Conlangery #72: Relative Clauses

Conlangery #72: Relative Clauses

Published: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 05:03:59 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 [noise] [noise] <unk> language is people who create them i'm george carlin and [noise] over in maine now we have <unk> hello and over in california we have david <unk> michael [noise] yes i was just always say hello what am i going like oh [laughter] yes is actually response it's not they're not symmetrical okay yes right gosh my cat adorable i mean why don't they don't have good yep we're recording an odd because you just got back from uh flying oh somewhere and talking about defiant yeah yeah it's right in fact i uh i completely do real this this pod cast episode and so if you're listening to this it's been basically completely ruined by me and i want you to i want you to remember that as we go for my fault [laughter] lately my fault [noise] and i apologize [noise] uh but anyway uh so uh there was a there was a big uh digital <unk> for uh the <unk> the show i'm working on called defiance it's coming out in april and um they actually uh they actually had me come out and get a a very short uh presentation other languages i'm doing pretty quiet and i think it went pretty well uh i've seen their video on line 'cause i did not do there isn't there isn't video on lie i actually you take a ten minute video but it wasn't uh my part because i thought that would be a little awkward um but what i heard was that they were you um find themselves were actually videotaping the entire presentations series that also included a presentation from um the visual effects guy and ate panel with uh the actors and ah and also kevin murphy the creator um and they said that they were going to distribute that video too uh all of the press that was an attendant i i don't know if i'm also going to get one or if that then they're going to put it on line somewhere but i hope that they do because so far i've only seen i've seen three pictures with meat in them and they look very awkward uh much more attractive uh other than that and i think that um what happened was like i need to be moving around in order for you to see how attractive i am you can't capture that attractiveness and still photo uh [laughter] [laughter] so i mean you know i i i really do hope that they put it on on line i'd like to uh watch that just for your attractiveness but also for uh the info on languages oh yeah and uh there's a there's at least uh some stills up a couple of the things that i put up so you can actually see some of the some of the writing systems and see if anybody can figure them out here uh to to <unk> and it's still a barry mm okay yeah [noise] uh i and also i mean i was kind of kind of disappointed there was one part i was showing some symbols and i said you know but you know this is what the number five looks like this number thirty five looks like if anybody guess what the base is yeah like the numerical basis and and nobody <unk> nobody even venture to gas [laughter] ah so anyway that's that's interesting and we'll watch and see if that video pops up but uh uh that sounds cool but we have a topic today to talk about why we are going to talk about something david you really are uh into i guess um uh something probably everybody's gonna have to do a lot of thinking about in their <unk> is how do you handle relative clauses [noise] how much the studio audience wasn't there [noise] um so relative flaws just you know i'm sure most people listening no but they're just in case there's some some uh new people on it's uh uh relative clause in english <unk> you can uh it's like when the uh the man that i saw yesterday uh that i saw yesterday as a relative claws its claws but usually is modifying in now and um usually that now is also like somehow part of the relatives clauses well sort of sort of some ethically here we have the the <unk> definition heroes claws the kind of subordinate claws uh one who's argument shares <unk> with the main claws element on which this born clauses dramatically depend [laughter] that should that should make it clear which is hey hey hey <unk> very much more worry way of saying what i just said i think [laughter] [noise] yeah i think uh one of the things to to remember if this is the it's like that's a closet modifies and now i'm just like you know an adjective would yeah say the the red man or the man that i really wanted to smack with fish [laughter] yes [noise] now did you hear the dog [noise] here's something i thought they were birds [noise] background [laughter] anyway [laughter] oh dear listeners i apologize for my dog in that neighborhood [laughter] ah [noise] yeah so uh where do we want to start with relative classes [noise] well um well right at the top the notes here i don't know mike where you're the one that put all this stuff this it looks like ah these are um uh a few um starting with a few options on ah where to put your relative cause um there's you put your head final versus hit initial yeah and actually i would like to to qualify this but first i think it's it's easiest to just give an example uh using english words even though we don't have um yeah kind of the uh the head final relative cost version just so that uh people that were talking about so um typically with had initial languages are in fact most languages you have a relative clause that comes after the now so for example um you know uh uh the woman that i gave a book to mhm let's just start with that one we're not gonna deal with [noise] ah that's how we do it in english and in a lot of other uh had initial languages are predominantly <unk> languages in some but not all head final languages are you actually sometimes see the complete opposite of that yeah so it's the the woman i was a woman that i keep a book to it would instead be um the i. b. okay wait wait <unk> give a book to them and uh no <unk> not <unk> completely had final would be um the eye books gay woman yeah yeah it was like chinese has not yeah chinese and japanese and you know yeah [laughter] um in chinese um like your relatives <unk> is the particles uh so uh modify our particle which is the same with the jazz a janitor particle right yes it's amount of yeah yeah yeah um it's uh it's it's it's a <unk> it it can link adjectives to now but uh yeah it does a lot of things so um and um i think i have no where you're going with sort of making a <unk> is um at least my thought is that relative clauses are very heavy <unk> and in a lot of language is even if they are um had fun when languages heavy elements can sort of ended up moving toward the end uh collecting towards the end of a phrase is that partly where you were going that yeah and um so it's like with the with you know with the head initially you you see the most common word order which is what we have an english okay but then with head final languages while you do some times have you got a fully rented uh relative claws like we just gave an example of often you'll see them you know just shifting it to be more standard position which is you know after the head uh just because you know as a result of heavy ships yeah with a relative claws that's all built up in the front you have to get through all this stuff before you hear what the head is which can sometimes be taxing uh to uh working memory especially the relative clauses long so often they'll be kind of like prepare strategies even uh for those that do have kind of be had final version um if it gets too long ah now there's another type that i guess it's a it's a language is