Conlangery #70: Practicum — the Pitfalls of Frameworks

Conlangery #70: Practicum — the Pitfalls of Frameworks

Published: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 04:00:51 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 hey guys i uh thought i would throw a little shot up to something that i uh i saw on <unk> and i thought some people in this audience might be interested in uh there's a a kick starter ah four endangered alphabet and it's uh hoping to uh start printing some books in endangered writing systems in bangladesh and i'm a backer and <unk> i'm a recording this right now they're the project has seven days to go and it's eight hundred dollar shy of it's cool now i don't know a lot of people probably saw me promoting this and other arenas but i thought i'd use what tiny tiny microphone i have to put pointed out so i like that in the show notes and uh and see what you guys think i'm not getting paid for this or anything i'm just thought this was cool and wanting to share it with guys i got <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> well she can't see chain or east coast [noise] welcome to congress fox has fucking truck and languages and people create them i'm george carlin [noise] uh up in new jersey again is muslim team hello and over in sunny california we'd have favorite j. peterson [noise] who is not respond [laughter] [noise] [laughter] is this your goal to screw up my introduction they oughta they sound so smooth [laughter] have you don't like but if you like radio ready man so [laughter] i've got a couple of curve balls in there yeah man i got to keep you on your toes oh [laughter] that's awesome i mean by the by the by the way i periodically going to be doing that throughout the shows are just be right [laughter] i am i gonna have to go through the showing that out [noise] what is that is that new word and you're in a combine of yours yeah it's a it's a it's a new car like the <unk> it's pretty cool i've been working on it for a while it's called so it's a tonal language probably uh you'd think that but no in fact actually it's a it's a um it's a moderate like scenic language um i've been working out in the vocabulary a lot so for example glares help jay <unk> varies from the first one again oh totally different i told yeah yeah very good yeah anyway [laughter] and other totally unrelated stuff uh i uh went to the farmers' market today and i actually did uh by a bunch of local wisconsin's jean i'm cringing yeah have you tried it yet uh i was really curious um [noise] i tried one i mean look at the thing so i can <unk> [noise] i got this one it's [noise] it's a sheet milk jeeze okay uh coal age tone may so told me i guess but you <unk> you know no i did not see the sheep okay um taking it okay alright [laughter] ah but ah i don't know <unk> it's very very sharp and um it's sort of like um uh uh film around it i don't know if that's part of the the the punk <unk> culture or something or what not <unk> no it's probably wax it's probably what i know i i i it it was it was given in in <unk> paper but it has like sort of this powdery stuff on on it so i don't know if that was maybe it serves saint purposes wax 'cause i've had i i've gotten she is the worst <unk> mhm mhm uh may have [noise] so you're of a similar purpose or something i don't know what it is um but not my favorite actually but uh that was the one that i tried today and i also try to pay a <unk> a um charter that i got it was pretty good um but anyway this is not about cats but she i did when i kind of what sort of bye bye yeah by <unk> by this um the told me uh i don't know [laughter] listen just send me a little bit and i will tell everybody next week okay [laughter] uh yeah if i can hope that i don't know [laughter] oh okay so today we have a a topic that uh tape it actually kind of interesting on um mm mm mm mm a very interesting topic i will warn people were going to get a little bit into some uh some uh linguistics series which is not something that we got <unk> really deep into before but there's a really good reason for court dumping into it this time and um hopefully we won't explode too many heads uh so our topic is <unk> i'm calling this a practical topic we pitfalls framework so essentially by frame work were talking about um deans sort of models that linguists use to analyze language is uh we're gonna talk about we're probably gonna talk about uh you know more teams uh more <unk> analysis pun a logical rules all kinds of things but uh we were like oh let me say it first let's not argue about which which theories are more likely or which theories you think are true reflection or not so much but just talk about the frame works themselves because i don't think we <unk> into like theory debates but we do want to tell you a little bit about what using some of these tools uh sort of the precautions you might want to take one using something useful so david you have lots of note so why don't you kind of take it away uh okay so uh first and foremost though before before we get into anything i think it is uh it's very important to mention that uh what we're talking about here i guess what we have in mind if somebody who's sitting down to create a naturalistic conway yeah shall we say yes so you know obviously if you are doing you know a personal <unk> then you do what ever scenes right to eat whatever seems best you uh and the extent to which you know nationalism enters into it is exactly as much as you want it to or as little as you want it too so this really only applies a lot of this is really only going to like somebody's trying to create a naturalistic <unk> looks like something that we could find in the real world um which uh you know a number of us do it's i think it's it's wrong it's wrong these have been wrongly called art legs i think art like <unk> like as much bigger than a naturalistic <unk> but never left um yeah uh we're stuck with it so um first i i like the kind of oh go ahead oh i i would just that also there are also reasons why you might want to use specific frame works in a <unk> maybe you are making or experimental purposes or you may actually develop your own weird alien framework for uh a uh an inch lying or something so yeah it this is very much something that we're talking about with people who who's goal was making a naturalistic language which i think all three of us some degree are interested in yes right okay so uh first to kind of give you a basic ideal <unk> why we're coming up this um and linguistic framework which is uh basically a way that uh in a way that link with analyze natural language is is a first and foremost a tool and so they overall message that i want to <unk> is that tool to make some things easier they also make other things more difficult and um and if you stick to that just you know a single tool it will make certain things that seem almost impossible [noise] um at a nice analogy i think is uh um uh silverware so for example you know we have forks and knives and spoons uh there's a reason that you eat soup with a spoon and not a fork ah now imagine if that you only had a fork and so then basically you're trying to go go after spoons with fork you know just a prostitute not like a a stew um and you know it'd be like gosh i wish there was something you know easier to do this you know but there was nothing that was the only utensils in the world uh <unk> we would probably stop eating soup i that are just you know pick up the bowling drinking uh which to me i don't know it just seems i i know it's done i know it's done but [laughter] i can't imagine i just can't imagine it anyway um [noise] um and you can if we if we actually go to in to the other side if you think about um japan you know like the main utensils there it's been chopsticks mhm uh if you look at a lot of japanese cuisine it's often present it in such a way that it would be easy to eat with chopsticks so it's like they have they still have steak you know like we do but when you order at a restaurant and it's presented to you it's cut up into little strips so that you know you can pick it up and bite sized shots and eat it with chopsticks and that's kind of like a direct affect of using chopsticks as the main um you know <unk> there mhm anyway so well there's an argument made about <unk> not an episode about uh cooking or eating utensils so i'll leave that alone [laughter] although i anyway i have to i i'm pretty sure that that cows don't start they don't come in strips [laughter] no but uh there's there's there's sort of [noise] argument for uh about uh about cultural uh beliefs about food but let's let's uh leave that alone and <unk> back into um linguistics though so er what what can we talk about <unk> to to get people back and to what uh what kind of linguistics framework [noise] ah <unk> <unk> <unk> kind of um problems you can have with these analytical framework okay so to start off with one that i think um most everybody will be familiar with there's a there's a very standard uh type of notation that's use to describe a phone a logical and morphological <unk> it's uh the age to be in the environment if see in the type of rule um and what this kind of a little terminology does is it allows you to describe a certain common uh historical and sing products out that we see all over the place um so one from uh italian um i'm still not sure if this is taken over completely or if it's in free variation but if you have a word that under lightly um k. a. s. <unk> shall we say gossip the uh