Conlangery #74: Vowel Harmony

Conlangery #74: Vowel Harmony

Published: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:35:15 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 <unk> <unk> my <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> [noise] welcome to calm larry languages people <unk> really uh with me and my <unk> where are you right now [noise] right now i'm up in maine okay from maine now it might went skiing [noise] ah [noise] fresh from uh the uh the the very uh from the uh flooded streets of new jersey uh and hurricane trendy and over and very safe orange county california we have david <unk> peterson [noise] who is now i'm not a lot of running for no reason [noise] [noise] [noise] [noise] maybe not common sense of [noise] oh <unk> okay oh okay okay that works good hey hey it's good to be here [laughter] is that what that meant that like nukem i think oh man listen if it <unk> it would of course begin like this [noise] now that i notice about how many in there i think you did son i think he did and you know what that is a great segue to our topic for today today we are yeah when george quarterly no we are not because i'm the moderator supposedly but say for being on the show but uh david is trying to ah segue into vowel harmony here uh so the vowel harmony um do we do right anyway so vow harmony is where some <unk> particular feature vow oh oh val get sort of conditioned by other <unk> in the we're we're usually um rounding or back news or uh advance tongue route um which some some people may referred to <unk> uh uh uh <unk> interchangeable you with the advanced hung route so that's uh um david you wrote this this intro anyway <unk> i think i did yeah [laughter] okay this is what about our money is let's say that you have a word like uh <unk> this is coming from scottish english and let's say you have a <unk> like why if you add it to <unk> you got the law day where it comes out if it but if you had it to a word that ends with uh that begins with a higher about uh let's see how 'bout you mean you get me this is true i actually saw this talk i forget person to get it oh my god no wait no i don't it was married pastor who is now at uh where she where she's <unk> she's <unk> she's not she's not clear much not hardly made she said the other one anyway no can be a lot of anyway but the point is this is what this is the usual what happens some sort of uh over bearing characteristic of the valve stem kind of belief out into the bowels of uh of uh ethics and changes those valves accordingly so that'll be the same subjects on two different route but due to the characteristics of those roots <unk> will be pronounced differently if i'm going to <unk> okay so so that's that's a good thing and uh the the example you gave is uh a hike harmony right ah yes the the valve becomes plus high because er plus high brow um <unk> um [noise] where was i going oh um now that's something you just mentioned makes me think that i may be doing something wrong 'cause i always thought that like you just apply val harmony either progressively <unk> aggressively from wherever is usually just <unk> ended up getting vowel harmony then that is usually the case with vowels harmony specifically um you'll see other types of features spreading that does go um you know from the ethics to step in particular ah secondary articulation like <unk> and <unk> uh you could do a thing where it's like you know there's the perfectly non nasal word and a language but it takes a lot of <unk> that's a <unk> life sucks rather nice lifestyle and that nasal invasion will spread backwards uh usually in those types of languages like especially with nasal <unk> it'll spread backwards it'll spread forwards it'll spread every which way it possibly can unless it's blocked by something like um in the language i'm thinking of it was always blocks by uh global confidence <unk> though and an eight shore glove stopped or or a lot of lies constant if there was one where the block or spread apart me uh but yeah so with with our money though um if it's quality harmony mennonite that's that's actually a bad with it if it's something like rounding harmony or <unk> or hide harmony it is usually from stem to ethics okay you also see that with a t._r. harmony but you do see the opposite and this is where i'm disappointed that i wasn't able to find some of my resources but i know for a fact that this happens in label which is a language that study by uh jeff good who's now at u. penn or at least he wasn't u._p._n. you might be somewhere else now but <unk> you will have like you know either plus they t._r. words are <unk> are words um and they will spread out words to certain types of ethics as but certain other types of <unk> will be designated as like you know <unk> h. e. r. and they'll actually spread to to step mhm um in that case it kind of looks it acts in a way a lot more like home ah which you you also see a lot where tone um at least for the level tone languages where uh the uh an underlying tone of uh ethics falafel spread <unk> either that or you have some sort of underlying uh uh <unk> uh tonics pattern that needs to be met in which case it all kind of spread across the whole war so it's still fits the topic ah wow okay well now that we're getting into <unk> kind of stuff and we have any like <unk> started yeah so um let's go back in a state again what what kinds of things can get vowel harmony 'cause i think uh people might get a little bit lost so we listed out already we mentioned grounding <unk> uh height and uh a p._r. that's advance tongue route which um uh some people might not be familiar with that term uh it's sort of but not exactly um sort of but not exactly uh uh the same as temps versus lax it's so the difference between e. which would be a plus a p._r. and then he which would be minus like beat in bed yeah be in bed yes um uh so that gives you some sort of an i._d. our idea of of what we're talking about between uh in eh if i even pronounce it correctly [laughter] um so and uh there's also some sometimes ah ah secondary articulation is like fringe realization or niece was very <unk> and um often it seems there there's a uh like some bouncer neutral but don't participate in the bell harmony um like uh what finish well huh yeah well well here let me let me uh let me uh <unk> i gotta give this ski medically for people that might be a little more uh like that might have this in their head and then let's just just jump into the examples that we've got 'cause those are good okay so ah for those that are familiar with distinctive features yes every single vowel has the features sideways so for example the ooh val yeah along if you're ooh it has these features associated with it it's plus high it's plus round it's uh plus back yeah edited plus a t._r. now uh you can define all the veils and assistant using these uh features some valve will have one of these features kind of blink and they will need to get that feature from another vow and that's basically what bell harmonious spreading one teacher to the other so for example uh if you you could have like say something that was um a high val uh that was coming in an ethics are suffix let's say and if it was coming after it <unk> it would take it's let's say round <unk> you're from that and so it would come out as ooh whereas if it was like a following an invalid