Conlangery #76: Definiteness

Conlangery #76: Definiteness

Published: Mon, 03 Dec 2012 05:27:21 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 <unk> but <unk> landed up the cinema <unk> [noise] [noise] <unk> about distracted languages [noise] people who aren't really uh would be over here in maine right now is my <unk> and ah returning to the show we have [noise] down [noise] wells down university of new away then up up another road and we'd have as sports goes by prophecy about those kentucky so little it's a little complicated ah describing the way to your house or my house but i'm not going to go into too much detail because it might be a bad idea yeah no yeah [laughter] words it was no if i've ever heard of them yeah [laughter] yeah ah so how how was your um your break from <unk> well yeah it was good i played benjamin i grew a beard yes i i <unk> i in my house you know many <unk> uh uh i was going to uh mentioned with the beard you look <unk> less like god versus the spider so thank you that's good to know [laughter] [noise] to know that my my adrenal glands are intact and are able to produce facial hair [noise] right [noise] and uh i hope you guys had good thanksgiving oh yeah yeah <unk> that's good mhm oh right and i hope listeners who are in the u. s. had good thanksgiving [noise] um so why don't we just kind of jump right into our topic today uh we have a big topic here but it's some it's this is a topic that i think a lot of congress kind of uh ignore mainly because a lot of <unk> hate article mhm and kind of the sort of superficial note of that is uh the the the superficial way of marking that having articles so we're um [noise] going to match what our topic is of course is definite [noise] and uh of course uh [noise] my kids [laughter] coming here on the <unk> right now that you don't need to avoid definite miss when you're in you're avoiding art article anyway but um this uh this is this is just something that's tied into it but uh so [noise] william you came up with this topic and you <unk> what exactly definitely um i actually think hey matt came up or or one of our listeners suggested [noise] the topic um <unk> definite um like <unk> especially i'm guessing english speaking <unk> i tend to <unk> for a long time to avoid definite marking because i had no idea what it meant um i started coming in a teenager and there was no one to tell me the word sometimes did not have the nutritional meeting that they did not sometimes refer to things in the world so if if your theory of language little naive and you think oh words most reproduce things in the world or concepts about the world than trying to figure out what on earth the means to me quite confusing yeah [laughter] um but definite and for english for that we normally need the definite article means that it's a signal cheer listener that you expect them to know what you're talking yeah mhm that means that means the desert articles signals known information yeah yeah and um uh important point there is that it can be one of two things that can be something that's known because it was previously introduced into discourse or it can be something that pragmatically known either like um you are in a room that has a door and you talk about the door or or just it's something that's in the general like <unk> <unk> uh like catch some of the culture that you would expect people to know who the president or what things like the internet um my favorite example is descent and i went to see a movie the other line was long yeah i'm not talked about mine before but that simply part of the movie growing experience a lot of the time so it recover bowl orange <unk> sometimes it said um from the topic um in things can actually be physically president as well right if you walk into a coffee shop would use to your friend and you're going to talk to them and they put down to book can you talk about turkey and thanksgiving and then you finally ask them how is the book that you're talking about that physical [noise] object that was just sit on the table right there <unk> in some way um mhm now according to know that we're talking so far about how english and i'm guessing that's your in languages <unk> there are some languages where the definite article or however definitely this is mark is only use for things that have been introduced into the scores did it and not be used on it for a mobile were released ugly present things they have to be introduced him to the to the conversation okay so that's that's an interesting thing is there ever like a case where you have like i um like screen distinctions uh things that are in the discourse versus things that are ah <unk> versus things that are unknown or is it [noise] um [noise] honestly i don't know all the possibilities in my reading uh interesting things about language is across the years i've seen all sorts of funky variations on this sort of thing um i think it squeamish article indicate that something is definite uh known to the speaker [laughter] mhm mhm which is <unk> <unk> medically weird to me [laughter] i'm <unk> i know what i'm talking about what i use the word is a little bit funny um so it wouldn't surprise me if there are more subtle distinctions being made it there's a question of how much you need um to code that when or if you want to talk about lots of languages have know overt definite and it's marking but still uh how should i say they don't have an article or a morphine