predominantly had <unk> had final um it will also have um relative clauses that are internally headed but uh that actually is jumping head a little bit uh yeah yeah more complex but um i think just type a logically in say the most common relative claws type that we have an english and then like like let's call it and see these numbers are going to be needing to let's say they do it's called at seventy five percent and then every may twenty five percent it's gonna be cut up like these opposite relative clauses that are completely had file or um internally headed relative clauses and then there's a smaller marching other types of stuff and i'm sure we'll get see okay so there's a few different things involved in figuring out um my <unk> did you have anything else <unk> anything to say on that particular point i'm positioning yeah [noise] um not really just up there you know pretty we put us mentioned a lot of um [noise] just that <unk> <unk> or if it maybe switch is the word order for when you have a relative claws um i think that can come we can talk about the after we <unk> what happens in them i think 'cause yeah yeah and look up look what you're talking about how they get a little bit ah further screw uh there's um there's a whole lot of different i'm not exactly sure where to start in these notes so far uh but i think the techniques here from uh from the wolf chapters uh maybe a good thing to to go through so there are several different strategies you can have and yeah relative pronouns strategy that um that exist in english [noise] where you can use who or that or um what sometimes what ah for a uh two um introduced a relative claws and not pronoun it's rougher current is the head of the real well um <unk> let's let's stop there and at least ah examined there's there's a little bit of a distinction to be made there you know we have um we have that which we can use in english um but it doesn't work exactly the same way as who did that is more of an indication that uh relative clauses [noise] i mean and it could also be used for <unk> like just did in that previous sentenced um either right at whereas uh and it isn't actually <unk> with the um <unk> it isn't actually <unk> with with the uh targeted relative <unk> per se where's the who would be yeah okay and there is a very nice example any [noise] whereas i got here oh describing more syntax but i need to find [noise] [laughter] and i'd be so exciting when i find when um i think with who like you were mentioning [noise] you know who at least in form of an older forms of english we used to be who who <unk> and a degree in case marketing and i know i'm i'm you can also say if you're using who you can you can definitely say that it has something to do with what the head is because who is only available for an intimate uh referred foreign animate had yeah the the inanimate version is which i believe w. h. i. c. which uh some people will put what but that's sort of uh a uh uh i don't know <unk> highlight was that um that doesn't really the <unk> that doesn't really change with case and i mentioned later on that case marking but you can see it on on who and who <unk> which i know a lot <unk> whom anymore but russian has a full case of someone i use <unk> which declines with respect the case for the uh invented claws <unk> and i do have i got my english example now this is thanks thomas paint here uh it gives these examples of ah you know and english we can all but sometimes you nothing indicated relative claws but we have an example here where for example you can use relative pronoun who but you can't use either the other strategies i hate the alligator who's teeth are huge that's good teams i suppose that's a form of who who'd yeah yeah me too i i hate the alligator who's teacher huge uh then you try this one i hate the alligator teeth are huge <unk> that you can't have a gap and then this one i hate the alligator bats teeth are cute [noise] [noise] you also can't the only other when you think of his teeth are huge but that's usually just whom uh instead of who's like that how that that actually brings up um a couple things really but um that brings up a question i'm going to ask uh a little bit later but first we wanna say so we have the relative <unk> um the other strategy that you just mentioned is the capping strategy where um you may have a relative eyes were were you may not but the main thing is that in the relatives claws there is a gap we're the the uh whatever referring to the to the head would be so when i say like the man i saw yesterday right <unk> any any any anything to ah to confuse the point uh in linguistics papers you may um see someone uh put that kind of example down and and write it down as the man i saw blank yesterday the trace right yeah because that blank you know is not actually a real thing that people say but the point is the third highlighting that um the the uh the man in this case is also the object of the relative paws but he is emitted from the all relative loss it doesn't happen that has to have happen that way you can also have a a a relative closet has pronoun retention where you would say something like the man i saw him yesterday and that and that strategy is actually common in the medical languages that [noise] that usually do that um with that particular strategy the only time where you don't see it is where uh it's when the target of <unk> is a subject so it's like you wouldn't say uh the man that he saw me yesterday that <unk> apparently never happened you'd only say even even with the <unk> you would still say the man that sodomy and that's an arabic specifically <unk> yeah yeah and uh so the least that's one of the language is you know it's always the example it's used uh hebrew arabic uh use those yeah <unk> i thought that um i was thinking for some reason that uh man two languages had ah um [noise] had printed retention any time but i don't know enough about to actually <unk> is that um there was <unk> find out yeah yeah <unk> <unk> that you know <unk> uh well that's okay <unk> <unk> that is that different from pronoun retention because i thought <unk> was was basically yeah i've i've got i've got i've got a really good uh swahili reference they're just gimme gimme a cycle i'll come back to and like you know huh mm [laughter] i just got off the dumpster pronoun was what was retain the <unk> yeah that's what i was thinking <unk> yeah um what is this non reduction strategy might that you find that anywhere well i was reading through the the all annoying um <unk> and it was um same up there the full full fledged non phrasing the embedded claws so for example um [noise] let's say let's see in english so let's see um it's a cute so it seemed like i took for example i think the <unk> in english would be i took the girl you see over there out on a date which where the two phrases are regardless see over there and then i took her out on a date but with a full <unk> productive for um it looks like it'd be i took u._c. to go over there out in a daze so it's twofold there's no reduction or two full clauses with no traces not know camping um it says that these are used in ah well that's that's a court of claws strategy hindi and i'm i'm okay so these are the internally headed relatives constantly yes similar uh it sounds <unk> might use this but uh you know our our local now who are actually british not here [laughter] um that is really interesting it <unk> in general the non deduction is restricted divert final languages don't as more common among those that are had marking um honor um again this is where he peed