buy tickets on line this rap each from that and come out if uh plus hi minus round plus they t._r. plus back though there you go now um looks like uh somebody's posted a link to a distinct feature chart which that'll be good yeah that'll be that'll be useful for people to figure out um now um i think one thing that uh we're going to get into a bunch of example language is one thing i want to know is all of our examples uh that we have here have not huge but also um fairly healthy vow inventories and i think that's kind of an important thing you want um probably uh all of these have more than five miles and which um is you know a little bit a little bit more than average um [noise] i i think <unk> i think <unk> personally the smallest balanced been tori i know that has like bell harmony across the language is six valve mhm that sounds uh that sounds reasonable and one reason that you would end up with it is you end up with a lot of ah secondary cardinals um obviously with turkish you end up with the easy route and the the uh about both um you know position with <unk> so uh you you that in order to support those you end up having a fairly large ah harmony system which is interesting to me because at least at this moment i'm trying to develop a three val <unk> laying into a vowel harmony system which is going to be interesting [laughter] sounds like it can be done yeah i i i just have to find ways to expand voucher system which i am i'm already figuring out ways to do that so but um you know why don't we actually jump into our examples um and and just give them sort of these as um uh sort of case studies in harmony the first one we have up here is turkish which is sort of the default example but ah linguistics classes will will peach bowl harmony using um it's got what's it one two three four five six eight vowels uh with back and rounding harm me but the rounding harming only affects high valves which was an interesting uh fit um which is how you end up with you and uh i guess um yeah so now uh david maybe maybe you can get away 'cause i'm not exactly <unk> um uh i'm not exactly sure if i'm going to be pronouncing peace uh we're right oh yeah yeah so so here's just an example of one suffix this suffix has a hides out in it mhm all all these are going to have a high though but the hype outlook changes <unk> depending on the previous val um but it's all gonna be a high bell followed by and and this is basically the <unk> works a little dirt differently and turkish because ah disasters proceed the things that they ah possess but yeah um so the c. has kind of uh listen for the last part in the <unk> of course the singular uh dominant <unk> singular jetted at first one to work <unk> which is <unk> that's a good word for real [laughter] of the <unk> <unk> <unk> and we have to work for a girl is <unk> and the <unk> of the girl <unk> oh yeah <unk> [laughter] the <unk> the word for child is um <unk> at a word for the child is <unk> um and then last we have um three which is village and then uh the village with being <unk> that's why i had david perhaps those because but that confuses me that uh the the <unk> in turkish is represented with a <unk> hi [laughter] basically [laughter] yeah i think it's i think it's kind of interesting like i to me it seems like the obvious choice should have been in i within <unk> [noise] i wouldn't have any um because it's like you have you have ooh and then the funny you have to <unk> over it then you have any and then the funny you should have two dots over it makes sense to me that's sounds that sounds reasonable to me but ah so anyway um oh yeah oh the <unk> or a little bit easier must do though because the <unk> just l val are <unk> are loud depending on whether the the previous val it's uh <unk> this is the same set of words but now it's now i'm unemployed also ropes <unk> girls <unk> children georgia plot and villages <unk> oh okay um so that's basically the <unk> it's it's it's the it's the terminating plus minus back um right uh i think uh we talked about the snake features here uh we distinctive features is a framework but i think it's very valuable what you're trying to figure out the specific type of language <unk> language and you might if you're since you're working with the sticks in features you might want to kind of draw out uh a food <unk> of your <unk> you have you have to get an idea of what features will be useful in opposition usually you're gonna have books front and back back vowels usually you're going to have high and low vowels but um [noise] you know <unk> <unk> you ah you just want to see what <unk> are weapon and uh see what features you can you can ah <unk> um <unk> yeah i know since we brought it up uh hold onto your thing uh 'cause it's gonna be good but um the uh with the <unk> the outset framework um it's very very useful for phonology um and if you're wondering well it's like well what's what's what's the downfall of this could distinctive <unk> worked so well it's terrible and getting you to figure out how things are actually print outs yeah they swear you know no matter how many times you see the phonetic description when you actually hear it it's like two that's nowhere close to what i thought it was you know just going by the features that's like uh yeah what can we do yeah there's enough for you this is why i have so much trouble with the the v._i._p. a vow but is that is represent as backward see i'm always when i think of of it i want to say oh well but in english it's not as i lost won't take it it's all it's not nearly as heavily rounded as i want it to be so i always miss your it yeah not only that none of our valves or ask valley as they as they could be another language is there i'm sure they're just pulled towards the <unk> yeah that definitely uh uh english the are we don't have an <unk> we have uh we don't have something sort of centralized with this ooh ooh ooh which is not anything like it yeah mhm yeah i was gonna say if you're a <unk> say sure ah who <unk> when you said you you say you know you you were out here too through different sounding uh yeah it's it it would it would end up sounding effort on what like uh uh uh foreigners speak english but anyway that's uh a little change it but yeah i mean it is it is it i think it is uh important to think about that because i think sometimes i think sometimes uh and i'm probably guilty of this as well as common language just kind of say what bells and a half and sometimes that's not enough because sometimes different languages just have little weeks to vowels uh that that are slightly different yeah except for spanish <unk> yeah [laughter] well because spanish has but nice clean five <unk> system but yeah it's crazy it seems fake honestly [laughter] and just needs to get attacked together it looks like a fake coddling uh anyway so um [noise] here's a question journalist <unk> it's a <unk> what drives the you know well dictates are important as the rest of the <unk> other all the stems agreeing knows what will you have a <unk> there's one high one the one side of the most <unk> most austere in one of those so uh so in the case of turkish turkish just exclusively succeed language doesn't have any <unk> um and usually it is gonna be the ballots closest that's gonna be the one that drives the harmony so um <unk> and you do and the question is about disarmament groups