but they still have ways to mark <unk> men [noise] um so it's not like you are at some terrible desperate laws you don't make all these distinctions we have and they were doing it yeah and i mean one thing is that we're talking about even if you have a language that only allow the definite um or something that's been specifically introduced um in the discourse it's probably pretty trivial too just introduce things and just say oh instead of saying the lake you can say oh you know that like over there and then there by you introduce it and then you can refer back but you're right i mean that's how you make something definite in discourse you just introduced into the conversation but definitely uh-huh mm ah very simple procedure no doctors are require no licensing sit there [laughter] um let's talk a little bit about how you how <unk> how how to end coated obviously we've mentioned you can have just a definite article which um english that's uh uh a a <unk> a separate we're uh that is you know in front of the night and it might be in decline double or decline if <unk> if you have a language that has case marketing uh-huh yes that's surprisingly u._c. <unk> which i which surprised me that you have highly selecting languages sometimes that happens [noise] inflicted articles uh-huh but on the other side you have like this isn't it true like in german case marking only a curse on the article but uh [noise] uh no they're kids working system as heavily reduced okay here to save critter dramatic but no they still have um kids working um [noise] they also very <unk> and several of the germanic and slavic languages [noise] have so if you have a noun phrase within out in an empty too mhm you're adjectives agreement is different if saddam is definite er indefinite oh wow really just did a great nuisance for those of us who tried to their german <unk> separate the clincher those systems for education wow <unk> which is fixing um but you don't meet just an article uh can <unk> it can be an ethics [noise] i'm sure like if a hebrew has um <unk> which uh induces various time changes and phone constants depending what they are there's <unk> other sorts of fun um mm arabic out which then they'll sorts of fun assimilation thing <unk> oh like al <unk> but um [noise] i don't know man yeah <unk> definitely that's almost a secondary thing it seems like [noise] i guess this is probably true of a lot of different function work but it seems like articles tend to have this odd relationship this odd sort of tendency to get reduced or have special fun logical rules in english you have the indefinite article shouldn't have and and on the end of it or not depending on whether folic word and begins with a constant er about [noise] right right um but that that's almost a uh a whole different <unk> entirely um you can have an ethics that disappears entirely <unk> um and leaves only trade i found one <unk> language that had suggested article that presented itself only in a tone changing the now <unk> that at the end of the word that is quite uh a mate that are more of a definite articles are kind of lay by oh they're subject to all sorts of indignities and they disappear and get recreated fairly quickly mhm in the grand scheme of things [noise] um right um so ethics you could have know overt morphine met all good word order trickery might be played and we can talk a little bit more about the russian is one of these example um forgetting to definite thing i'm guessing new information introduced early [noise] in a clause that seems normal so i'm gonna i'm gonna throw it out there and gas and then you make is that is that right um i i never really uh <unk> uh i don't really remember i was talking about <unk> it wasn't really a linguistic based course it was more of uh of course of where you know i just saw house are really explain it they didn't say well the different articles the [noise] the <unk> they didn't really do a very mechanical breakdown of it was more of a [laughter] [noise] yeah right but we but i guess we've mentioned before the russian handle <unk> with a swear word or it doesn't have any articles and all correct right um and this is related to um <unk> topic prominent languages in general [noise] expect topics to be definite [noise] mhm and if you think about what a topic comment structure does that sort of makes sense you need to introduce something for you couldn't talk about it and once it's been introduced it is definite [noise] mhm um a persian it's a good example of another system so it has an overt direct object marker <unk> only use for definite down and not <unk> and this appears to be uh sort of brought her pattern in languages with optional direct object marking um they are either sensitive to definite or intimacy although not everyone agrees with that but those are two come and patterns that's interesting yeah i can see i can definitely see the how it works or animosity because it's sort of uh marking the unexpected exactly like more animate ah now the subject or [noise] um it was just um i just looked up the russian grammar i would be i found the are the <unk> the article a blurb on there they say that um did you mention the word order can affect us off you say [noise] <unk> ah <unk> come up to uh come up to the boy rushed into the room versus come up to uh <unk> uh <unk> at the end of the rest of the room but they also said that um <unk> you might have a different <unk> uh <unk> just so