you're talking so yeah this is only the smartest people who <unk> who contributes but yeah so um but that's an interesting very interesting but i i took the girl you see over there out on a date i might have to figure that out and use that because i have not seen something like that before um one thing i think that i'm not sure if we'll get around us but i think that we're doing great job <unk> a natural languages [noise] but we could also uh mentioned how <unk> what we're used income constructed languages or how one like um you know found them um available pound just well um i don't know do you have anything because i was going to mention something i i <unk> but um they're tired rio relative clauses are kind of boring in some ways but i um i i've got i've got good stuff there but um ah ah actually <unk> talk about but um i do have uh something to report now from swahili no not if we're interested at first they have uh kind of three different types of relative strategies [noise] one is a very very simple um uh <unk> just like who so they have a relative pronoun um by which you can uh put into any of that now cases and said like you could say you know <unk> <unk> it's made the person who has <unk> so that one works pretty much exactly like english too they have another one where you can only use this in certain ten <unk> in the present definite affirmative tense and simple past affirmative tense in the future affirmative tense and then they say a single negative tents ballot for the present passed in future so it's like it you you it's it's a negative tense but it applies to all attempts as as opposed to having different ones which they do an ordinary clauses and this one basically you add kind of uh it's i think it's in the place where you would have an object prefix in front of the verbal route and it just means like i i guess it kind of stands for who but like you know the entire free it's here it's like uh first one or two and i <unk> i <unk> uh they're the <unk> yeah and it means the person who roommates and so the verb itself means who roommate right mhm and so it almost becomes like a relative verb or it's like a marker oliver that says this <unk> only applies to the previous now and so they're more complex examples that they have they have like you know uh by <unk> by the guess will arrive tomorrow we'll go to santa barbara first word is uh <unk> which is i guess so it could also meet strangers um and then the second word is that oh who will arrive tomorrow right and so it's just like that sets it off as a full noun phrase um that was the second strategy and i don't i at least i'm not seeing ah what ah oh and this one okay there's a it looks like there's a different one that only they use just with pronoun mhm mhm and it's it's basically like you take those same prefix is the ones that were in direct object position and then you put them after the <unk> so that's the only difference here uh with one time they come before the river with one <unk> after the verb group um and it's used uh kind of like with pronouns or what generic things and they have a whole bunch of interesting uses wow got a such a cool language anyway sorry not um the marketing it on the <unk> that's actually something i've done before not think <unk> probably not exactly like swahili but uh like 'em both in your apartment so it's it's interesting that i had no idea of anything like that before that but i ended up putting that in um i thought we were just talking about the non reduction strategy where um you just have or i think that's what you mean by internally we're headed relative clauses right where you just put a whole <unk> to replace the ah the the modified <unk> uh kind of <unk> but <unk> it's almost like you know you you take you know the head of your of your class raise the <unk> you just taps kind of like marking on the <unk> which lets you know basically this thing isn't the main are both the clause like okay uh kind of like functionally that's what it does um even if that's not necessarily it's history yeah mhm um and it seems like that's kinda how this is working in swahili because you know a lot a lot of times you can mix things around and you know things are tact based on you know the non class prefix and so it's kind of important to to be able to distinguish you know like this thing is the matrix bourbon this thing it's not the matrix bird since it's not going to happen just by linear precedence mm okay yeah anyway that's that's my oh wow oh my god on the uh war sorry okay no no ours um another example in the <unk> the mentions uh there was an <unk> internally headed relative claws <unk> says i saw the man yesterday went home and it has i saw the man yesterday in uh <unk> and then one home and other uh in the matrix claws and and it's uh <unk> internally had because there was you know i guess uh matrix cause had isn't side of the embedded claws right and it just happened to mention how it's um [noise] at least i on the on the <unk> you're looking at it doesn't say how you know which one is the head like um <unk> is there is a like a marker on the man some yeah that's that's seems a little tricky especially if you have if you allow um different things to be relative vons which is a hundred dollar entirely different like tossed aside georgia went home for example yeah or or <unk> george went <unk> something like that you know yeah where where it's like in controversy with the two things are the same status yeah mhm um that kind of leads into another thing that you almost would have to have some sort of marketing to show what's the head of unreal claws wouldn't you unless you have um yeah unless you're relative clauses are restricted which that's another thing that happens is english is actually kind of weird in that we can relative eyes basically anything yeah uh up to and including the objects proposition which is kind of odd um and the professors which is really odd yeah um so there's actually a hierarchy of what you can relative odd this is on the roll it has in the relative claws so um and it goes you know basically pretty much all languages you can run if i was the subject uh the next one in the hierarchy is direct object indirect object then oh bleak which would be sort of um i don't know <unk> or objects the propositions [noise] and then possess or is the last one so yeah it's it's a really strange that um english allows that and has <unk> structured [noise] i think actually a european languages in general are strange and then they allow lots of different kinds of <unk> <unk> but many languages don't and they use things like passive voice or <unk> just waste tricks and stuff <unk> lives to fill in those gaps so they can stick something in a subject position so that they can run from vice of it but um yeah that's uh that's precisely what i did with ah collie which was my my first kind of experiment with that a comic how we can only relative eyes off of the subject <unk> can't even do a direct object and so what you have to do then is to relative i thought the direct object you using passive um comic how he doesn't really have indirect objects but you could do a kind of just use a passive on uh i'd ever bet might take a direct object and it would be understood for everything beyond that you have two years out of <unk> uh and they direct <unk> andy passive in other words like uh if you wanted to say like uh the the crafts on ah the grass i saw the woman on what you would say with the um the uh uh uh how 'bout the grass i saw the woman <unk> uh is green the grass that and then i saw with a <unk> and with a pass