s. will become an see because they're cursing between two valve and so you will come out s. gaza right mhm [noise] i think you can still say <unk> anybody now and italian huh i don't <unk> <unk> <unk> have that ah <unk> more sing process but i i don't know about time spanish has a uh you know <unk> <unk> is a different one no no no no he's saying that it's <unk> pretty <unk> oh yeah sure you can get the voice list one and italian too like it wasn't uh hard and fast roll anyway for our purposes let's pretend that it's hard and fast so underlying lee we say that it's <unk> and then on the surface it comes out if guys that and basically the way that we represent this role is you have this little notation has a c. stands for confident then you have a greater than signed like a little arrow uh and then you will use our <unk> says so that confident goes to plus voice uh in the environment of that's a little flash and then we have the underscore eating that means in between <unk> further worth a confidence will become voice uh in between two gals that actually um it's it's kind of interesting the history of this year uh these rules came up you know a time where people were using typewriters and so uh something that was actually given credence for a long while in linguistics all the way through the seventies with that if you were kind of framework or if you are rules you <unk> uh a smaller number of key strokes it was more preferable mm <unk> the idea of being that these <unk> ultimately like you know if you have to framework and they predict the same amount of stuff the one that has less written in it the one that i have less formal machinery will be the one that's closer to psychological reality um but really it was just to save money 'cause you know everybody typing so this is why you'll see rules like you know a costs that goes to plus voice in between two <unk> say well i just mean any confident it's like well ah the ideas that <unk> implicitly um only talks about voice list once you're a little bit of <unk> yes yes there you go they figure out like [laughter] you could say that yeah some voice confidence is voicing in between two <unk> because that's what it does anyway it doesn't really have any other way of showing up um [noise] anyway so that's the that's the machinery and that's been used to describe the rule right and it's still serves i it's it's still widely used in linguistics there there's really nothing wrong with it it's good uh kind of explanatory rural um there is a problem with it which is if you start with just this rule um there's nothing in the rule that tells you for example why that should be motivated so um with the with the italian example <unk> going to cause that ah phonetically there's a reason that this change happens and there's a reason to this change happen all you know all over the world and all kinds of languages [noise] uh which is a valve are typically voice um they aren't you know in most environments and most languages <unk> voice and so if you have a word like gotcha what your vocal folds or doing is they're starting off on voice to do the k. voice thing to do the a deep voice thing to do the s. and voicing again to do the eight um it's simpler if you just have your vocal folds keep on <unk> vibrating right through that f. because then you know you're <unk> you're features they're they're just doing one thing and so as a result it's kind of easier to pronounce jail <unk> there's just a vocal for vibration the whole way through i mean it's not impossible to do it obviously we have where it's like a sign language is all over the place it's just something that can crop up it's something that can happen yeah it's phonetically motivated um but the way that the rule is written there's no none of that phonetic information isn't there uh <unk> that detailed isn't there <unk> you can actually use the rule in very chowder intuitive ways [laughter] um yeah and i and i gave a couple of <unk> like one is that uh [laughter] uh <unk> what's the <unk> oh yeah uh she goes to <unk> in between e. and ooh i based based on the way the rule is written you can do that and so we have a word like people which actually ah underlying leads people which actually surfaces s. <unk> whereas <unk> keep it so [laughter] i mean you just look at this and you know that's just stupid it's completely wrong it's completely on motivated um but there's nothing about this uh this kind of many framework that says there's something wrong with this rule right there's nothing that now we should we should say that this particular one i think people can sort of the some of the problems by knowing a little bit about linguistics and knowing a little bit about um what motivates sound changes but it is it's sort of a good example of how um how <unk> your notation and stuff not necessarily you should avoid having notation ill um devices determine how you're making a combine ah right and this is probably something i'm going to repeat but look at other times but uh i'm going to say that the first place [noise] one thing that i sort of believe is important when you're doing these things is may stuff then analyze it leaves her analytical tools these are not um these are not sort of uh tools for making <unk> so uh this particular one you know you could think about okay i want a simulation here i want uh missiles to <unk> to ah you i want a <unk> ah before the corresponding stopped by <unk> these things and then you can write out your rules after you've figured out some things about your language um or you can uh you know similar ideas you know make up a few words and where are you for your on your chronology that kind of thing so i usually do yours um i try to sort of i work back and forth a little bit so when i do them i mean i <unk> i don't necessarily just go out and you know do all the forms i think we might talk on forms later on [noise] um no but i kind of do work from framework i don't know if that's because i'm you know i know you know i'm not going to do <unk> <unk> it goes to florida and between e. and who [noise] um i i think it helps how somewhat of a background of how sounds related so maybe you can say okay well they they it's a million similar in place for the generation or you know uh from <unk> or any kind of there was some sort of string time together rather than having completely counter intuitive unnatural changes unless you're into a natural unpredictable changes like that then by all means go crazy yeah but then like keep in <unk> oh it was gonna say that's actually kind of the point and that's really why i wanted to start with this one because i think um a lot of people uh at least uh if people have gotten into coddling and a little bit um [noise] the phonology and it it's much easier to understand and uh that other stuff and so they really get it right and so it's it's obvious to to see like you know how some of these things are going to work uh we have usually have enough linguistic knowledge to bring to bear on these it's uh it's it's other places where it becomes more problematic uh but also there there are other um [noise] you you can like the idea is that yes you know you don't want to start with this tool and then build your language from it and this is just a small example but there are other i think <unk> finer detail examples where you could show this for example ah voice stopped going to <unk> after a naval this seems pretty counter intuitive but i bet there is it called layer might have come up with it mhm [noise] uh you know what i mean uh it's it's something that i think i i'm not sure if it's ever happened in any of the world's languages [noise] um you know except in in extenuating circumstances like for example if a if a if a voice stop goes to a um they forget uh before uh high though and then you can see you know <unk> going to tennessee right mhm um uh-huh but it's it's usually not the nasal that's going to trigger that in fact it seems completely cat or intuitive for the <unk> trigger that um but that's something i think if um you know if if you weren't <unk> if you didn't have that kind of phonetic background uh that's one of those [noise] semi plausible sound changes that one might have come up with if you were just starting with this little bitty framework mhm yeah um i think uh one but i um that may be a a sort of an example <unk> you wouldn't necessarily think of uh immediately being that was one thing i did when i was uh writing up the sound changes from uh your your mouth is um one thing i had was basically at some point in the development ah retro flux <unk> developed mhm <unk> because i wanted a <unk> particular word shape struck her i had the idea that i <unk> would become just a regular uh ethical uh <unk> <unk> <unk> would come to <unk> after a vow at the end of a tool and i like spring actually pointed out to me like that doesn't seem motivated in any way and he actually suggested it might be more realistic you probably restricted that only after high in foul did that did that change that happened and that's what i ended up going west i'm still you know back and forth wondering about it but yeah you might you might be able to kill it in other ways um hold them mentally that was what you wanted um and you just wanted to join naturally my else you do that uh [laughter] yeah probably the easiest way would be to go back and then motivate the changed uh two retro flex <unk> uh from something that followed the fuck it it <unk> you know what i mean yeah i couldn't do that and then and