that yes you do get disarm out of groups in turkish most of them are borrowing um and so like uh one uh really uh obvious one is uh the word for book in turkish which is uh keep that it comes from arabic of course and if it were properly uh harmonica root it should either be keep that or <unk> or you know it's it's <unk> ah the <unk> that said what it does it get back though harmony because the most recent valid ah but since you brought it up and this is really important when uh i think a lotta times when ah when <unk> get into val harmony um and this is true of me when i first started the um the overriding urge is to make it work absolutely perfectly but uh in fact as it is basically an every <unk> army language deliver a cat or they're always exam or exemptions they're always counter example they're always things that just don't quite fit and this includes turkish who ah i think of all the languages i've ever seen has the simplest thing clearest val harmony system uh even so there are these really bizarre thing so for example uh you know michael just asked about you know it's the most recent that triggers the harmony and yet the answer is yes but <unk> <unk> thing in the world turkish also has confidence that drive harmony uh-huh and it's just like watch but it's true ah so um they're they have an example these are all from borrowing usually so uh you know there are obviously a ton of arabic borrowing into turkish and um one of these uh in in and uh basically every language that to borrow from arabic most of them don't have the <unk> hello <unk> with a q. and so they all have to deal with the fact that arabic has its cue that their body from in one way or another with turkish does is it render k. and cute exactly the same they're both <unk> uh but oddly enough is it borrow it from a work day ended with an arabic k. wherever the bells are it takes front bell harmony <unk> borrowed a word that ended in a turkish cue whatever the <unk> it takes <unk> uh an arabic cute huh and arabic cute yeah even though they're both <unk> k. and turkish ah and even the whole day in and they both at the same and look the same it's just at this point you know you'd have to say it's not fanatic it's purely morphological if something you have to memorize it's like oh this is one of those words that ends with a k. that triggers fried fell harmony and this is one that triggers back all harmony that's uh that is really weird like i can actually see where this could come from right so you could i think um you know the that you've <unk> stop paul paul does tend to pull vowels <unk> <unk> lower into the back yeah so um you could think maybe at some point historically there were a lot of people who are bilingual and turkish arabic and were pronouncing that oh correctly <unk> cause them to pull vows back this is all hypothetical which which would cost that but that's the only way i could think of that uh that um that happening but it's it's uh interesting to see somehow phonetics uh the the phonology of another language you're boring from affecting your own language that's interesting yeah yeah it is speculation and i'm sure that the specific details of it are probably muddy er but that's i that's probably the answer though yeah <unk> that's that's an active um that's an active feature <unk> modern standard arabic uh that's something that you just have to learn usually they don't even teach it to you 'cause you just listen and you repeat but basically like uh there are a certain number of confidence in arabic which are considered like back confidence i forget what the arabic term for it is but um like in particular with the foul <unk> which is the low <unk> it's so noticeable because <unk> <unk> after all these other confidence that aren't <unk> it sounds like our english at an apple so like you know say yeah ah ah ah it's like calf which is the the name for the um a letter k. and arabic and it sounds so different when it comes after the <unk> um most of the the we're off or the letter q is um off yeah past it oh yeah that's just the way it is and uh it's funny that that uh you're thinking we're thinking this way because this is actually uh one one thing that i'm planning on ah on using too uh increase my vowel inventory for for the language that i mentioned earlier is it has a call and it will <unk> will have a fringe show oh ha ha ha ha um and those will pull <unk> i think uh i'm going to make them like pull high bells down i'm not sure if that is um more likely <unk> more or less likely than pulling them back i'll have to think about it but um uh no pulling them down <unk> more likely <unk> yeah so uh it would pull <unk> town and then i would have uh the fringe will turn into a plane h. which would render that some <unk> or i could leave the fringe will in and make vowel harmony make it <unk> <unk> um mhm uh yeah my <unk> no i was just going to say that um when was that all ties in is that you know we didn't really mentioned about um about how many of the long distance and listen you know the more all these uh you know confident example that we've been getting an arabic on the line as you're talking about our assimilation there ah it's not right now how many so to speak um like the cops versus cats um right now they're in the nation but uh yeah simulation i think that's totally buffalo on that um this this thing to see just tired of the shows also some other features that may have relations between dolls and confidence yeah oh you know that's something we actually should've mentioned in the beginning growl harmony itself is basically a sub branched or it's like you know a a assimilation so it's you know it's it's just it's a version it's a type of a simulation um just to you know specific type uh pervasive in certain languages so anyway um but yeah it just uh so um <unk> if you <unk> it looks like we're going to have some links to uh various turkish ah sites that you can go look at [noise] there are some other confidence that play a role ah in del harming determining whether things get back val a success or friend fell success though and it's really interesting to look at because a lot of times it has to do with a loan words uh which is i think kind of a bizarre to think that you know a word that's being borrowed into your language could have such a powerful effect on it that it like changes the usual order of uh the way that you do phonology it's pretty cool yeah it's uh it's an interesting thing to to think that um that loan words can have that strong of an effect you don't you think of lone words being fun a logical modified right to <unk> to your own system right but um you don't think about we don't think about uh the effect of bloom words on the uh the target um language but borrowing language so uh i think that's maybe something that uh that <unk> inspires from come on you're do some more interesting things ah out of this um could be that it's kind of like i think with the girl she do does your language it's kind of growing and <unk> and you know um acquiring those alone words and it's using the facets of what has already there and kind of grown into the mix and crannies of the appeal of the simulated word so it's really interesting thing <unk> well how come my language use what it has and kind of co-op what's their how could it in your face in a new and interesting way with this word that maybe