it and then a woman [laughter] wow um [noise] i just linked something over uh <unk> i found that was uh it's a little um [noise] a p._d._f. files of unintentionally headed belgium clauses in japanese <unk> and i have some pretty good um you know go off and then it goes through <unk> that's in the er i saw the uh japanese the relatively close just came before the head soon <unk> internally headed for example john picked an apple <unk> an apple which is on a place that has a [noise] <unk> it's and it's all written uh reminds you suck and read it but <unk> i dunno or <unk> <unk> which is uh john topic apple nominate of yeah it's basically all run out there and it has uh <unk> it was let's make my head hurt because they are okay yeah i see uh yeah it's it's it's like saying ah as for drawn an apple was on a plate he picked it up yeah something like that yeah and then two ways the one that you usually expecting japanese right mhm yeah yeah it'll be down and mentions the ah not a <unk> samples are really nifty um and some of the you know things that can and can't do compared with japanese [laughter] so so it's that's interesting i i actually didn't know about this the first one the internally headed relative causing japanese so it's um it's an <unk> it looks like you're using a novel <unk> practical uh picked up since john picked up an apple being on the late [laughter] yeah i'm not pleading john picked it up yeah yeah gosh that's weird [laughter] ah [laughter] i could just awesome [noise] uh but but that is quite quite quite uh <unk> yeah uh so [laughter] and i'm a vice that and let's make up the subject [laughter] um uh japanese does have passive but i don't know how it works [noise] oh my goodness japanese passes are really interesting because they have a bunch of different types of passes including white which is only used when something bad happens yeah um yeah it's it's completely undercover a bowl what role ah like the the the thing had in the the the topic had in whatever's going on you just have to figure it out contact [laughter] yes with the the uh it's it's passive that actually for the stereotypical purpose but people think passive before [noise] but anyway this is not about passive um but um so you mentioned i'm sorry um [noise] they <unk> um my my example that i really like with relatives getting back to the topic of the show uh i like rushing away russian does it it just has a a relative pronoun but i really like that it declines the case and it kinda like who in whom but it's much more interesting because russia has much richer k. system none of richards finished but you know it's pretty nifty that way yeah <unk> pretty easy to figure out what's going on <unk> ah yeah once you got to caissons down so so basically uh declines for okay now who you're actually what it does uh-huh what it does um it so for example i gave me 'cause i'm <unk> which is just like which an english like which um and agrees russian has gender and it has um well gender number in case senate greece and gender number with the now in in the matrix claws and egg reason um case with whatever role expelling severe saying okay the girl <unk> or um the girl you know swims the girl and then <unk> in the matrix alright but it actually <unk> you 'cause it's accused of and then uh yeah so it links 'em together very nicely <unk> mhm so i wanted to ask something about that because um so russian the case comes from the role in the relative clause that are kind of what i would expect usually mhm uh but for some reason when i was um building i'd rio for some reason i also had a relative pronoun that agrees with a case in gender uh-huh but for some reason i was thinking you know what if there was a situation where you could have agreed with the case in the matrix claws but i i don't know is there a language that ever does that because i thought of trying to i i've uh i think i have it actually written down that way but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do that do it that way i uh the closest phenomenon i can think of is ah racing mhm where are you know say something like i i want him to eat where can't miss the subject uh eat but um it's getting it's accused of case for the matrix verb and so it looks like an object um that's the that's the closest thing i think of uh yeah no that's a different but if it is different situation it is but in principle um you know i i wonder if uh well you know the place where where you would see it actually and you know i'm going to forget the language the place where with a heavy <unk> um and i know there was a language where this happened uh but in this case you don't get just <unk> the matrix uh case you get full because what happens is you know <unk> it has to agree with everything else in case so you get something that has you know non native accused of instrumental if there are three rolls and the one that's something that i was thinking about uh but i never really figured out a way that i like to uh mark the two different cases um one thing one thing i think uh one reason i was thinking about was um so uh i for some reason like the idea of uh like the leading the head of a relative claws and i think that's why i was thinking of what how would you resolve the case of the relative pronoun in that case if you use route bruno i'm kinda thinking that you might not even want to try it so well i just thought of a way that you could do it you know and and where i think it would make sense that would be if you are relative pronoun um relatively darker actually originated it's a lot of fire and now <unk> i'm way and that there was a <unk> agreement let's say it started out as an advocate for some reason mm and so um the uh the now the the the the relative pronoun would take whatever case but now i'm was modifying would have so if it was an object then it would take object case and in this language you could only relative eyes off the subject so i mean it wouldn't matter you wouldn't need to know what case the thing was playing in the relative clause because you knew it was always gonna be the subject the <unk> yeah i guess you could do that that's uh sort of i don't i i think i may revert back to it just takes a quite case it uh that belongs to it in the <unk> but i may find out a way for future language to make a little <unk> too so we don't really show the kiosks anymore because i just have too much set in stone now to go about um mocking about what's ah what's ah what's going on there so so um yeah so i i i will file that suggestion away if i ever um go for another language that i want to have that kind of weird agreement thing going on so um yeah and remember remember passes and flick it is 'cause they can be my helpful situation oh yeah um so ah we've covered a whole lot of uh things you have to do what any other sort of random i know we kind of gotten off on a tangent with my aunts my specific question but ah <unk> why would i have a couple of things i want her mention so i was going to mention them now yeah <unk> probably get lost in the shuffle which is that um austin in both relative and subordinate clauses you will see remnants of older grammer ah huh grammar that's no longer current so especially in subordinate clauses this is where he will fight older uh verbal forums <unk> off and the um [noise] this is often where you get modern <unk> jumping from they used to be lists like older present tense forms earlier past tense foreign [noise] uh and they now are only scene and um it's more than that clauses and so they get the sub jumped immediate attached to them um and roller