchy is because um i haven't finished um moving all the syntax from the rest of his grammar particularly um passive are completely ignore the fact of grammar you're just in the reference grammar which were <unk> a pain to read um oh okay i think i would pass as thrown in <unk> which are really well and it had with <unk> or <unk> oh okay well um yeah i i notice any change the uh the way you put together you're grammar between the reference grammar and your current effective grammar is the first one or the reference grammar was sort of ah a traditional um uh phonology yeah well you break it down by fields a little bit and then the uh uh with phonology and <unk> morphology <unk> and then on the affective grammar i think he took the like the sills style grammar where you have word level and uh sentence level and discourse level and stuff um silly stuff mhm i didn't <unk> i still used to that <unk> something similar to that yeah mhm just uh program this line but yeah there's there is quite a bit more <unk> there is uh a whole section of syntax in the reference grammar i see now so is there anything you would want to point out um about i don't know you mentioned uh passes it looks like you have two different types of passengers oh you're in reference grammar yeah [noise] those were [noise] i <unk> i know there is um <unk> <unk> <unk> one or the other um um you have the implicit and the explicit if i'm looking at the right thing oh yeah oh it's i don't want it says the the <unk> pass relation expresses that the agent or daughter has a strong responsibility whether good or bad that's kind of yeah or is that you [laughter] decided to make <unk> i put it that way because i mean like you know he's passive and japanese that'd be 'cause the guy who actually did the action the donor is um is doing and talking about but i didn't want to say but that negative connotation [noise] couldn't be positive or what there is holidays mhm uh-huh <unk> yeah i think um you <unk> passive skin have sort of bay uh somewhat negative um connotation but the it's it's sort of a week conversation or um so <unk> oh go ahead this is fun [laughter] oh well that's an interesting that you have the two different types of passive position i'd have to kind of read into the stick paragraphs and or figure out what see i wasn't even i never even looked at the the reference grammar all i'd i'd seen effective grammar so um yeah and they love lamb just wait a reference <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah it's that sure did [laughter] i <unk> i i i strongly ah suggest if i may make your suggestion that when you move your um <unk> over you um i'm sure you're thinking of this already but when he moves that over and you rewrite it for the effect of grammar you should uh include some actual um examples with losses so that we can see what's going on [noise] uh that already it's almost like <unk> for example here [laughter] yeah i'm sure i'm sure you're you you're thinking about doing that already it's just that uh i'm looking at it i see a bunch of paragraphs know examples and uh syntax i like to see examples so i know what's going on [noise] um well i would on that topic um oh george happy so if you <unk> you too um i have the right like samples on it but the example there is i agree [noise] oh i saw that one i ate a grave you're throwing buy me a basic causes or something like that in the effective grim mhm yeah i see that [noise] that was an example george used isn't it i forget which episode where where where where he is red coming from or something like that you were talking about and it was um like you were annoyed that all the example i think there's no tax were incredibly complicated it'd be nice oh oh yeah [laughter] like oh so you <unk> i think we all can may have suggested that or or maybe me six exhausted i ate a great actually as one of the <unk> the example she could use a quick question on that is um looks like the first person was march er nominate but grapes <unk> accusing us uh-huh um no i haven't got the qualifiers disappointing huh [laughter] well <unk> not marked on them down yeah um it it is martin pronouns mhm in fact er two cases that are <unk> <unk> <unk> um she's actually is <unk> on a qualifier okay yeah i see qualifier yeah qualifiers sort of like a determined there there's there's a bunch of other stuff like those mhm <unk> case there's some [noise] and then uh i'm sorry gone yeah oh uh but you can draw the qualifier in numerous everyday case so you off i'm just drop the qualifier and keep goes with them [noise] is it more like an article in english or more like uh like um a particle and japanese ah or neither <unk> it's weird [laughter] yeah i i i don't see much stuff on qualifiers where are the worst <unk> maybe and stuff on <unk> where do you mentioned uh yeah i saw that but i've got books in the media to really yeah you have an open like the bookmark stray or whatever it's called ooh i see that now oh well um i'm looking at it on google docks so i can't really [laughter] [laughter] yeah i usually only for even for for you know language with lots of designed though it's we can hardly cover every single thing that it does i mean we haven't talked all about really the morphology of divert which