hadn't seen before yeah yeah for yeah well we english does uh borrow a number of marketing promote language poor marking from other languages yeah times in bizarre ways <unk> we borrowed the that the latin e. ending and then use it on uh <unk> roots that never had it [laughter] yeah [laughter] <unk> yeah check thai yeah most in most side money who says <unk> most people where are you from i think it's usually move for me [laughter] you never you never seen that show uh <unk> for the <unk> guy [laughter] okay [laughter] uh i'm living on uh why don't we talk about um this uh <unk> uh sort of our second little case study oh insisted one it's got six miles again um yeah it it has uh height harmony but it looks like um unlike turkish it's um it's uh <unk> <unk> has <unk> and the vowel harmony is regrets if ah yeah it's it's from the <unk> outward and um it it also has success so this is the language would prefix us and south texas ah so it can it can affect bush sucks too okay ah yeah but sometimes it doesn't uh in fact here on a second uh talk amongst yourselves while i knew <unk> [laughter] <unk> yeah well i don't know [noise] um yeah but i was thinking about um i notice mainly of al <unk> uh you know episode of <unk> but um [noise] other other simulations i think really can help is uh a death to your words and kind of make them hang together a little more yeah i was thinking of doing um something like in a simulation i guess not <unk> there's too many of them but something was like we are talking about earlier the confidence maybe um making unjustified vowels for a one way or the other off that <unk> <unk> and uh i think i could really give you so it sounds a little bit less like <unk> beans on a string yeah they're always doing the same the same uh syllable likeable awful awful gives you a little more you know <unk> um variation on the surface when in reality it's just different <unk> of that same underlying um you know morphine <unk> yeah i'm <unk> uh i uh the language was i mentioned that i'm going to make val harmony i was thinking of also doing sort of a limited constant harmony too but uh uh i got to see i got to uh experiment with that and see how it sounds <unk> that's what i want to do but you know ever since that they didn't mention them washington i found myself wanting to use that one more and more <unk> [laughter] ah <unk> which part of why we're morphine [noise] it's it's not worth it's not a thing it's nothing [laughter] <unk> <unk> this this is relevant to our discussion <unk> before we go back tomorrow one real quick thing so um it's relevant to vowel harmony because uh the the the way you rent the rules for this one called that so how do you account for david rule uh found a logical rules that have morphine boundaries you just say that's the root boundary or what but i don't understand what you mean working boundary like yeah well it's it's one of them don't exist and what do you how to use split that which would be added to the root when there's still ruth they're still roots an ethics aren't there mm uh ethics boundary so you do is that you just make that that's what the plus sign means now if if you use plus science i always hated that are stationed in never made sense to me [laughter] yeah i just still only use tyson's and it's like it's but you know it's it's they're there and it's not as if the the idea of a morphine batteries necessarily very informative because it's not uh they're actually different types of boundaries um you know there's some types of morphology that it's there are certain ethics this that are more tightly bound to the roof and then other types of <unk> and then there will be fought a logical prophecy that will take place uh within these more tightly balance um <unk> and those that don't in which case then you're distinguishing between morphine boundaries you say like this isn't worth being boundary a._s. as a marketing battery be in that much just yeah stupid so might as well just say you know this is <unk> it has to be it's language specific you know <unk> at the same time you could define whatever boundary that you need for the language that you're working with ah anyway that's that's that's what i said all right well um anyway gone back to um <unk> so you have um [noise] uh david actually expanded his examples quite a bit so uh can you can use <unk> out your examples and explain a little bit what's going on sure right ah all stick with the uh examples that are harmonica and i'll i'll talk about the other one afterwards um so in morrow you have these six spouse and they're broken into high <unk> high low hairs <unk> though the highest dallas art <unk> uh-huh ooh and that middle <unk> pure swat uh-huh i'm in the <unk> the low <unk> a a whole um and so that it actually if you look at the chart um <unk> is going to be higher than it uh but we usually i'll think of it that way 'cause we think of <unk> kind of reduced oh nothing else but in this case uh their parents so is the <unk> and vice versa ah who's the <unk> old and then uh it's a <unk> ah yeah and and oh i wanna i wanna say right there that's one reason i <unk> i think people should draw a uh i um uh uh the actual matrix uh raspy guys were matrix is you will look at things and you will see a place like with the trial where you can <unk> feature and make it not it's standard value and still makes sense yeah or it's like where it's one of those things where it just makes sense given the system and why is like it patterns with these high vowels yeah it's just like er it's like for a language like english you know it doesn't make any sense at all but that's because you know it's a different valedictorian yeah this is this just like ah is is sometimes back but sometimes it's not uh right right just uh the <unk> there's a lot of funding you can do actually with the <unk> teachers in the house which is you know another reason why when you're looking at this new features that's something you have to uh be careful about about and not necessarily assumed that you want to take the <unk> teachers that are on whatever standard truck you're looking at right [noise] [noise] okay so back to moral <unk> is a nice record a friday and language um which is described i think in the same tradition that a lot of the ban two languages were used to her described and so it has uh now in classes that are reflected in the first uh confidence or lack there of of the route um and it has been very similar to other languages you looked at um so it's kind of difficult or i just think of this language is having case but i think um i i think that it really does have case or something you could call case either that or if you just want to call it well it's just that ethics that has a local value or whatever that's where it has so uh we have um two words here when it's going to be a high dollar we're more low belt where we have <unk> which is the man and <unk> that's neck alright and so there's a particular prefix or uh that uh i i call a case prefix that means inside of something it actually has two different cases that mean inside of something but there are two different types of inside it's pretty cool but um this <unk> is uh weights added to were against the valley which is why i chose these examples that has a k. in it and it begins with either a high e. or uh non high it so well gee man in the man is equal g. and