then you'd get april er word finally at all environments um yeah uh usually it's the ours but uh twist retro flex its usually it's the our that comes for that does it or is it after <unk> actually now you could yeah i i but then you have the are there so you need the already disappear and usually they are disappears because after about all night after confident that's now <unk> um i don't know how close are little languages are but i know like if maybe they were like kinda like with taiwanese variety of <unk> chinese uh metroplex confidence <unk> they lose their metroplex so like it's not a sign yeah well the <unk> the <unk> yeah well yeah you could just lose reflections at all entirely but i want actual i want to actually to have records searches and they started language the original language wouldn't have uh um so that's that's the point i like your idea uh david uh as i'm as i may <unk> think that even again and think about uh that way of doing it but anyway let's move on a little bit on the topic [noise] not sure <unk> well on my language i was just throwing out an example of something that's not necessarily as obviously wrong but once you once you think about it it's kinda weird um so um you william are sort of david you actually have uh an example of you you you <unk> you have in your notes also uh under specify segments raw if uh <unk> people who don't know the terminology uh an under specify that segment is something that is underlying li like a sound that underlying lee is not all there there's some teacher of it that you don't uh that it's hypothesize the speakers don't know uh underlying lee and it only only appears on the surface after it's gone through some sort of rule and you actually use your own language has a he's study or how this can go wrong yeah <unk> mhm go ahead sorry no <unk> no i'm just gonna say <unk> segment you know you don't know until you're taken out of box one's going to be [laughter] yeah exactly what it is you [laughter] okay so um yeah i think that uh i think if if god lakers listen to the story they they'll probably something very familiar ah especially those that have come uh come through linguistics uh basically exactly what i did with the language of mine uh called <unk> which um if you're one of the old guard coddling or so you'll probably know it [laughter] no i don't [noise] um but um so what happened was when i was an undergraduate at berkeley we did in our um i think it was i think it was in our phonology class uh this is the first time that i ever encountered turkish uh-huh and ah <unk> yeah yeah they gave us a whole big <unk> trying to describe the valley harmony turkish ah and ah well i guess for those that don't know turkish churches about hari language so um uh turkish turkish or who's give me something uh the um the <unk> of the word for house is if day whereas the opposite of for the word for um child is uh <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> ah so nor the d. t. thing what happens is that after front fouls the vow and the olive comes out of eh after <unk> comes out of our um and that's ah yeah that's the way it is throughout the entire language um one of the theories that was developed to explain ah val harming juicy and all the turkey languages and a lot of other languages in the world um is that uh speakers you know like george will say um don't they they don't know for certain what say particular valid you <unk> some sort of an ethics um they know some things about fell but they don't know all things about about until it's actually attached to a word and the <unk> of the word than fill in the rest of the blacks alright um this was a this was called uh <unk> basically these little segments that if you're only an access or called under specify segments ah they can be confidence or health but we're in a deal with vowels here um and the reason that they were so attractive is that um ah one of the main goals of linguistics is to describe how uh how new speakers of a language children uh interpret the data that they're given for their own language uh they don't have access to the history of their language uh the theory is all they have to work with is what they hear or if you if you followed shops in theory also some stuff in their head [noise] um and so as a result um even if you know what the history of you know <unk> and turkish it doesn't mean anything to a child they have to be able to explain it just based on what uh the material is what they have to work with um and so as a result the under specify bell theory or second that theory was really attractive because it's like well here your modeling what it is that children know they know that dispel for example is going to be high but they don't know if it's going to be rounded or friend her back until it gets attached to it and they can fill in the second all right so it works out very neatly nicely for turkish it starts to run into some problems if you get into something like uh hungarian and finish that have neutral valve and it gets even crazier you start to look at mongolia um but uh it works very very neatly for turkish circus is just wonderful for linguistics and this way [noise] um so anyway as an undergraduate i learned about this theory and <unk> and it was like basically the way that under specify bells represented like the low <unk> uh uh capital a and they say this capital <unk> plus um it's r. e. s. it's minus high and minus route and then his final feature friend her back is an alpha it gets this alpha from the previous val <unk> <unk> <unk> it gets plus uh gifts plus <unk> and so it becomes lightest round uh minus high plus front <unk> that's how you fill it up so i thought this was really cool and so i went back and this is uh you know what i did i i was really fascinated by nature i guess i want her to build a language that kind of um felt like turkish side is creating she there and i was created it spell harmony system and so what i thought that was alright if under specified valve can work this way that is they'll have at least one teacher that's fixed and other features that um come from a previous style you can actually do a lot more with it <unk> <unk> why not and so i came up with a whole bunch of under specified balance i think i wrote the number here isn't it was like fourteen or someone <unk> fourteen fourteen under specified valve and so for example there's one that i write um with a capital eat and it specify as uh as minus hide basically it'd be like what turkish is if it had been it oh and <unk> into it slow val army in other words the rabbit balance but it doesn't so that works fine enough but then there's some really really strange ones like this capital <unk> be it'd be best if you could see this uh it'll be a little bit harder to describe but essentially ah what it does is um it's okay i i have to kind of think through this because it's really tough um i will i will linked to um your um vowel harmony paint on july are so people can look at it so okay this is okay i got it that's uh this is what it does okay for the vowel um <unk> it's under specified and it takes the high end back teacher for whatever whatever the previous ballots and then it's rounding feature comes from the back seat shirt so if it's minus back it's minus round plus back plus route and so <unk> it's really weird and so in this language <unk> where do you have a lot of rounding harmony you have this val which comes out to eat eat after he and he [laughter] [laughter] all right so um yeah that makes no sense it makes absolutely no sense right so it's you have this really you you so <unk> you can do the entire set for the eighth fell system you have one where it's like okay yeah it makes sense that he would come back to eat but no it doesn't make any sense that that even after and then that they even <unk> would come after ooh right so it's like yeah completely attitude if but it makes perfectly <unk> it makes perfect sense with in the framework of under specified golf um that if if you ignore uh kinda phonetic info on a logical motivation for ah harmony you can actually have several different types of harmony working in the same language they hide harmony uh round in harmony uh back harmony um and even the opposite of that because alpha notation in linguistics allows you to do a negative so you have negative alpha something so you could have about [laughter] you could actually have a segment where if something is round then develop that you get it's on route and vice versa just because this is something that you can describe it in the theory of under specify golf um and so kind of the thing to take away from this is that i think it was what a lot of us do when we're coming up through linguistics ah in college we find an idea in a in a particular language that's really neat right and it usually starts out with you know linguistics or a phenomenon that they find interesting and so they try to find a way to explain it a way to make it normal and so then they come out with this explanation <unk> and starts with that explanation and says oh but if you could do that you could also do [laughter] this this this and then so yeah if you ever <unk> have you ever want to know like that's my theory work just give it to a <unk> and see what they do with it [laughter] and so yeah that to me that that really torpedoed really turkey to under specify golf for me but um so you know this is just to kind of a it's a sticky example but i think if you go when you look at uh <unk> uh really quickly you can