clauses a place where you often see um older word order <unk> one of the most common places that we know of uh <unk> uh western speakers <unk> would encounter this this and sherman where um you know say the the uh the man that i gave a book to say you know uh <unk> uh <unk> <unk> who <unk> yeah yeah he uh he he looks gay dick eight or nine you probably see i like going to kick it well anyway there's some situation where you don't have to be two in there where you get the complete um you know basically s. o. v. word order and and it's only in the relative pauses or also subordinate clauses that happen german which was the older world order german itself pretty much uh f._b._i. or at least asked me two o. x. or whatever you wanna call it [laughter] um but um this is uh this is something that i made uh but i made use of in in depth rocky relative clauses [noise] where the older we're order of the language is uh yeah so um it turned into it asked me all language do mainly to um topical the station that kind of drag the subject out in front ah but in relative clauses uh you will see the return uh via so we're order when uh the targeted realization isn't subject because obviously if it is a subject then yeah there'd be no difference [noise] um but you know if it's the object then suddenly the subject goes into a post verbal position and only in relative clauses uh-huh just kind of a place where you just ah take a look at an older formal language and um and it's i think it's something to consider when you're creating a language it's one of those spots where you can uh showcase uh some of the work that you've done with the history of language yeah you can <unk> that's a very good sort of suggestion too um mix up word order or using older word order in uh relative pauses or um that that can give your language a little bit of a sense of <unk> if you're um if you're looking to show and and admitted lee we're all naturalistic <unk> so that's that's kind of the kind of thing that we're we're into you know um yeah if you were not an naturalistic caught lying or uh very in the world order might be a good way simply to the market relative claws yeah it was true um might you might need to use a grown out you know like <unk> it's supposed to adapting strategy in situations where you wouldn't actually see the <unk> the very end word order because the crucial element is missing but yeah this idea yeah now i'm thinking about how how do you like <unk> do relative closet like uh does does lunchtime actually have relatives clauses as we would <unk> understand them [laughter] [laughter] does it does it do things like uh like formal semantics so [noise] i just found one on uh mm yeah oh really uh single just google <unk> um <unk> uh do the <unk> exists it's isn't here uh yeah uh it says <unk> looks like it's very after you've i just read through it but [noise] what is this <unk> this is the reference grammar and what uh what is what is this picture <unk> forty but <unk> <unk> <unk> [laughter] [noise] [laughter] [laughter] oh man uh so okay that's <unk> that's a lot of things to read through that we don't really have time for linked linked linked to it all the yeah we <unk> we can link to that that might you have some people who are <unk> a little a few ideas but i think we've gone through most of the options you have parents and um [noise] uh as a um naturalistic online or or an art minor [noise] um and i i think that sometimes you know if you try and things that aren't necessarily just 'cause you don't know the <unk> like you uh george you tried something that you didn't even know is there and it turns out hey there's lines or does it [noise] so if you you know just um you know some of the worst case scenario and somebody that doesn't occur natural language that we've seen yet and you know it doesn't work exactly the way that i was kind of hoping it for it to work but you know that that <unk> the apples um uh [laughter] i don't know exactly what i was <unk> yeah the amount of apples um i think this is one of those topics where it might be very good drawing inspiration it's always good to draw an inspiration from national languages take a look at different <unk> different languages uh form relative closes or the japanese example that we saw is quite ah interesting [laughter] and uh um [noise] uh just uh and the um [noise] do we compete it has a lot of interesting information on i'd definitely recommend people look at that show some examples from english russian <unk> i made a joke about what he peed early but it uh we keep it as good on a lot of uh linguistic topics and it's the articles on route article on roast causes actually quite uh through i think yeah has different languages and chinese and has a hawaiian even it's pretty interesting so i think we can sure rap but uh up just kind of remember some of the things we talked about how uh relative claws are heavy they might end up um moving moving to the <unk> even if you're languages otherwise had initial ah third there's all these different strategies that you can look up each of these strategies if you want to invest it further on how uh how different languages can do um relative clauses and um there's <unk> um and you know there's all sorts of <unk> things you can do with uh how you do case marking or how you do um how what you allow to be relative eyes and uh you know if you don't allow many things <unk> playing around with voicing tricks and all that <unk> uh so uh just a curiosity where are you saying this kind of wrap up roller <unk> um uh do you have you have more stuff to say our course i do but i just let me let me do one let me do one that's gone on a ah we we can go on for a while actually we have plenty we can we can put plenty of time on here uh so okay just just put just put five minutes on the clock here i <unk> i just wanted to talk about 'cause i i think i think and i hope that if somebody listens to still be able to find a <unk> but i think i came up with something unique uh for for one of the language is that i was working on uh for defy uh that that's it's english <unk> everyone fit um but um so this way which has um kind of a rich now in class this kind of like jailer and what you do with the relative clauses that ah <unk> the fur form it's an alternate for for uh that's all they used in relative clauses um but then what happens is there is a an adjective that ends the relative claws there's nothing that indicates that it again but there's an asked at the end of the relative claws uh but it's it's optional if uh the target of relatives that <unk> is is the subject or direct object um obligatory if it's something else but um what happens is that because this pronoun is there you can actually um [noise] and it's co reference with uh you know kind of like it's basically something that indicates that wrote a class this happened and it it's also grease with the matrix now that's been modified <unk> you've actually delete elements relative clause if they are readily apparent from contacts and you can also delete the entire relative claws mhm except for the <unk> and then eventually what it means is like uh like it was it set up the the mad at the woman gave the book too it'd be the man that i said something about [noise] [laughter] <unk> out of the man yeah yeah and so you could actually use it especially if you have long discourse you can just used to refer back to you know like basically just made me out that that dude i was talking about something like that that's that's actually kind of a cool um idea sort of you but you're you're relatively paws kind of yeah