the <unk> the versus uh oh oh okay well um i'm just just to be clear my understand <unk> <unk> are we to understand like in the first one with the boy the boy ends up before [noise] um [noise] before room and then the second one the <unk> you if you look at i posted a link there it's actually um under the section called titled now um there's a list of four points there um and it shows um example number [noise] too and i i'm sorry <unk> number three um says <unk> <unk> <unk> so literally in rome accused of um ran into and then uh boy it's a boy that's another room whereas if you <unk> boy is beginning <unk> then you have <unk> boy <unk> run into and then <unk> uh basically showing movement into the room oh oh okay i thought it was wrong somebody needs to add closet [laughter] um but yeah and then uh nah number one is with the <unk> and then putting or four months <unk> oh okay so there's there's a few different uh strategy [noise] um i think um one thing one thing i'd want to to bring up and leave me had some notes on the [noise] um is sort of historical um historically there are <unk> different sources for for articles if you're going articles all generally indefinite or who come from the newer ones right yep or some sort of funky reduced existential construction as chinese can use for example [noise] yes um in fact i was going to mention chinese um chinese has craze of marking indefinite um you can either use like um [noise] what just save one and then measure word or just the measure word sometimes so that's uh that gives you the meaning of one <unk> you know <unk> <unk> <unk> uh a dog or you have this um i think this usually happens where indefinite subjects is you use y'all which you owe it to have but it also is the extra central uh where there is um there is there are yeah yeah so you say uh you'll run something i don't know i don't know give me a sentence without uh and and i got quite a person uh a man a man walked into a bar uh <unk> uh <unk> so that's [noise] so but there's no way that marks definite yeah well right now in the sense that there is an english but if you make something of topic than it is likely to be definitely a if you make if you make something a topic it's probably going to be <unk> yeah so do you make a really important point or <unk> you didn't make the point would you reminded me that there's a difference between indefinite <unk> in the grammatical sense that we're talking about here in <unk> in the sense of uncertainty mhm mhm [noise] um and if i start a story and i say uh yesterday i was walking to the bus stop and i saw a guy and he was wearing <unk> alright that guy is specific <unk> definite when i introduced him because he knew and they need to let my masters nudity going [laughter] they knew [noise] part of this conversation [noise] but he no that is different from saying you know like the laws if <unk> if a man guilty as neighbors goat and he showed me penalize you know some number right that is a non specific indefinite [noise] something like that are very sensitive to the distinction [noise] i didn't i didn't do much research on that so people might wanna dig cause some interesting mm [noise] phenomenal and linguistically can happen around that <unk> some ah some people will talk about um sort of to act c's ah definitely miss and specificity oh yeah um and uh yeah that's that that's um that that's a good illustration in your case um uh i saw a guy and he was wearing a too too that is a specific person the listener doesn't know this person exist yet that's why you're introducing indefinite but that is a dude in the real world yeah [noise] but in your example if a man uh killed his joke or whatever then then that is not a specific person that is like if any guy if any man so it's not really it it's so that's a separate issue from the way uh <unk> right mhm um but don't confuse them when you're working on your language [laughter] yeah yeah different issue [noise] um so for other historical stuff definite articles are very very very often crushed and processed demonstrative corona [noise] or or <unk> [noise] now i want to um it seems like the it seems like the romance ones are actually derived from from now [noise] that also ah <unk> ah well the boundary between the pronoun demonstrative additives slice pronoun and articles are very thin and many of the european languages [noise] things that <unk> this become the uh-huh it happened to english it happened to greek [noise] um and the different romance languages took uh i thought they took the whole <unk> family which i would consider <unk> oh really i mean well i don't know um they may be that they were <unk> and they became on one hand um [noise] uh definite articles and then the other hand uh <unk> will turn out right because you know in <unk> in in spanish you have <unk> and then line age yeah those are those look related they may not you know it's been so long since i've looked at historical linguistics or the romance languages that i'm not sure i'm guessing [laughter] we're just coming from and they're definitely demonstrative is but they're also used um they're one of several systems that are you where english would use personal third person for no no yeah that's a whole other topic uh where you um the <unk> yeah um alright what else do we have you have you have a bunch of stupid marketing correct [laughter] mhm marking of definite and it is often related to to other things that maybe you