then he had it down which is neck and in the neck is it get down um mhm then we have a third one and this is a really interesting it's a it's an instrumental case um but what it does is it takes the theme <unk> confidence of the class and add to it after the the stand and then add uh the central about whether it's higher low uh yeah i'm pretty sure that protects that the uh characteristic vow is why i say yeah but i'm not a hundred percent sure if this might not be correct i might be another concept but whatever it is it's going to be some sort of confident so for well gee we have well did you get with that and that's by the man that's where the <unk> and <unk> it down with it down there with and uh and that's kind of like with the neck or something um and so all of those are perfectly harmonica um then at the same time you have these other local cases ah which they're clearly cases the not hosts positions with the language also does have because nothing can come in between these two things uh and they form cohesive unit and that there's only one tense <unk> there's only one tenth syllable i'm sorry when stress syllable but um they are completely opaque to harmony so ah we have with the neck if you want to say on the neck or just like stuck to it it's <unk> uh and then for on the man you'd say would you know so it wouldn't be <unk> which is what you'd expect if this was going to completely obey the harmony it's just <unk> as a way it is so it's uh one of those bizarre cat are examples that just up there a couple of cases like this the other inside case which is actually exactly the same except without the end so would you i know and <unk> means inside and they uh and they both have that same on oil and that doesn't change <unk> okay <unk> that's an interesting thing so but i think one thing that i was missing actually was the the idea of <unk> and i think i'm going to have to ah rethink sometimes when i when i get down to uh uh working on my own language again but uh yeah um well now do people have any idea how this may have occurred maybe these these these cases um got fuse to the now after vowel harmony historical changes it had occurred or what i i assume so in some way or that there is not as much attachment between these uh subjects is is there is with the other one i mean even though they do form of phone logical unit they're not as clearly connected if like uh the <unk> like uh equal gee um and so uh but then you know they're at the same time they're more inherent or i guess more uh native then a lot of the post ads positions which they've actually borrowed like directly from arabic and other languages and say you can tell that they're not the same um but it's clear like they don't attach as well so you're kind of like if you think about um the nets are suffix in english how old are you an addict to anything sudden this stupid <unk> it's just yeah it just gets climbed onto whatever yeah uh-huh yeah and the same kind of thing happens with the <unk> so like uh for example you can't see this written but um what i have written here and this is actually comes into another thing a little tests or more i want to mention it's um it actually there's a <unk> in between the em in the end so that it down but now um and that's really just to find a logical artifact because um one of the other interesting things about moral is it has to six dollars system where <unk> full about but it also has a reduced schwab which sounds not not the same um so it's like sometimes there's just a show on there and it's just a <unk> uh [laughter] and it's completely non harmonica 'cause that's all it is um and so that's just a byproduct of yeah just yeah historical changing speaker kind of air and needed a show on certain places um and that's another thing that can ah complicates distance wire mention which is like historical found changes you can have a more or less christine val harmony system at some time in the past mm uh and maybe even have historical changed the produce this <unk> system for a time but then as you know <unk> language is going to change no matter what so there could be processes which um destroying away certain words are pronounce or <unk> come out ah which may in fact just destroy harmony um mhm in certain parts are in certain spots and produce disarm on it roots or ah just words where it's like oh you just have to memorize that uh they all have any doesn't apply for this word at us like why well the only answer if in the history mhm it is that way because it is that way and it was always seems to me [laughter] [noise] yeah that works yeah yeah it's uh it's it's an interesting but you can uh sort of play with is you know make your <unk> harmony system and then introduced some change the brakes yeah in certain situations so that it's not um at least if you're i mean for natural as soon as that it's not something perfectly regular uh because you know even <unk> perfectly regular illness which is which is interesting because everybody always says oh turkish <unk> regular [laughter] [laughter] yeah you wish just wait to hear somebody pronounce it and say regular [laughter] um so we've got a few more do we want to do all of our um little things here or um i'm i'm not that's on them yeah yeah i'm not sure uh i didn't finish is probably pretty easy one to do it's kind of it's like uh <unk> maybe just a couple of things uh then mongolian is really strange there you should all look at it uh especially when you throw in the way things are spelled with the romans asian which is just a mess i don't know who came up with that nightmare uh [laughter] but um it it's i i let's just rent finished really uh just er just for a second it's almost identical to turkish ah it's also an eight bell system it's just that instead of having that hype akron rounded val it has a low front on routed bell for this act as opposed to uh and that actually ended up crucial breaking the system and so what you get with uh finish is you just have back harmony you don't have rounded army at all [noise] um and basically what they teach you finished they say there's two different sets the valve there are french valve and there are back south but it's just so happens there to balance that go into ball systems ah or i actually it's their frantic <unk> regular bell <unk> for the regular valves are are you know a standard uh <unk> and and affronted valve r. s. s. e. e. ah oh and and then they say basically a word can only have valves from one group um what that means if you compare that to turkish you will see words that looked completely wrong if you're if you're thinking of turkish spell harmony system and then vice versa turkish is words will look completely wrong and finishes system um uh so let me let me see one that's uh exemplified this [noise] uh actually um we have a word that just by <unk> by the word for wind and finishes too i'm sorry no no aspiration i think <unk> mhm so it's got a a high back rounded bell and then uh hi <unk> ah this is something that would be considered disarm <unk> but it's perfectly fine and finish um and then what's interesting is that it gets uh uh a <unk> so like you're going to do with the part of new singular uh to to really becomes too uh with uh with uh back low about <unk> um in in turkish that should've been um oh you'd be expecting it oh <unk> that in mind now for its partner we have