is kind of hairy and interested <unk> yeah um <unk> to to give them you know but i don't want to change it so yeah yeah unfortunately we can't uh-huh um really go for it too much longer but uh mike what were you going to uh so i was just gonna say so the um the qualifier there aren't really a lot of examples of qualifiers use in a sentence on that one i eat a great example <unk> i didn't notice the qualifier um there is there's a lot so there isn't twang there um yeah yeah when i go to go back over the phrase off one yeah well you'll really see them and when i have passes because those old mess around with you'll have to explicitly case <unk> you can't drop the qualifier you'll get a whole bunch of examples yeah okay on all his age twenty three for the people following along there is a whole section on corner fires and the effect of grammar <unk> qualifiers qualify qualifiers oh and yeah <unk> you mart or racist in case and there's even a little thing where you say uh you can have dummy marta <unk> qualifiers which is kinda a little article [noise] yeah well um i was gonna say does the does the co-op qualifier pre seed or follow the <unk> it's qualifying <unk> immediately oh so like in the uh any determine or <unk> if you follow any uh uh well <unk> there's lot well in english <unk> comes before <unk> so i think i put it in the down complements slot you know obviously certain <unk> like transformation grammar [laughter] mhm [laughter] well though since i was saying you're [laughter] [laughter] uh determine or slot anyway [laughter] um yeah we are running really long i i really wish we could we could go on and on about this but uh uh we are actually already um as possibly as long as some of our old uh two <unk> two or yeah so <unk> yeah um [noise] we will have the lincoln the show knows too tiring um [noise] and uh <unk> thank you very much for for sort of showing us the way through your language and yet uh [noise] <unk> um anything besides this language that you'd like to promote or anything um not like that but um eventually will have more languages mhm [laughter] you sound so <unk> when you say that [laughter] languages that's hilarious [laughter] yeah well well keep on working i hope we're we've actually helped you a little bit and i hope that ah when this episode publishers will get even more sort of feedback from our audience too but uh i i do think that it's a very worthwhile language to look at and i think um our audience members will benefit from some of the unique ideas like the qualifiers uh unfortunately won't have much time to talk about the money we didn't have a whole lot of time talking about him but that's a very interesting idea um [noise] so if nobody has any objections could we move on to feedback shula yeah oh i suppose it shouldn't be silent oh i see your point the listeners to go um we always it don't have time to talk about here go look at the sample tax so see are very well annotated yeah i was actually a new moon janette <unk> the central texas are very nicely laid out and throw and detailed the good yeah i i haven't looked at them yet but i will no there is that a shortly um anyway so let's go on and talk about talk about um oh wow yeah definitely looked <unk> because it's it's he has notes on you have notes on your sample texas in addition to just the inner linear <unk> so that you can explain a few things there was a little bit more explanation of different grammar topics that way um oh <unk> [noise] mhm um so we got an email from side uh everybody knows who the the is i'm sure uh and he says george william and mike howdy uh alex <unk> just listening to your pod cast number sixty two while on a road trip and you mentioned a couple of things we like to respond to now i'm not going to um read this whole email because uh it's very long uh will post it they'll posted without says we'll <unk> we'll stick it on <unk> it's no longer emails just realized that if it's too long we won't actually read it on the show we may mentioned that it's uh uh uh a little sort of uh uh uh but um he mentioned that he has a <unk> on line that uh or they have a <unk> i think alex inside work together yeah yeah basically all their languages [noise] uh it's called gripping that like we were mentioning that we <unk> don't know of any kind of things that have low before but [noise] gripping apparently has low before it's eight okay who person tactile language yeah george the name is gripping it'd be gripping language [laughter] 'cause it you you you em [noise] communicate by hand pressure well holding another person hand that's interesting and odd [laughter] no i didn't know what i'm saying it's it's it's actually recommend people look at it kind of misty so <unk> but uh blend is not called gripping [laughter] it's just called the gripping language i know well <unk> because i'm a single now after all at once since gripping as bill <unk> yesterday i guess it is kind of calling it that it's fun [laughter] so [laughter] um but yeah it is you you it's communicate by <unk> clashing class being your hands together and using ah pressure but uh yeah um basically if there's sort of uh a uh a way to do long before by ah placing your thumb in different places for different ah arguments different um uh