just see how how am i thinking shapes the language and how it's still never less just completely doesn't make sense even though i tried to invent historical explanation for it did just uh yeah yeah just to build a bomb one [laughter] ah one thing that i would say in this case is um i think this is one of those cases and obviously this is something you are in a long time ago you <unk> are beyond that i'm probably done i don't think i've done anything worse than than when i've done [noise] weird thing uh but uh [noise] like this is one of those places where my idea uh make it then then analyze it might have work better so you could write you could i have sort of yeah just like taking what your aspects are and sort of figure it out um okay this aspect um up here this way after this <unk> this bell and then later come back and see oh maybe this one could be under specified or something like that rather than starting with under stress or what fourteen under stress part vowels which yeah i think that the first place if you're doing fourteen <unk> you're doing something wrong [laughter] kind of hand [laughter] yeah and and then coming up with really it possibly um implausible a combination like that that don't make any sense for someone trying to learn the language and the generalized thing yeah yeah [laughter] yeah i think if ah if i <unk> i think i'll just looking at the ordering because if you had the the round the vowel harmony you know i don't know if the specifications of four or five <unk> other <unk> processor afterwards so it's kind of in between you got to figure out not only how <unk> from point a to point b. but also what which comes first the chicken or yank to give me this wonderful man beyond right yeah that that could that could that could uh yeah some ah ordered process might work but then order process and that's another framework that yes i do some weird stuff uh <unk> but right away if you want to see 'em if you want to see that all hardly uh done right i did um uh the army for my language quieter uh his background right now and i <unk> truly are all you can you can change it easily um that's that's pretty good it does um h. e. r. and i think uh h. e. r. and round and harmony um it is it pretty well [noise] at this stage it's it's really um i've discovered it's really difficult to come up with a unique harmony system that is one that isn't youth somewhere in the world <unk> [laughter] yeah um <unk> my recommendation by the way if you want to do something that uh or at least hope to come up with a language that it's unique it's with bell harmony it's changed your <unk> inventory uh dive into those central bells [laughter] but it's like [laughter] i i've just seen so much stuff it's like every time i tried to sit down and come over the valerie system like uh uh just like that and stuff like that like there's too much every they've done every day uh it's pretty good well <unk> that's not necessarily a bad thing because now like uh i think one thing that i would uh i was going to come to later in uh natural language precedents help you find things that naturally happened so mhm you may if you aren't really concerned about being unique in a unique snowflake you may just kind of co-op some uh some natural language is val harmony systems so um you know if if that's your <unk> <unk> it depends on what you're concerned with <unk> <unk> whether you're concerned with your <unk> evening unique or not or you're more concerned about <unk> allergies really beautiful i recommend it mhm if you if you've ever tried to army language try it it's better conditions yeah [laughter] ah oh by the way i just wanted to mention do you think about where you were going next stay with that and then we'll go there right after i said but i just thought of another example of a um a really unnatural found change that i did uh based on the you know <unk> um just because i thought that you could uh this is actually for the first <unk> of <unk> waiter and where it got its name uh so like i i created it uh for the first time you know way back in like two thousand one two thousand two um and it was terrible i i ended up revamping at several years later into the state that it's in now and it's all right um but uh initially uh this is a language that did have <unk> they had um uh three <unk> you know ah <unk> <unk> and then <unk> <unk> um and i think surrounding but um what happened was uh stops um it had had you know just the three of voice listening three voice that the usual uh stop became a lay be alive before french valve [laughter] yeah so so this is why it was a waiter and not gator uh it was a <unk> underline lance just gee but since it comes to before you know in a val it takes a w. uh [noise] <unk> yeah i i at the time i thought you know oh yeah because i i don't even know i don't know what my <unk> my justification wise um i think it was just i thought well it you know i if i can describe it you could do it [laughter] [laughter] but no you can't [laughter] yeah i i've been racking my brain recently i want one of the language is uh rio you for some reason i've <unk> i'm stuck on this uh change that i heard actually in ah one at least one chinese speaker where aspirin pete becomes the oh yeah <unk> curricular <unk> <unk> you know and i've been sort of racking my brain okay what environment does it lightly but it seems like it it's just playing with it in my mouth much smell seems like it would make more sense in front of hi bells and like yeah but i'm not entirely sure so i've been sort of running that through my brain scene where where that is uh a possible thing and where i can uh uh make it happen oh that's actually quite common is it uh yeah type sound changed um it's it's much more calm and you know with t <unk> [laughter] but yeah but it can i may have to they could have um voice list especially operated yeah maybe i <unk> i i'll do it with yeah maybe i'll do it with both p._n._t. low that um it's sort of balance a little bit i think i don't know i think it wouldn't make sense for tap into <unk> let's let's see i haven't been <unk> unless you have something different going i'm a k. i. p. n. k. like uh the labels and people are usually pattern together now if you did the <unk> will make more sense do like a p. f. because it's at least you know still blame you'll not going to the other <unk> you could do it both ways but no i <unk> i i remember this specifically um gosh what first place obviously think of is greek um [laughter] yeah [laughter] yeah i i should ask william a little bit about [laughter] but anyway that's um that's just uh thing that i've been kicking around in my brain and uh that's an example of the thinking oh that you shouldn't be talking about uh sort of going back and forth okay where where does this occur if i do p. [noise] shoot i necessarily do t. n. k. as well do at the same chain that kind of stuff that that's the kind of thinking that you should be doing not necessarily just sitting here okay i'm gonna write a bunch of rules using this format and uh i don't really care about individuals what they what they look like how how likely they are uh-huh mhm if you're doing natural [noise] again right but uh mike where are you going to say something yeah before launder away from <unk> uh segments um you mentioned that you can also do it for confidence you i knew if you had like still georgia same for example uh p. an unjust or you're under still find some aspects of confidence mm how would you do the <unk> the alpha no free plus or minus the future if you were doing it based on novels <unk> something on some of the same features uh you don't do you do it differently uh usually it's not with um [noise] uh usually it's not without uh like you say it but but no actually i do have uh i do have an example i do have an example um because there are certain teachers that belt in constant share ah one of them in front of the <unk> kind of yes um and so for example you could have yeah fairly plausible uh rural ah harmony rule that where except here it's just kind of like it's just an assimilation that's not really confident army but like um you know you can have a distinction between ah ah and ah ah the little and dealer er that was conditioned by the bell but that really is more of just uh uh a common sound change i think it does happen in our men in fact um with with uh uh but usually the place where you see confident harmony civilized costs on her confident harmony where um you know an asshole make a <unk> ah into an ass or vice versa so that they're all the same in a word yeah um they only the only <unk> and i and <unk> <unk> i've seen is some people um analyze the uh the uh the english <unk> under specified but that's conditioned by <unk> and i'm not sure how much i find that um that's a pretty now see that if it was <unk> gardening [noise] yeah it's it's it's a little it's a little hard to tell to ah argue let's but again we didn't want to argue over different <unk> a little hard to uh <unk> [noise] see uh what the um the uh the merits of that visa be being underlying lazy or something but let's not get into that that would uh go get a smile on a theory rabbit hold that we really don't want to deal with but instead uh the next topic you listed here david <unk> morphine and i'm really interested in this in your argument here because i started out when the first time you mention <unk> ah first morphine being um uh problematic evil i was a little skeptical but then when i see your arguments i do see some of the