a word like salad at any uh <unk> it's kind of like our word any but with a longer and none of that uh raising that we get an art wins gets that same t. a. suffix it'd be kind of an attack but basically it gets a copy of the ballot already hat and so the distinction in the low balance between ah an act as opposed to like on <unk> and wouldn't know and oh and i don't even participate in fact <unk> <unk> it has its own little separate uh kind of blending zone as it were so i'm <unk> i'm kind of still confused by if there's back harmony than how is there and he <unk> oh yeah because it's neutral so this will happen uh so it's uh right so [noise] <unk> and you say is because um the the the it's almost like uh what happened in the history of finish is that these back rounded valve fronted some times in the present so that doesn't make any sense now wouldn't do that [laughter] now that i'm thinking you know i wouldn't do that at all um it's almost just like uh [noise] rather than having to say like your your back thousand here you're <unk> it's more like hear your regular <unk> ah the ones that you expect so the <unk> and here's some special fronted bell but it's just so happens that e. n. f. work with those valves as well mm so <unk> so the surprise ending actually isn't that you have <unk> ooh that's frightening is that you have any with but then that's explained by the fact that it doesn't break the rest of the <unk> rural and so these are kind of like um [noise] uh uh buying for dealer or pie by value bible <unk> there we go they they swing both ways hasn't worked [laughter] they can they can participate in a regular set and they could participate in the front <unk> um well at the same time passing on features of whatever came before it and so you'll see that's actually a lawyer finish words where you'll have a whole bunch of like like a <unk> question and bleed back valve followed by e followed by us suffix but it doesn't look too like uh it doesn't get any information from that eat um even though it could participate in like a front ah harmony system which it does another language is like turkish it doesn't and this one so it actually doesn't pass on any information it just passes through what ever was before it oh okay yeah so that's how you can get uh let me see if there are any longer words um oh here's the perfect one so uh west i have these two examples there's west and then further west so you have <unk> and so uh what happens is that in the middle of al <unk> is neutral and so it could very well make the next one um crunch or back but what it does it passes on the front teacher of the first about and then it keeps on just passing it to whatever is added to it oh so it's not this okay so this is actually a case where um art distinctive future kurt would actually not really ah leave you in the direction of making about harmony system like this i think because you you you kind of have a um want to say like is always like uh <unk> it's it's like it's not even like that but it it has like both features simultaneously yeah and it either future right and pass long either future but phonetically it stays the same yes but uh and i'll say this is a word and fish has entirely compose divider <unk> eh it will generally take front bal success <unk> okay i was trying to think of an example word of of uh finished but it's kind of uh the finish were always come up with her sauna solvable [laughter] ah by the way i want to say one thing yeah thing that um whenever i look at finish and and i think of trying to pronounce it always it's always hard to put the ad found in positions that finished has it in [laughter] oh yeah <unk> it's just 'cause i'm on the phone brains but anyway it really helps <unk> listen to finish a music <unk> in particular coward metal i'm going to give a <unk> the arctic uh and night wish uh <unk> and i'll go ahead and say strata various in in particular uh if you listen to them they're alive concerts and you hear them speaking in between it helps [laughter] secrets my secret man that's that's my finish secret uh okay anyway that's that's a good one i think turkey is i'm sorry i didn't finish is probably going to be one that's familiar to ah a lot of <unk> because uh uh talk in within a terrifically an average finish uh well i think it was and um and so ah as a result like a lot of <unk> look at look to finish anyway that's what's going on with this one yeah uh <unk> supposedly <unk> <unk> it doesn't have crazy foul harmony like this but it does and it just has a lot of double elves [laughter] um the little stumble al which i i know they're not they're the finished up well it's uh it's just that german <unk> um if not like the <unk> the <unk> um so let's go i had the last ah language we have actually um presented here as mongolian uh so you have <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> or or uh yeah <unk> long short very <unk> uh okay as long as the shortage variants so fourteen valves but the the lake doesn't play any part in the army so i left it out mm okay and the the the features you you can hear you have a clue both quote unquote <unk> so you have the eight t._r. participate and rounding is also an agreement future um so why don't you why don't you uh leave this through these these uh examples you have okay or yeah yeah okay this is this is a mess it's really difficult uh so what happens is this is the seven bell system but it's actually a t._r. harmony and set the seven bell system with one neutral bell and that neutral dallas e. [laughter] so yeah so the thing is like um it's <unk> are <unk> <unk> and oh which is a really bizarre combination of health um and then it's my <unk> and it's minus h._r. balance or or all and uh so like you so you have this word like you know um or or [noise] which is household i guess and then all of a whole is by a household and then all of a household would be all <unk> they all they have these ah the pure oh and who whereas if you have another word that has like the the night s._a._t. are ones so actually er yeah okay so they have <unk> oh my god [noise] you know i've got a friend of mine who's doing is that the peace corps he's in mongolia right now he's a con lying or um i can't wait for him to come back because i want to hear that these things have pronounced uh this <unk> this word apparently anthony voiced um lateral <unk> how <unk> how <unk> yeah yeah that's that's yeah so it was really wrong and then <unk> yeah <unk> by a century [laughter] it was it was or for the other one and ask for this one and then um i uh and then i if you average edited that the gender to before was pure <unk> at this time it was ruined it it's kind of that one that um might have say it's your version uh but um so the the funny thing is this is the the reason i will start bringing it set up an interesting first of all uh he is neutral so it's just a harmony passes through it however um there is a separate rounding harmony that applies only to low vowels so we have this um this instrumental suffix <unk> odd or or with uh with my s._a._t. arwen or air [laughter] depending on what it is uh um uh i just [noise] oh yeah okay so this and so this is it it it really binge your mind after you've been looking at so many things that are back in front or just normal eighty are uh systems i consider normal eighty or assistance bitty african into