and uh for uh pronounce uh <unk> a neat idea it's sort of mirrors the idea we were talking about with a sign language is where are you a sign of space to a particular entity [noise] i don't know i i think <unk> so many of them out and about mhm huh [noise] no i was just thinking if you know if there were a racer i know some engineering and engineered lying but uh just thinking about how you do telephone conversation like you know sign you can do video and speech you do audio but this i guess the <unk> box that you hold on to <unk> maybe [laughter] <unk> [laughter] i <unk> feedback [laughter] well i think i think um <unk> ah tends to develop is the <unk> like to develop things for very specific purposes so i think it may be [noise] like they develop this specifically for sort of semi secret semi private and uh communication between two sort of some sort of in a intimate people so yeah all but you couldn't really have conversations more than just two people i guess because you wouldn't really have no anyway it's it looks like it's designed for just two people um you said you suggest making a new con laying on the show uh mentioning my con line presentations than extinct example um and he he thinks this is a good idea to to uh an interesting idea to make a con lying on the show i don't think we that may have been sort of an offhand comment when we were talking about uh worked shopping somebody's online uh which by the way we have a volunteer for somebody who has like a a sort of uh who's sort of a <unk> but wants us to help them get started on their car on line a little bit so [laughter] um uh we do may do that in the future um [noise] we made we may end up doing that in the future it's uh hard to say um i don't know um i i don't know about creating a con lying on the show like doing a collaborative con lying on the show like between the the three <unk> that would be a cool idea that'd be easy to do yeah yeah i mean uh google things to borrow google docks i think it would be easy for multiple people to edit yeah yeah i think um the the <unk> i think the the point would be to either start the language on the show or get some part of the language done and then talk about on the show and be throwing out ideas <unk> did you have something to say yeah well i was just confused 'cause it's like um create an hour long show [laughter] yeah that's that's why i was saying the sketch i mean the the the stand that <unk> type mentioning is that you can find it on you too and maybe i can find the the show knows where he gave a presentation i forget where it was offhand um and you know at after a quick discussion of calm i mean he just started getting information for people and they put together a quick quick quick little calming and it's sort of you know obviously a sketch um having seen that show that that presentation i would make a rule that you can request a constant you cannot um reliably reproduce [laughter] invariably people one click confidence but they can't make them so no yeah [laughter] um well um we should uh we should um late but other than what i'm saying i think in this mail but the point the dynamics is he's not an art link or he just he does these <unk> yes so he would be interesting to see how it worked for art layers to do something collaborative because our lakers tend to have highly strong opinion [laughter] about everything well i mean you know <unk> try to do with collaborative language can never even agree on the freaking <unk> indian tori maybe yeah well i don't know if it's necessarily that and and language don't have strong opinions it's just that for ends languages you have some objective criteria that jim <unk> <unk> yeah you have design goals and objective criteria to to evaluate it for us it's just what we like aesthetically and some other uh some some basic things like uh we i think all of us like natural ism so we can we can talk about that but um i think i think it might be like trying to have two <unk> two painters paint the single painting and it might be arguing about what comedy even use and all that 'cause there are different and you know what <unk> what you like we could take a look at doing um uh we could you could do it like break it up like you could think of um uh you know i've read or novel recently <unk> ah um william read it to that that that was actually two guys and they took two different character perspectives and they took turns writing chapters <unk> so uh i like that late though yeah living on line <unk> go ahead eric um i mean you could do like you know i uh i'm the person it's a final word on any given section of the grammar yeah might has final word on her willingness <unk> but you still have to have a lot of um you can't just isolate mhm every <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah i think i think you'd start off like um you'd have somebody work on <unk> someone work on some some basic more frustrating tax and stuff and you'd have people talking with each other all the way through so that you don't have things that go wild lay off course in and out of reach anyway that's that's uh i think enough talking about this this idea right now we we can we can think about if we want to do that on the future in the future maybe that that will