problems with them yeah yeah so um [noise] [noise] where where to start with us it's just it's become an obsession with me [laughter] but so here's the deal first is super super super duper important to realize that um morphine is simply in analytical tool um it does not necessarily represent anything real about language it does if you basically agree with the analysis um but it's not actually there so um there are other ways to describe things um i i often the first reaction i get what i say oh you shouldn't be using more things when you <unk> if you know oh what do you mean just like an analytical language like no no no more things aren't the same <unk> uh more concern entirely different thing um and so the issue is not ah necessarily with the [noise] i want to see the issue isn't necessarily with the way things are broken down let me go ahead go ahead and i'm sure most of our um our um listeners no this already but i'll just to find more <unk> hey morphine in linguistic analysis is basically the smallest part of a word that meaning so the the the sort of traditional thing about you do with um um morphine make analysis is say you are going to break down the word uh uh uh a predisposition so you would break it down and uh sort of dispose is one morphine you have <unk> one morphine meaning ah before or or some the pre existing or something like that then uh shaun is a nominal <unk> morphine and bass is the poor morphine that's <unk> that that sort of what we're talking about what morphine is ah sort of what you did she used to sort of break down words and right back to david on y y that <unk> okay so the issue with morphine is that there is a there is a kind of fiction that you must except in order for all morphine make analyses to work and that is that um meaning is specifically tai <unk> any specific me will be specifically tied to a string to afford a logical strength that has to work or otherwise markings make no sense um any simply can't have one more thing that can alice it so in that in a standard analysis of something like cats do f means plural and cat means cat you combine cat an ass to get cats you can find the meaning of cat with the meaning plural to get the meaning of more than one cat um immediately uh something analysis like this runs into problems when you look at a word like geese um obviously <unk> uh <unk> if you want to account of meanings there has to there has to be to meetings and they're one of the meaning of goose just as a bean and then the meeting them more than one um and then it becomes a question well how do you write this down um and that's when things started to go awry uh obviously there's a difference between good <unk> ah there's about change and that was often represented by what's known as a zero morphine which is uh presented as a kind of uh an invisible suffix that has the meaning that you watch that show that demonstrate that uh you know you've added something to something else um and then the problem is you try to affect some sort of a change in the previous now um [noise] there are ways to handle issues like that so there's a way to handle for example that fact that you know fish is one <unk> a fish you could just say that there's any suffix on the the plural version of fish and it has that poor romanian in there with decent goose you can say there's uh invisible suffix that has the plural meaning and it's a magical uh invisible suffix that also changes the previous sal um and yeah and only does so in a very specific way so it doesn't change news to me that's a that's a different subjects goes on there uh you can handle the particulars like that what you cannot handle is um is things like the word news so new news the word <unk> ah means you know like issues the day or whatever it half as it's broken down into morphine ethically ah the morphine new and the plural morphine s. it's just the way it works um but that's not what the meaning it and in fact new isn't even a now uh okay yeah if uh the <unk> so uh i i so then right then you're presented with a problem which is that how did you add this plural suffix to an <unk> tips and get singular now kind of math now that has the meaning that's not related to plural or new in any um any standard way now obviously you can <unk> we can figure out between ourselves how this word came to be you know something that's new right if some you don't know and news is basically something you don't know it's a lot of things that are right um yeah yeah you can you can figure out historically how these things came about er but the issue with morphine make analysis is that uh meaning is supposed to be <unk> um and <unk> just like uh segments or <unk> yeah so i need more famous than more freedoms are uh sing chronic specifically so yeah historical explanation just get thrown out anyway so right and so i usually what would happen here is that with news you'd just say it safe single morning and then you'd be done with it uh yeah for them which is unfortunate uh for <unk> um uh not necessarily for linguistic analysis uh there are have where it becomes difficult so for example have the the word uh emergency ah deaths more easily broken down so that you can see you we actually have the worst emerged any emergencies um and then we have emergency uh suddenly it's steals <unk> wrong to say that that word is modern more scenic which is what you're forced to do because you can't combine emerged in and eat and get our meaning of emergency simply can't be done um the way that you can do it with um you know uh uh disposing disposition right right uh only to the emergency and um [noise] emerge birds i mean like urgent and urgency if they're any sort of derby snow paradigm in there [laughter] how long have you been <unk> i should've i should've dispose you can even breakdown but anyway that's moving on well that's the thing you can break down dispose but uh only historically right that is true it was something that you have to treat as <unk> just like you can break emerged out <unk> emerged uh but that's historical for that one is so emergency you know um <unk> on controversial a in a more theme like analysis <unk> urgency is controversial <unk> or even more controversial has three more things that um and they're simply no way to reconcile it um so now like like like george says we're not going to be spending time arguing if this is something that's good for linguistics or not uh it has its uses it has its detractors than it has its proponents so we'll let them have it out [noise] um for <unk> the problem is um a lot of times what i see when i look at just a new languages new caught like uh when i come to the morphology section when i come to elect scott it's simply a laundry list of morphine and i mean morphine single linguistic sets every single unit is discreet whether it's elect seem or uh ethics and it all has a very <unk> they all have very specific <unk> and so basically it looks like um ah it it it just it looks like english if there were no metaphorical meaning for example in something like emergency or a news um and ultimately what it produces something rather unsatisfied i it's basically like a uh a bunch of all the languages are pretty much the same that use this as a base and furthermore if you take this if you take this really seriously it becomes very difficult to produce words uh like emergency um and this is just even working with and the <unk> ah right um if you if you take it out to intellectual morphology uh there there are other things that became very difficult to do um so i i have uh just a a quick example um i actually should have done this with uh men i think about it [laughter] you know there is there <unk> okay let's do it okay so it hawaiian uh the word for a man <unk> uh and then the the plural is actually got that guy uh it's uh it's got a has a has to watch my call it it it's which is the tenth another ten <unk> what do you call it which is a stress threats threaten the emphasis oh god [laughter] the stress which is not dress from from penn ultimate the personal [noise] um [noise] there's also another plural for men which is <unk> um which has a long valley in it ah and you know it's obviously it's one of the things is obviously related historically in some way but it's not obvious at the stage um how it is 'cause <unk> the the single or just got i got and then there's this <unk> um [noise] but uh more importantly it's really difficult to produce um <unk> ah terrorists like this there aren't completely off the wall um it's much easier to just say there's a plural suffix that applies to every day um but by and large that type of regular morphology is something you only see with a new vocabulary or or you know vocabulary that isn't old the older vocabulary effort that regularity which is really hard to produce if you are kind of uh thinking of your language as a sink chronic um system that you were describing with serious morphine mhm that makes sense <unk> yeah all right uh i got tons of examples but anyway [laughter] um do you have a giant i'm comments at this point [noise] uh i i i will say i feel a little bit victim too and i really specially in earlier versions [noise] but um [noise] if you look at <unk> now one thing you notice is the third no barrier forums or now parents too <unk> they all happened section they that they all must have certain inflections including the now must be marked for absolute <unk> which is a little weird um or did sexually number did but uh it's functions with absolutely we're not <unk> but