your system so uh working with or uh or whore is by a household so it's just a pure oh in both of them now then i added ice created this word or soon household because uh it would get the <unk> because it has an oh in it um i went to i went to read to you i found this on a website it has this suffix which comes out it's either <unk> soon or <unk> depending on you know whether it's attitude plus or minus h._r. word and says for the function of this suffix to form now which hardly differ from their original meaning [laughter] <unk> [laughter] that is the definition of this suffix [laughter] and so i figure it's or it's household and or soon is helpful whatever olive bay this website by the way the two examples they give airs <unk> which is <unk> pretty soon which just naval [noise] okay well there's been other word on running some invented data but anyway uh entered okay but then <unk> this is the other example they get <unk> that's a white <unk> soon ups paper [noise] [laughter] [noise] makes sense [laughter] just like uh uh it means whatever you want it to me it means and right now i wanted to just mean exactly the same thing is what it meant okay so then we have <unk> which means household and then if you add the um instrumental sucks that it becomes <unk> by a household and the reason that it's <unk> and not ours is because the previous <unk> ooh which is plus h. e. r. and so you have to add a plus say t._r._l. which is the only other plus eighty our ballots oh and you usually get that one because uh previous oh we'll round any low vow that's later on in the work in <unk> class there was a high rounded val after it somewhere in the work and it breaks the rounding harmony yeah okay so so uh we're we're we can talk about um two things that two kinds of sort of special vowels then that can affect you can either have a neutral bell but passes on whatever <unk> it's it's like a carrier the future passes through but doesn't the kid expression on it right or you can have these cases where you have a rule where uh particular vow locks the previous mile from affecting anything else yeah and this one doesn't even make any sense because they're both plus around yeah there it's a rounded valve it's breaking rounding harmony [laughter] so so there has to be some historical electrical their houses but there has to be this uh this is it is really weird yeah i i have no idea though my goal innocence fascinating language by the way uh i i really recommend you give it a look if you can find resources on it because like it it's great because this language they will they will tell you if you're just looking at words they say this house pronounce now this is how is pronounce in that time gangs caught they say that everywhere you just learn and this is of course the way it wasn't that type of gang scott [laughter] ah wonderful beside you you you mentioned that the uh but he is is completely neutral and you have examples will be accused of which is has <unk> or he man that's hard you have a a user followed by uh <unk> or he or she <unk> she <unk> sounds like <unk> on something [laughter] by the way if you want to rename this pod cast your word [laughter] <unk> hello and welcome to [laughter] [noise] somebody who speaks like non goalie a native lays listening to this and laughing at us if i <unk> even a little bit of joy [laughter] die happy man [laughter] it sounds like a sneeze in a in a in a yawn or cough i'm not sure if we are even getting the the second foul right it's just it's it's difficult to get that the that book value in that position oh yeah now that's the funny thing we're having to spend so much time trying to get these confidence right that you know forget the valve valve harmony [laughter] [laughter] so ah so um and you list too of your own con lines that uh we've mentioned before on the um what was episode seventy was the the <unk> uh uh pitfalls was framed works mhm i don't know if we really need to uh go into those again but uh i i didn't want to go into them i <unk> mentioned like if you want to see uh a good example of about harming language i think my language <unk> at least if you look at the the <unk> i think it's done well <unk> um even though it has some bizarre contrast in the lower <unk> usually it's actually a place where each year contract's break down <unk> uh that's kind of where these neutral vows will come from there used to be a distinction it's not any more because it's so hard <unk> and then if you want to see a bad one you know like a treat like we talked about <unk> i uh no offense favorite but hey horrific for example is you there with the [laughter] fourteen under specified vowels that's it's it's it's linguistics fault but they won't tell ya right jerks uh google uh laws about how many <unk> and i found actually uh <unk> um it says that that was a <unk> number five and that has all harmony what was it was it by [noise] um it's uh let me see it looks like it's my desmond what am i oh we've uh features that one uh i don't know i'm uh <unk> yeah if you go to that's the uh uh <unk> <unk> yeah so that's the topic the thread where he says it was featured on there and then he was the age [noise] this <unk> i just went to the verbs one than uh <unk> uh control <unk> searched for harmony and them raises the bounty section whether the strong valley harmony uh uh they talked about it i don't know i'm not sure how to read them i just <unk> i'm trying to learn on it's not loaded mm yeah help and um i think it's because you guys are are going nuts on sky but it gets like taking way more network resources in that shit yeah that's weird no i just i heard it from you too so yeah i love it says that this other one uh <unk> is uh and plus all harming based on front and that's that's one of the common with ya i mm i don't know also some on the show not so you can see them but anyway i i hope this is there's been a uh an instructor of episode and um i think uh by showing you these different uh languages uh we can we can uh uh actually um talking about these different natural language is high power harmony we can we've given you an idea of ways you can construct your own uh vowel harmony system just by you know choosing which features you want to alternate or even going crazy finished land where things don't make sense um [laughter] that's the reason we're the wisdom or the quilt for this crazy finish <unk> things don't make sense [laughter] but uh but uh i i i hope that uh will um will help congress to ah make their own sort of mount harmony systems if they're inclined to do that and their next language i'm it's like i said it's something that i'm thinking about and this episode just doing it uh and talking to david about it who knows more about my uh i do has given me a few ideas about things that i can uh mess with so i am going to mess with that in the future so i think we can move on to feedback new final fox or anything yeah and i don't know that's that that's fine i'm sorry i'm actually looking at this <unk> got going okay all right so uh somebody uh <unk> greek better than me 'cause there's a a routine but anyway i mean the readings friends let's let's say let's see a lot of faded they will kind of daily should not be <unk> okay okay yeah this one i knew that that's what it looks like me credit there were feeling well unless that's pronounce the modern <unk> in which case