be the next sort of yearly celebration thing is we do a a a lifetime lying thing um and we also have the workshop idea that um uh we will talk about doing uh <unk> maybe not soon but uh some time will do that maybe once and we'll we'll see if we can get that done we kind of been worked shopping a little bit with her to have anyway [laughter] um <unk> you know <unk> <unk> and the last thing he mentioned is uh well his last big point was um uh u. n. l. w. s. and non linear writing system yes um and he he he was just suggesting that we we might wanna future it he he's he he'd like to know uh what we think would think about it and uh will take a look we don't do a lot of <unk> stuff um but uh we could think about doing this for a future episodes think about how and and talk about it it's ah and gets <unk> yeah maybe maybe we will that might be easier yeah side side will will will be in touch if we want to talk about uh this will will will think about it we got a bunch of other <unk> we wanna feature but this is this is this looks like a unique one that we could take on yet so um and he has a few uh comments on the link to pot gas but uh in any case i think um [noise] i think we can wrap up this episode um we so eric we always start on with our yes <unk> if we have a gas on what um 'cause i just give us any little sort of advice or anything [noise] your final words of wisdom is what i i called them uh <unk> <unk> <unk> um [noise] [noise] [noise] oh you're up something down okay [noise] i was going to do something as that that didn't happen [noise] [noise] that's [laughter] that's okay i guess i didn't have supplements and [noise] [laughter] well [noise] do you have any sort of [noise] yeah i guess [noise] if i was doing paying [noise] i don't put out some of the most interesting they [noise] language [noise] happened pie pure mistake so flag [noise] future to take your news is from <unk> [laughter] doesn't [noise] doesn't matter if the person's good or bad there's no such thing as a good or bad since racial [noise] nice [noise] that's a good thought you know thirty them any good [noise] yeah sometimes mistakes and you give your ideas in any kind of [noise] period of um [noise] so [noise] william [noise] i can't possibly beat that i'll just be quiet [laughter] um [noise] all right and then uh mike [noise] um i would just go he's insane none of the bank alone for that i think an awesome okay so uh i'm gonna say [noise] <unk> [noise] [noise] [noise] oh <unk> okay hold on and we don't have much we lost mike and i'm going to making jokes about that [noise] eric you still they're still children [noise] like it's called [noise] uh what is he calling us or okay what is going on my computer [laughter] [noise] [noise] hello okay [laughter] okay my <unk> ah <unk> <unk> where did you get cut off well williams just said i just need a break and it was very awkward silences [laughter] i was the only one left in silent [laughter] uh well where where where where were just saying we we <unk> we will survive without william so um [noise] it's been a few weeks since we've recorded i yeah and i said like an email today saying you know just to remind everybody we are actually going to record today [laughter] try and get a stable cher how this anything you say right now is is fair game for the ah the gas grill unless you say otherwise [laughter] [laughter] this is the point where i went out my social security number you know my phone maybe a dumb phone but i do like the has a a full physical part of the keyboard i really didn't ever text until i got my i've known a few weeks ago because it has a keyboard even if it's a virtual one it's much much nicer to use then number pad yeah it is it's a little easier i i've done typing a few little things on my <unk> touch but obviously no <unk> i <unk> i still would prefer a physical one i don't know do they make any of the android one's still with physical keyboards no idea i think if i want to get a smart phone i may get a uh an android phone just because i feel like i'm going with the other one [laughter] plus fearful of being interpreted as an apple sand boy no no not really i mean i have an ipod touching if i get a tablet up i'd be getting an hi pat so i'd like i'd like to be in boosts for years a little bit um and the other thing is there are certain things that android <unk> can do that i <unk> don't mike hello mike we cannot hear you my turn on your mike mike [laughter] george how long have you waited to say that [laughter] [noise] uh hi reader of tiring ohio i'm waiting for you it's all right yeah i can hear i can hear it no yeah we don't do we don't do this recording was video because doing multiple video <unk> complicated it is also were destroyed kind of activity you would never hear me again i'm uh i'm i'm pretty settled in i there's still a few things i still need to find a job i still haven't started classes there there's just those things but i'm getting my way learning my way around town and stuff so i'm i'm getting there

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  1. Conlangery Podcast
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Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 65 Tayéin (last edited 2017-09-08 06:59:08 by TranscriBot)