it's reduced down to a discourse political or something yeah oh and not only that by the way you can also delete the now that the attitude is modify except the adjective to stand in place for them out [noise] it just give it to reduce down to uh uh uh uh a uh like basically pronoun [laughter] yeah [laughter] yeah special sort of discourse yeah uh i i well the only reason i was like doing a wrap up thing is that we were getting like long awkward silences between things so if you have more things to say then by all means go ahead well well the problem is uh michael keeps linking all of this interesting stuff [laughter] and chat and i keep it going to read it [laughter] i felt on my third call your fault and says all your fault it is and now look what i've done i painted on you that's just kinda guy yeah [laughter] so you if you had all this stuff and let's let's uh let's let's talk about it that the um i i really liked the relatives paws getting reduced down to ah some sort of discourse murder or or <unk> thing [laughter] yeah um i had actually a thing in <unk> in um no <unk> what are my young too relative claws um the the sort of syntax for it you had basically just a special for form and you had that and the the uh relative claws follows that uh um <unk> very militant leave v. o. s. which is i know very strange but uh uh it was my first language um and uh i actually borrowed that for um like compounds that you know how um like the equivalent sort of compounding strategy in english would be like where you say the donkey breeder or ah the ah i can't think of a real example that i'm just not i mean <unk> <unk> did you just say [laughter] bummer sort of an eight bitter shaped like a donkey [laughter] no no no no [laughter] um <unk> this this like um sort of weird uh agent thing <unk> in spanish you do this by having the the <unk> plus uh <unk> so like <unk> so i borrowed relative claws structure morphological structure to make that kind of compound it was it's it's kind of a bizarre thing to do but i i did that in you know you know talk which has already know materials for online pacman i think it's good to call them yellow clauses [laughter] uh [laughter] but uh [laughter] oh oh man you ever had a thing where it's like [noise] <unk> you open up you know your your big reference grammar and you're going through and you have this old uh you know this whole thing it's been in there for a long time and it's all still grammatical correct but you notice that you didn't properly apply i wonder if you're a logical rules oh [noise] [laughter] yeah that happens [noise] now i need to decide oh man yeah that's that's that's going to need to guess fixed [laughter] uh bad boys going to need to get fixed okay so what what what what have you ah <unk> <unk> as far as relevant to the discussion man oh nothing [laughter] not at all i was i was no i've actually i was thinking about my older my old raytheon relative clauses and then like for just for some reason it just stuck in my head it was like wait a minute [noise] that that pronoun oh i was like no there's no way it it could have been that way for like seven months but then no i went and looked at it and yeah it's raw it's wrong i i what i have written as uh the one you should be voting ya oh oh okay yeah it uh it games um friction from previous or or it's more like it just simulates from the the rounding there oh okay it does that before who was well um and i was thinking that there might be some you know fuzzy way around it but no no it shouldn't be funny oh parents it's just so much and i thought it was a simulation okay no no no <unk> uh i think you know the thing is i was so focused on doing the grammar and you know hopefully other call layers well you know this will be familiar that oh so focused on the grammatical that's for writing up this this uh this material relative clauses that um you know what a logical parts of the country the back seat i guess yeah uh but oh well <unk> that's uh well that was an interesting little aside you know if uh uh i'm sure if i if i was looking back through my <unk> i would find errors everywhere i never did like um i made this <unk> and <unk> um funding wacky you know uh uh <unk> crazy alignment <unk> but i don't know how to consistently apply it every time i run into situations where i could use the er <unk> i don't know which one <unk> put in [laughter] yeah you know the the the area that that's the one that you use when you really feel like putting some effort into it [laughter] [laughter] uh uh anyway so yeah we we talked about the hierarchy relative i <unk> right yeah yeah yeah okay uh and and just the mentioned that you know if uh the idea or the theory is that if you relative ice for one on the right side of the list u._r._l. device for everything to the left of it um so you'll never fight a language that relative vices subjects and indirect objects but not direct optics that's right um <unk> i should've <unk> particularly but that's that's sort of how they <unk> hierarchies are set up that's that's another framework but yeah it is and it's uh it doesn't always uh it uh it doesn't always pan out but this one i'm not aware i'm not aware of any language that breaks it mhm ah nine come to mind um and i think it's one of those things where it just uh it would seem really not not counter into it but it just seems silly for a language not to do it like i mean i i mean i just can't conceive of a type of language that we're like the marketing for direct uh indirect objects would be so simple compared to direct objects that would make sense that you know of course you can <unk> indirect objects but direct objects good lord yeah i yeah i i don't i i think i think it probably holds true just for reasons of i mean [noise] <unk> a subject that just seems like it would happen more often than any of these others yeah um but oh but i totally got it though i totally got it okay this is how you can create a language where it would make sense that the indirect objects or relative i but not direct objects uh and and even subjects to basically direct objects are always attached to the purple stem um so you know and if you if you if you if you were to like you know send tactic and semantics theory it's just the way it goes anyway the the direct object 'cause most closely attached to the bird uh that it's the object of so the direct object in the group formed some sort of complex uh oath tactically and photo logically like you couldn't you couldn't <unk> anything between the two and then everything else is basically uh peripheral and that includes subjects and it also includes indirect object and so there are things that you could add to though it's very easily to you know or else vice them but you couldn't do it with direct object <unk> but [noise] wait shoot i think i've got this backwards mhm because when it's sunny and i'm talking to <unk> talking about the <unk> relative claws matrix laws that would be one where you couldn't you couldn't attached a relative costs direct object in the matrix caused because if it's unique composition whoa uh right after you broke your mind to start and you broke your own brilliant idea yeah that's right and made a stranger one yeah kind of way where where i'm innocent tanks horse and we're we we just went over <unk> three which is which is one of the the frame works that <unk> the the verb and the direct object uh directly together so i i understand where you were going with that yeah it's the <unk> one of the uh i think what are the unfortunate uh byproducts at the same work as it forces you to conjecture