anyway yeah i had this idea of i had i had the mountain group and and he hey ah k. suffix and then uh it was actually not entirely more <unk> more people because i have um plural <unk> all <unk> number <unk> also kerry gender information so that kind of you know so that is an example of how you sort of will when you're thinking in terms of more <unk> it will pious you towards oh gluten the two languages a little bit um i really like your example your other example <unk> david uh um spanish future attacks um oh yeah yeah i can i go for that or you want to go over that or or no you go ahead [noise] so in spanish there is a dedicated teacher tense that these warm by adding something to the <unk> in the form of er right so uh you have it depends on uh uh person the number agreement so you have <unk> two <unk> and <unk> and this is really weird when you look at it in terms of morphine because uh you're trying to analyze it and you say okay um exactly how it has the future <unk> have the um the the other <unk> infant meaning when clearly these are these are finite forms these are not right <unk> worms or a bird i think that's the problem a lot of my students are in into as well and they were learning missed they were like wait a minute why to the future have the infamous for for example where <unk> they'd be like wait a minute it's not masculine <unk> [laughter] yeah yeah so um well actually um yeah and both of those actually when you look at them historically makes sense so in a historical yeah but yeah it in the uh in the in the the spanish uh what happened was you had a construction with the <unk> plus <unk> <unk> oh did it mean future initially or was it different meaning no it was it was obligation um okay uh there there is there is to compete in theory that it wasn't obligation that it was a guy that future uh but essentially you can think of it as like you know i have to do this in fact we have it in a present tense in english i have to do <unk> means obligation but yeah i came to me the future tents and spanish so basically the idea that that that is is somehow the the uh the <unk> for got just stuck on with the bourbon that became the future joe <unk> hey become <unk> so um that you know that sort of an example of something you would never come up with just thinking of more teams because you wouldn't think um adding something to another form of the <unk> in order to make a new form of her and it's really sort of a beautiful <unk> illustration of oh where this may or may not be a real thing that may or may not be a good way to analyze language is but it definitely has its limitations when you're trying to making language right um so i got a question about ah cat food [noise] the attacks but um i got uh i i have another uh another example i was i was thinking of this one but um i i couldn't find it until it out but now i've got it in front of me that that's another uh really nice example so um and then i'll i'll summarize afterwards but uh a really nice when to look at is the um is the uh <unk> what you call it the and the nominal intellectual system of <unk> uh otherwise it's studying uh does uh two things that are very interesting uh one there are basically to stand in estonia and uh now um i'm just working with an easy one here that they have like we keep idiots when disney that involve the over long about an hour long confident but um [noise] there's the novelty of singular stand any agenda did stem ah and then also the <unk> i'm sorry there's a dominant of uh singular stem the <unk> and then the uh i i want to say is it the gender to world stand or the partnership singular that one's in general <unk> i'm sorry so there's the novelty seeking understand the gender singular stem and the gender <unk> each of them are used to form different things obviously the <unk> um because that's just the way it works ah so you know uh the gender w add an uh <unk> the rest of the cases are built off of one of the stems so the part of the <unk> <unk> <unk> is the part of um the gender to plural is built a part of the singular that was it was built up a part of singular and so you're either self day um for some reason it's plural and uh if you wonder what the <unk> it's totally different and the part of pointless <unk> totally different um then you use this gender to plural stem to form all of the plural cases the ill it'd been <unk> i just have been obligated all of them are formed off of the <unk> and then for the singular cases all of them are formed <unk> degenerate singular step um so that's one interesting thing now here's the other interesting thing if you add agitated into the mix uh this is what happened uh first uh for the non native through the um trans selective cases [laughter] okay [laughter] this is the first ten cases um then now and it's changed to the end of the <unk> change to reflect the case and the adjective agrees with it for the bottom for cases the terminator to the <unk> in a committed it um you just use the janitors so um so determined to form of a noun within <unk> is degenerative singular singular <unk> floral and then the additives takes a special case for but only for those for cases so only for those for cases um will you see um important inflection for the now on the <unk> and of course the <unk> if it isn't there then it goes on that now um completely completely while [laughter] [laughter] yeah so oh anyway oh yeah yeah so that sort of take away from this is that uh yeah obviously so what's happening here is that uh language just like to make use of uh of different parks so not necessarily just your <unk> singular if you're talking about it now it it takes advantage of some of the other built up parts of a word and uses them to build other parts of usually there's a historical explanation for this which is why you know it's important for congress pay attention to death so like uh with i think for all of these cases for example estonia and ah you know it's not an accident that it's the <unk> that is the stem because they'd originally probably came from like you know um to the inside of now [noise] but now it's all yeah inflated um [noise] so uh that was the one take away the other take ways that um if you start to look at things a parody medically uh like even in a noun paradigm [noise] different things can happen if different words are involved uh and so it's like you know with uh a purely uh starting just with morphine like how could you possibly guessed that in four of the fourteen cases at a sony and adding an <unk> into the mix would crush <unk> change the inflection of the now um <unk> it it's something that that you know it's it can't be captured with more <unk> um and so if you start with um it seems to me that this <unk> based on my experience you are less likely to come up with um strategy is like these which other languages youth ah in abundance [laughter] yeah it seems kind of like <unk> um using the paradigm is like <unk> you know if you can't even picture in looking at <unk> whole thing you see a little different parts really with one another but if you're just gone bit by bit it looks like almost you're looking at just one maybe square inch and trying to <unk> and it's very much just continuous hunt them make the relations very clear right yeah actually it's a really good analogy so yes uh well now david you you are i guess we kinda got into power and i'm a little bit you suggest sort of paradigm <unk> an alternate tool um for making these things and the whole point of the <unk> is just make a chart and you make yeah and you'd doesn't matter if you use inflections or <unk> or um or even build the strings so of things going on you just make a chart the only thing about current arms it's still a framework and you could still sort of and uh thinking that oh i've got to have a unique form preached law which you don't have to do <unk> <unk> i don't do it in fact yeah yeah yeah you could even even um you selectively make irregular now but ah have certain mergers the other <unk> and that's another thing you could pick up uh historically as well um but it does look like a little bit easier to uh uh a little bit of a better <unk> use um right um now oh uh the other question [noise] um i know we're done a little on the <unk> um [noise] with paradigm <unk> certain languages like latin had different conjugation patterns of declined from patterns based on what type of turn on the phone and spanish something where you see this with like maybe <unk> or latin if it's first <unk> um on those off from just armed turn it on the uh financial driven i'm studying language that doesn't really have that does not have been it has to confirm patterns or gum so um are you calling from uh well uh that's that's kind of the thing with paradigm um really i think the uh the key uh top level factor take away from it is that um all that the paradigm is doing this it's um it's it's showing you know which groups uh segments pattern more with each other than they do with what comes to the left or right if that ordinarily right so that's why with uh you know with mountain english for example i mean the only thing that we really see our uh singular plural and 'cause i said um because those are the things uh those items go together more than say you know like a noun an attitude that comes before or an outlet effort that comes after it right um so what what happens with these paradise is that they will be language specific um and um [noise] and it seems like language is kind of likes to arrange things ah in