it's just yeah <unk> ah <unk> i don't know you tell us yeah i don't know but uh anyway i said over at the con language group on even art we're hosting a this little thing called <unk> basically participants have until he said until day which <unk> <unk> it until november thirty first right up to two hundred were passage in one of the <unk> it's not a translation <unk> rather a bona fide composition challenge i thought some of the <unk> would be interested in participating ah it's never too late to sign up and anybody who wants to do so uh two can do so uh <unk> uh <unk> you being an art dot com oh i'll have the this uh <unk> email on the show notes and you can you can click the thing um that's great um sort of i guess it's a con lingers um answer too um <unk> the national <unk> a month but it's just two hundred words it's not fifty thousand words so [laughter] which which it makes sense for it to be a little bit less for online which is may have to start like pointing words and uh making new grammar and stuff mm mm yeah um i don't know if i'll be necessarily participating in this <unk> going to have running yeah i was thinking of actually persistent painting and <unk> national novel reading months if i actually read a book in a mutt caught it takes so long already [noise] ah yeah [noise] i'm a terrible reader too slow [noise] you know and ah i'm the same way uh longer books <unk> take forever to to to read unless i get really really interested in so uh anyway so that show i guess oh out uh missouri on them and [laughter] that's so i guess [laughter] okay well well well maybe we could pick things up a little bit mike what are your final words <unk> um what was it was it was the same <unk> always um you know try to do things um if you've never heard of it before that's fine i'm <unk> i'm always say that but um with all harmony you know try if you wanted um vowel harmony throughout the whole word throughout just from the most recent um down there or you wanna try confident assimilation or i mean <unk> crazy things go go nuts because it's your own creation and if you go forth of confidence then you could call everybody else the wrong if you have no idea what you're doing because you're the maker so you can make those calls as you see fit and if it's different just say it doesn't solve the rule but starting infiltrate break [noise] yeah that's another thing that i'm going to uh i i want to do an episode on but that i'll save that discussion for later so and so david what do you have uh mainly i just want her to ask if anybody have any uh language where they've put in place of el harmony system uh put it in the comments because um i couldn't think of any off the top of my head uh but of course they're going to be hundreds because basically anytime one of these topics comes up in one of the various coddling informed uh uh usually they're like a ton of projects that are star and write that not all carry through but that a lot of 'em are so yeah i wanted to see if if if there were any others um because i think <unk> ah [noise] and i like to see lots of the [noise] the movie before we close up i tried one about how many but i dumped the trap of where i'm like oh well from back then all the words in the world all about him on the front or or by [noise] and i i i did um i i did the same thing uh with a bell harmony system i tried [noise] back with uh becky um which [noise] i ended up having a rounding harmony only rounding harming [noise] kind of ended up kind of boring and also ended up with weird um i don't know very strange there anymore which is not always but but uh yeah you're not afraid trying to [noise] so with all that said i'm going to say happy combine thank you for listening to con lingering you could find our our car insurance <unk> dot com you can send questions comments more topic or featured language suggestions conway angry i. g. e. mail dot com to submit a con langhorn outlying breeding for the top of the show see our contribute paid for details <unk> provided by the language creation society and our seen music is by no the vice [noise] [noise] okay i hear you now <unk> <unk> <unk> um okay <unk> <unk> what are you doing at beard david hi kim tell the difference between actual sky problems and you pretending they're scraper hey george lesson i agreed to interview you and i <unk> [laughter] i love all the way unfortunately i didn't get to do yeah i it's the it's the holiday that i i dread every single year and i just can't wait till it's gone why do not like children <unk> well no but um that actually has nothing to do with it uh i all your son just for kids no that's part of the problem um if it weren't just for kids i wouldn't have to deal with it anymore a tiny little tip passes just got run back ninety eight yard for a touchdown oh can you believe it that's michael vick i'm starting right there i just did that i mean it's not his fault it's the receivers fall flat no oh god i've been there leaves me roughing to pass or something or life in the exact same thing and even that [noise] that into somebody doing it imitation of meat typing okay do you guys hear that [noise] yeah it's a it's a siren police are yeah <unk> yeah you know your state song you know yeah yeah yeah every every morning you wake up and sing the state's song and you place to stay flag closest thing the closest thing we have to a state songs country road which which doesn't um which doesn't mentioned cole and it wasn't and also mentioned some places that are not actually in west virginia i wrote a never been to west virginia that's true but every west virginia knows that so maybe that's why i have to say david is kind of cute [laughter] coming from the straight guy that's what i'm saying [laughter] you must government kind of like someone who doesn't know whine at all saying this one is really good yeah yeah you know what you just go straight i put the queer guy there that the er you know the algae b. t. q. community should really be in favor of basketball it's got the word basket right in it okay go <unk> no that's it i mean it's like bachelor like basket weaving like i don't know if that would be more for the hell's the jeeze are the cutest just confused the longer oh my god weight that's a that's a that's a building yeah [laughter] those are little windows oh my god you're <unk> [laughter] no but it's like to think <unk> you have a little read it you can walk i walk out [laughter] [laughter] i really listen i notice that related anything but i beg you please put this week the p._t._a. paid just take the lincoln put it in the show now it's <unk> it's amazing or in the <unk> that's a really i was like a train that goes to orange or any one of these days i'm going to you know just totally just blow the joke and tell you the entire time i've actually been like a thirteen year old girl from like rancho <unk> that's the joke now i was thinking of installing a dog barking the shame um this would be to simulate dog barking nor i so that when the actual dark park outside in the middle of the night it doesn't wake me up i didn't get his tank to stop this show i think so

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  1. Conlangery Podcast
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Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 74 Vowel Harmony (last edited 2017-09-08 15:48:51 by TranscriBot)