that all e._s._l. languages are inherently crazy yeah uh i actually brought that up in class at one point and the professors like we'll get to that yeah [laughter] but i think it it's it's like one of those things where um 'cause he's going um everybody who's taken his course before said that you know by the time you get to the advanced <unk> touch her she just basically says uh yeah uh this expert syria that we've been using for for ah most of a semester it does it actually work [laughter] yeah [laughter] but anyway um i don't know any any more uh tidbits on rather causes i think we've got quite a good um [noise] bit of information out there now yeah i i would just to throw a little shut out there for internally edited relative clauses uh uh we don't see a lot of them in <unk> i haven't done them because they're just difficult yeah i <unk> i think it'd be cool yeah uh i think it'd be cool people that um um <unk> and like you know especially people that aren't me that i could just look at them and say well it's awesome but i didn't actually have to [noise] go to the trouble of doing it [noise] you know what i mean you know i have not done any substantial con lying for a long time and i've been itching to get back into doing some con lines so maybe i will for my next <unk> in my next project try to do internally headed [noise] either that or do the the uh one of the uh wacky um agreement ideas that you you throughout early mm thank god do that and then please have the herbs inflict for the short color the object [laughter] i don't know our language is don't do that and that could actually be like almost like a metaphor you know if the object is like heavier light or if it's happier sad [laughter] oh i know another long one other one i've never done i always wanted to do a joke like so it's like you're you're talking about [laughter] you could you could have a bourbon flex for um ah basically how uh uh how attractive to speak or things that the object is that would be one for maybe a williams mall elf language no well i haven't heard about that uh um well william <unk> at one point he made a sketch free language for um <unk> basically it's um sort of taking the stereotypes of uh one one one one uh subset of the stereotypes of like <unk> and putting them into a modern setting and he's like uh they just hanging out in malls and they're obsessed with fashion and very vain and vapid [laughter] which i actually took the idea for a story that i i i started writing but um i don't know uh exactly where that's going yet [noise] um [laughter] i haven't i haven't in corporate any languages in that store though um anyway i think yeah i guess that was pretty much all we could uh come up with right at the moment for this stuff but yeah unless we want to talk about hitler's roller father's butt headless oh well that's okay but uh but uh whenever i'm up here so yeah i um yeah look i'll just say this then uh this is an example from thomas pains describing more syntax whenever i'm afraid i call her try to analyze that stuff when you can you can just imagine what the rest of us would say george <unk> micro with say that uh and then i would say [laughter] what do you think we found like i think so i think so i think that's pretty much all the <unk> [laughter] [laughter] uh [laughter] wow what was my friend again whenever whenever <unk> color wherever i'm afraid i call her nuts out <unk> <unk> yeah i don't know did you hear about someone i call for comfort or she but <unk> [laughter] lost relatives closes is one thing i i was um it's a good halloween topic but that would be interesting to talk about um that making much political cartoon but [laughter] not political but just linguistic cartoon i suppose yeah um but i'm not sure like what a headless relative cosby admit the head [noise] so that's like you know whenever i'm afraid i call her it's basically <unk> the idea is that the head is something like tight and we're like any time that's right but you don't have it yeah but uh whenever whenever i i'm afraid okay so whenever i'm afraid is relative claws yes and oh okay now i get that um <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] see i wouldn't even have classify that as a relative loss in the first place i would have called at some kind of kept pro claws but <unk> but he actually has a pretty convincing example of creole all the next patient and a half to later i'm gonna have to break out my ah my describing <unk> then yeah oh three twenty three twenty nine languages <unk> <unk> <unk> anyway yeah haven't <unk> right now they're okay do stuff they would say say say what you got to say well you get to listen to you [laughter] um well that's another thing but i don't know anything else i can say about that so i think uh unless someone else wants to <unk> to expound more on that subject i think we can go into our feedback you know let's face and stuff for the other shows [laughter] yeah while uh-huh uh-huh and hopefully david will not uh the real things yet again by stopping in reading stuff uh [laughter] uh so we have a feedback er i kind of bumped this up a little bit on in our emails we've we've gotten a bunch of emails recently and i'm going to uh talk about that a little bit but uh this is from why did i not copy his name over um but <unk> this is the guy who's doing the the dictionary what you know his name offhand <unk> ah <unk> my alex think no no the the guy who's got the um no it's not i don't think i mean pull up the actual email sit william <unk> no [laughter] we'll see about us would not be doing the dictionary because i've asked him asked him you know he's supposedly i think yeah i mean i just started listening to the smith okay what everybody know that <unk> are you going to <unk> or not really looking for the name logan yeah logan logan <unk> you know loving personally that's right oh yeah uh he's the guy who actually got funding i'm not going to read [noise] the whole email fluids like but i'll read a few uh but it's like you says thanks for the shot guys i just listen to your police for more feedback on episode seventy one uh i figured i opt finally responded that so here are some of the details of on my <unk> project and i'll put this whole email on the show notes but uh basically so i'm not exactly sure what he's doing but his <unk> he says what he's going to get credit for the semester is being able to important an expert t. p. x. term base files either as permanent logical entries were electrical countries now i don't know what t. b. exes i'm not quite sure what the what permanent <unk> and trees are but it sounds somewhat cool [noise] but um basically uh the whole idea is that um <unk> this list um things that he's doing <unk> could form part of uh sort of a program that can generate a dictionary forty so ah but the whole project was is free and open source and it doesn't actually matter um he says uh <unk> my academic credit depends only on the project getting done by some mean means not on actual who actually rights the code so ah he's crowd sourcing his project so that uh a little bit so that everybody can do is work for him but uh [laughter] [laughter] i like that no i i'm i'm kidding i'm kidding on that i'm sure he's doing plenty of uh his own work on that but uh it looks like as soon as he gets the project rolling it it's not even like when the when the er internship <unk> over and he and he's done with it that other people can hurt other people will be able to see it as he's uh getting it started in and getting things going so we may see um more stuff on this sooner he's got a couple