paradise for uh it it'll just be different language by language suffer and and how they get filled out we'll be different so for example um in english it's really important to have this distinction between past tense uh perfect tense perfect progressive uh ask progressive er yeah er these forms are going to be filled up with a separate words so it's like you know i yeah i <unk> i was eating <unk> i have eight and i <unk> i have been eating um but those types of distinction aren't going to be as important for a language that just distinguishes um imperfect from perfect yeah uh or or rather they will make those kind of distinctions in a way but they will just be an interesting because like you know the um [noise] the simple pass will be identical to the uh present perfect that we have an english yeah always say so just won't look very interesting uh the language itself will probably <unk> you know <unk> <unk> the language is going to recommend or it seems to work in such a way that it sets up these paradise which is why you know like in german with now you have seen it learned plural and now i'm in an excuse to dictate it engendered it it doesn't <unk> express like you know uh you know like er finishes you know or or sony has fourteen now in case it it doesn't mean that you can't translate anything that's in those extra now in cases in a german it just means that they won't look as interesting they won't pattern together as closely um as the words too in finish i'm sorry donated right um and that's why the ah the noun paradigm only has the two numbers and before um and the four cases uh it's kinda like you know with uh with the dual number like you could say that every single language as a dual number it's just that in english it's not very interesting uh outside of the we're both [laughter] mhm <unk> more like or gender even i know like <unk> and russian <unk> english genders not shown hooked on your contribution right <unk> in fact even in even in second person pronouns so it's like you know what's the second person plural feminine prone out an english you [laughter] it's like the office all those points back to the thing that i said in the first place which would make the language than analyze it because uh yeah different analyses will work better for different languages um you know i i was thinking before you know morphine work work really really well if you're analyzing chinese you can't actually necessarily build chinese with more pinch 'cause it had some oddities like um compounding sooner names and stuff because chinese compounding was not about so much building meaning some smaller unit as it was uh a strategy to uh to deal with tom of phones mhm so by somebody that isn't itself very interesting by the way when it comes to <unk> [noise] so you know you can build thing build things and then analyze them and see about what what best makes clear when you're writing your actual grammar what you've already done one thing i'm going to refer back to one of my own language is one thing that uh uh uh a small little bit that i think i did right you can't guys can judge me as you will um but i and i was making words and i <unk> i would <unk> just i <unk> die too verbs just sort of haphazardly not really paying attention to what it meant or what what purpose it served and i thought oh i'll just figure it out later i had some vague idea that it had to do with trends duty later on i was writing the grammar and analyze that and it turns out you can look at the grammar to see what it is but it basically has like two different <unk> it can have like two different um <unk> combination old meaning sort of basic morphine <unk> meaning and also there's some words that i just looked at it i'm like okay it made sense in the past but the the the the <unk> warm has drifted since then and now it's just uh different watching [laughter] right yeah yeah <unk> and that's i think part of the fun and it's also something that um i know we plug us before but i have played again that as you translate more text as you work with meal i either doing translation or writing original stuff as you use your language more uh these things are gonna come out um and yeah it makes it full or it makes it more interesting makes more realistic it seems like this uh paradigm work really lightens you're alone a lot but it <unk> it does and it's kinda like it's almost like you sit down and you think about what what <unk> what am i going to want to be like <unk> or dramatically important and the <unk> you know what do i want to do i want to reflect and then it's like you know almost ah setting up a paradigm itself is um it's it's kind of like a a really interesting creative act uh and then you know when it comes down to fill in it and it's you know it's it it it takes on any level but um you know it's [noise] if you uh for for me it works i'll say that for for me it works um i've been i've been doing it out for at least seven seven years uh and i've been on the result okay well i'll just 'cause they're going to say it seems like you're trying to do it from the morphine side it's almost like a ton of building the scene but you're <unk> trying to design every talk first and then put it all in there to make it all worked out perfectly whereas if you just look at the whole thing and you're like okay i need this piece on the right to move on put that with the people left and just work with an <unk> basically a knife set you can see it working together better yeah um one last thing i was going to mention is even when um you are talking about these cases and these um and you know maine's of cases means of aspects and and stuff even that to some extent yeah it's not really a framework but it is <unk> you're using established knowledge and came up sports should do translation and see how you're cases and how your uh moods are are you one thing that um well <unk> with the tracking you just <unk> with all your <unk> and just use your you just said okay this is the <unk> the cases called this and this is what the the standard definition of that cases and just went that way you would not have come up with your awesome uh idea of the case marking determining like the weather an action was completed or or just partially done right yeah um and i and thank you for bringing that up because that's another point i i've actually seen on the <unk> a lot of people are it's like you know really struggling it's like oh i don't know what to call this case that's like cares [laughter] call it anything you <unk> if you're gonna be the <unk> how does it work i just need to name and then it's a question is how does that work in fact really getting you could even just called in case a. b. c. n. d. if you want and then after you after you've done and you started to realize you start to work with case and see how it works you know in translation then you could see what label fits the best if you bought um but but even so it's like there's yeah there there are so many things it just looking at data it's case uh in the <unk> natural language is the world over and see all of the things that it can do they're going to be things that have in common but it's like they're going to be quirky uses of a data case in one language that will not be the same quirky a bearing uses of the date of case in another language you know yeah um data and is there a big one that one but all <unk> anything um that's something that sort of happened to me with what moods dry rio is i have like five moods but after looking at them i <unk> uh i just had like the standard <unk> definitions and then as i got two translating and stuff i realized i had to figure out okay how <unk> mood interact with pets and then i also made these like um these uh <unk> auxiliary and i thought okay how does how does the mood interact with that and the meetings are not necessarily composition old they're just sort of like this this and miss ended up being used for this purpose that's the kind of thing that you need to be doing and just don't don't worry about what the the label named just <unk> uh a label on there that sort of kind of covers or meaning of it and go from there yeah [laughter] uh man it's good stuff oh by the way here's another another random <unk> to ah morphology being used to do stuff there wasn't intended to egypt to really common uh <unk> uh it's written with a double your now because it was also w so that you could have perish british means house and pet <unk> that means um houses but if you attach it to <unk> you get a nominal a station uh [laughter] yeah ah so but that's that's the thing is uh additives also agree with <unk> number so you'd say you know <unk> like a beautiful house and uh <unk> beautiful houses but <unk> by itself is a noun and i mean perfect <unk> um and they did that with all kinds of with all kinds of ah <unk> ah fun stuff middle language language <unk> disappoint <unk> never felt the mine was awesome oh <unk> no <unk> ah sorry i said the raunchy language never fails to do <unk> opposite of discipline never fails to amaze [laughter] <unk> [laughter] i do that [laughter] awesome oh [laughter] i just thought one thing and said the opposite right on there no <unk> no [laughter] oh [laughter] [noise] seriously there but you're going to play the old part now yeah [noise] it was the oldest of three i mean it was not not <unk> no i mean obviously be obviously i'm the oldest yeah it's it <unk> i take very much older than us so um yeah you're probably in your twenties right by a little bit yeah yeah yeah <unk> thirty one oh wow you are old yes sir but you look like you're about fourteen that's right i'm gorgeous like uh like a young girl [laughter] if you if you get close though you can't see and this is true i do have grey hairs um and actually a couple of white hairs which is really alarming um so you know just stay at a distance then you know admire me i'm sure that one day in the future i'm going to go from looking young too instantly looking like you know seventy or eighty or ninety and it's going to happen you know night oh [noise] uh [noise] some <unk> some people are like that you know like that i i i don't know you guys or or i don't know if your baseball france be <unk> you know a chipper jones ah no okay but you gotta you gotta like a trip or jazz or at least older picture that trip or job he came into looking like fresh taste kid kind of like a cowboy it looked like he should have been uh like uh chewing on a piece of a straw or something you know lack mystery address pass my my bird farm i don't know he had them up to him uh he was just great guy and he's a great baseball players actually plane his final year right now he made it to the all star game and um so you know i i since it was a spy on your side you know i just stopping in a few of these games because i remember when he came in italy and i look at his face and it was just oh my god he's old now it's just suddenly it happen overnight he was young for like the first fifteen seasons of his career today he gets old and you can see it in his face and i was oh my goodness that was a moment for me that was a moment for me you're going to have one or two later on you also lives but uh i was one of my [laughter] uh dear um please wanders <unk> that's <unk> well i think uh we <unk> wrap i know but um just one thing that i know we were ah we kinda glaze over a little bit but um we're talking about the <unk> you mentioned the bear and you said there's nothing in the framework not prevent the paradigm like core and then for accused of singular mentally boston then for the day to fill a quota and then after you're crazy things there it's another pitfall this if you go off yeah <unk> yes and that was yeah that was one of the things i realized that i was working with framework uh and you know as i started to actually work with it uh especially con like with harry potter sprinkler in framework in particular i was like oh wait a minute this makes the police and looks like it should look like it should be you know universally common [laughter] and it's not you know the pollution is obviously the exception rather than the rule [noise] um if you want to see 'em uh kind of like my realization of this when i was playing with it but i i read a spec ram article about it so if you just type system addicts depletion into google uh we'll see [laughter] i i set up the <unk> language that has like you know like three numbers in like seventeen cases and they all are completely combination <unk> except for the elderly have dual which is <unk> [laughter] <unk> played it for <unk> for every single word so it's completely predictable that you will not be able to predict what the i would have dual [laughter] i was like huh uh that's a good one oh oh that's by the way uh just uh just uh i i'm going to try to do that for example quick because i don't run along but if you're if you're kind of at a loss you don't know you're like okay i don't wanna use more things that i don't know what to do like how do you come up with this stuff um i just want to give you a very short example of just how uh historically these things come to be if you just think about our english future tests alright so we have we'll let everything whatever but at some point in time in the very distant past we had expressions like you know i go to london and i go to london to sell well shall we say at some point in time later you could just say i go to sell wool literally meaning i em on this road like you know why are you know why are you where are you traveling well i'm going to sell wool [noise] you know in london if you want to add that that's the purpose of you're traveling somehow people took that and then made the league that well if you go to sell that means you're going to sell will at some point in time in the future and so they became a a kind of a little optional future <unk> though you know i know i i go to sell right then eh separately we had our uh course um at the progress of becoming a new uh present so that uh now you know longer say you know huh [laughter] you know hi george what do you uh i caught lying at present no say like what are you doing i'm kinda like [noise] um so then we have you know i am going to sell wall uh and then this under went some phone a logical production so that you know first s. i. n. became <unk> so i'm going to sell wall and then we had another further little production so you'd say i'm going to sell wall and then two had its own reduction from two to huh and then that i'm going to the war kind of had its own reductions that you have i'm gonna sell war and that um it kind of reduced even further so that you didn't have to say i'm going to sell all you could say i'm going to sell wall and in that itself has reduced now so that you have a war [laughter] and if if you're a death in certain <unk> and not only yeah and not only that you could take it to the other pronouns and you say you know i'm a <unk> right and so if you if we didn't have if we weren't so widely literate you know if we <unk> everybody didn't read and rights and you know we didn't have access to this stuff you get to see how eventually you know you hear somebody speaking this way and pretty soon do you think well that's just the way you do it and so what started out as a super long phrase becomes a series of success and not only that <unk> that very whether they've been added to a concert at file or or a foul final word uh with uh what looks like an epidemic end but in fact i just came from the end from going are gonna right and so that's a type of stuff that produces uh a lot of our morphology um yeah the only difference between now and then with that back then we weren't all writing and reading i i really think that's the difference but that's not on controversial so yeah that's uh well but again gets a little bit into syria you know whether or not uh writing ah literacy uh had what what effect literacy has on language if any and i'll grant assault yeah yeah so we we we don't want to necessarily get into that argument but um that i think is a good note to leave off arm sort of um and i definitely think the historical approach is important i noticed that um [noise] i noticed that once when i just doing <unk> first minimum sort of historical thing oh running i you'd rio true sound changes and i sort of even ran the the whole sort of a noun <unk> through um through sound changes that made me look and say oh i would never done this by myself and um i know that's even just like the beret simplest thing you can do when you also could also just like start law ming words together and stuff so uh we're losing losing <unk> apparently but i think that is i'm i'm going to stop my rambling now and i'm going to ask david you have any final words was oh [laughter] okay my um well i think that was very very very large words wisdom um you know i would [noise] he he he said a lot right there um i don't know if i can really build on that so i'll go pull a different direction but um <unk> are awesome uh you know when he first told me about this uh about you know just like <unk> i was like what what do you mean what what do you have there no morphine [laughter] and i'm very much stuck in my little box but i <unk> not even my learn spanish memorize them paradigm form and even when we were um we didn't learn okay yes as the you form and then the next week if you learn you know <unk> you learn it in paradigm so building off of that um i'd say you know definitely just don't be afraid it sounds scary but it's really not that bad it's it's awesome and um of course that always remember i'm not sure if my accents off but i'll try that you you keep working on it but that was pretty good from guyana i'll try i'm gonna break a little bit and add a little bit my own words with them first mhm my my my my take away from this thing is um from this one at least the thing that i'm going to point out and tell everybody to do is make your language even like uh i mean and even to the point of doing some translation [noise] before you start to analyze it again and horrible i think that [noise] that will [noise] uh there's there's some there's some drawbacks to doing it that way uh you you have to be careful not to be [noise] you do a whole lot of fun i'm not a relaxing but i think [noise] that is one sort of [noise] many technique that you can do to help some of the problems that we've been discussing but other than that i'm just gonna say <unk> thank you for listening to con language you could find our our <unk> dot com you can send functions comments or topic or featured language suggestion [noise] to con lying or e. i. g. e. mail dot com to submit upon langhorn outlying breeding for the top of the show see are contributing hatred detailed <unk> provided by the language creation society and our <unk> the music is by known device [noise]

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Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 70 Practicum — the Pitfalls of Frameworks (last edited 2017-09-08 11:40:04 by TranscriBot)