of links to things that he is using in program [noise] uh and um and he'll he said he'll be putting putting the project on get hop so all that says to me is encouraging that ah we may actually have the start of what i hope will be a decent dictionary program for <unk> but uh we'll be able to use because we really need one so thank you very very much logan and uh we will um <unk> when you get uh all your stuff like posted it up uh give us the link to that linked to that so that uh if any of our listeners are uh are into the programming stuff then maybe they can start contributing so uh that fun stuff so [noise] let's wrap up the show uh as long as uh david doesn't try to be real to me with more and more information [noise] uh and and um want to start with you david uh what are your final words was numb [noise] so do you just want me to go over the swahili grammar from the beginning uh i'm gonna take that and i'm going to go to my [noise] all right well ah as far as the i'd say you know learning about the piece of language really give you a better idea of how things can vary with in terms of relatives causes you know once you know okay case can work like best and you can know okay well i can work with case with my meals pronoun or if you just look at you know basically learn about the mechanics of it and not necessarily you know get a p._h._d. in linguistics which is awesome itself but um you know the more you learn about the hobbies the better to be a stretch your brain a stretch where you know one of my concept that you may not have found out in the real world so to speak and experiment with them in your on line [noise] okay that's good that's good i like that yeah that's that's really good advice [noise] and um one thing we didn't mention but i would say one last thing before we go uh i'd say when you're doing the relatives vases like a lot of authors um things like this [noise] also figures and how it fits in with the rest of your language but that may be a topic for the time so finally i'm going to say <unk> thank you for listening to <unk> you could find our our cars and <unk> <unk> dot com you can send functions comments poor topic or featured language suggestions to con winery i. g. e. mail dot com to submit upon langhorn that line greedy for the top of the show see or contribute page for detail [noise] <unk> provided by the language creation society and our team music is by no device [noise] this is your third oh it's not talk like yourself [laughter] hell [noise] what do i what there you go what the government i bought the way i found that out that's enough that you know you sound like you uh did you did you know i can see right now you're you're camera is evidently on really what i can't see us camera [laughter] ah no sorry [noise] really yeah you're fine uh i've gone through like my hair uh your knock out like their response i was going to give ya oh <unk> are you on watching the pod cast to [noise] now i think that there should be like you know somebody just come out with a band called the beatles to orange is better than the beatles you know if you follow it to me it sounded like saying that you know a guitar strings or a type of music and like you know what it just doesn't it doesn't make any sense it's a part of it guitar it's not a style of music so one now that i heard what the <unk> is i mean it's just that thing that they do every so often how is this supposed to be a type of music that's the <unk> yeah yeah it's just the thing you do i just uh that's the which of <unk> [laughter] they have i've had for dumps [laughter] thank you [laughter] know [laughter] okay there's some there's some some for knowledge of somewhere <unk> that has just lost his mind and all he does is put ita on every <unk> that's that's my working cereal yeah but not on they azerbaijan <unk> version of the page i guess so it's simple dollars okay oh man do the picture that they have all those simplified english version is so much less cool and the pictures they have on a regular type stuff [laughter] [noise] that's that's the word for farsi in arabic <unk> really now that's awesome [laughter] no there were <unk> uh they're <unk> that that that would actually be awesome if it was that way because they're <unk> in um the rocky point michael alright so at the end it's three rounds davidson to leave with uh two hundred and forty ah georgia's in second what twenty three and my clothes on the board with one but it's like golf so i'm wondering [laughter] if only if it were that way [laughter] that's a really small they must have a very information does language to have all the information just one line [laughter] life let's say yeah even the chinese doesn't put put that much information in that line hold on hold on a sec i um i can actually read korean i i can't read it out loud but i can translate where it says um uh <unk> uh created in two thousand has nothing to do with guns style please click here for that article where my uncle translate says something totally different yeah i know [laughter] google translate for ya [laughter] gosh probably you're probably says uh by the android phone [noise] it was all like it's it's oh line to the right it's all like backward or something you can you can fix that by simple screening adjustment oh do you <unk> you need a mirror to read this right no no no no i look i mean come on what are we <unk> the modern edge just take you take a computer swivel around and then you'll be able to read it the right way <unk> um you know ordinarily you know i <unk> so i have an f. that does that for me it's called swivel screen but um yeah you can do it the old fashioned way you're using some sort of a non <unk> computer regulated when baseball players have to walk off field 'cause they get wet [laughter] have you seen the most recent uh batman i actually have not no they're they've seen where literally the entire stadium the feel is crumbling and falling down into the sewers below and it still doesn't stop the game heinz word manages to return to kick off for a touchdown what guy this issue but i thought it was a bladder while the baseball game is being delayed airplane reruns of seinfeld and um this is the one where a lane has you know she said it attending her boss and he happens to be eating a snickers where they <unk> nice yep we're just gonna handed over to <unk> down because he wrote down a lot i didn't i just copy and a lot [laughter] i actually uh thought about inviting william back just before this episode but i thought if you david and william we're on the same episode michael might disappear in a black hole [laughter] anyway yeah i know five times in one day [noise] [noise] ah [laughter] that that's a that's a bad is what i'm talking about [laughter] we're talking about different thing okay well i was pretty excited about that so that kind of thing happens to me on all the time because any time i i'd sign up what ah i see a news service i want to sign up for it and grab ga quarterly just in case there's someone with a similar name i'd out there is oh yeah [laughter] like like that that guy um <unk> <unk> i think he's from ukraine [laughter] like a chore [laughter] [noise] [noise] really really anti czech republic it's kind of you know offensive [noise] but uh that's good shortly for you

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  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. language
  5. linguistics
  6. relative clause
  7. relativization

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 72 Relative Clauses (last edited 2017-09-08 13:38:10 by TranscriBot)