wouldn't think of necessarily so one <unk> smart can we've not talked about yet and which i just love so much is the hungarian divert ah yes but the <unk> well you were talking about non phrases why are we talking about [laughter] this is because hungarian verbs have two different conjugation surely indefinite conjugation which is usually in trenton denver and with trends <unk> indefinite <unk> and then you have a definite system which is used when you were direct object is definite [noise] [laughter] so it it could it on the verb system now there is also in hungarian conjugation marker for a first person singular subject and they <unk> second person singular or plural object so it looks like hungarian had something st louis like holly personal agreement which was very purpose should become sort of a definition marker mhm [noise] so it it it's sort of uh switched in that way that's that's an interesting thing to mark <unk> on the verb or the object yeah um so i'm i'm seeing a strong vibe here with this example in the persian example uh for some reason direct object may meat definite marking or more so than subject which makes sense to me for the same reason that and she does right we frequently as a condition right we can introduce new topics either by saying you know using existential construction they're in or there was a man you know there was a <unk> yeah right you can make them the object uh i saw a man right so the object um so it it kind of makes sense that that that's going on although yeah i think probably you could spend lots of time getting excited about it [noise] so yeah all of his talk about hungarian is leading up to a really interesting thing about what other kinds of [noise] thing require you to use the definite conjugation versus the indefinite conjugation mm [noise] so obviously the definite conjugation is used with a direct object is has a definite article mhm um it is used if they use the <unk> determine who's like richer each things like that um it is used if there's a third person pronoun object dated or an slated [noise] it's usually if the down phrase has a demonstrative pronoun okay [noise] and that's really interesting because my favorite example the whole time ancient greek in that they definitely article is always used unknown phrases if they are also being mark the demonstrative you never see this man you say this the man that is really interesting because [noise] uh you know in english those are those excluding <unk> they do exclude each other but we've got several i mean how often are you <unk> ignoring a certain um sort of informal construction we can talk about in the moment if you use the word that on a noun in english you uh i i assume it's always going to be a definite yeah um well it's yeah i think so it's one of those pragmatic definite usually you know there there's there's sort of informal ways to introduce things in this this course by saying so there was this guy right but more standard lay and normally i think more often you are using this or that when there is something either physically but you can see that you can indicate you know by pointing at work just record it or looking at it or um sort of uh what what can we say metaphorical ay yeah within a certain distance up your mind well yeah right we use it to organize discourse thing yeah things to keep track of and the discourse you can talk about this and that um to distinguish them as well and that's why this and that are so often grammatical eyes into various kinds of sport <unk> instructions for the for the same reason [noise] mhm so i mean they don't make sense but it's not necessarily things we were always thinking about [noise] <unk> um what was going to say [noise] i think that was it [noise] um those if you have never looked at hungarians magnificent verb system i recommend do too so it's kinda cool mhm mhm right so [noise] i have it in my mind that possessed noun alta required to disney conjugation in hungarian but i'm not seeing that on that we could get paid so i could be <unk> but in many languages <unk> also count as definite yeah now and it doesn't even have it doesn't necessarily have to be the um congregation too um there are languages i know that um i can't think of what language is <unk> let's put their language but it has a definite article but the definite article cook her with um caught hers with um uh possessing italian <unk> your meal uh you know i don't know where something ah singing something yeah you know and it's very <unk> again many languages um have various instructions than involved with that for an article and production happening at the same time um you know like my <unk> [noise] um in <unk> in me up costing yeah something like that the topic is that's a pretty fixes are just are historically derived from particle and possessing marker the curriculum together in the crime down near [noise] now you know in ancient greek [noise] ah the death an article can mark innately able position so you don't typically say um i talked to my father used say i talked to the father and it just seems to be yours um because you've just didn't have an article so it's just it's just like [noise] if i if i say i talk to the father <unk> much <unk> people assume that you're talking about your own fault right um sort of confusing we on the opposite side the definite article can be used to talk about generalization <unk> the bears is a cranky animal yeah you're right <unk> <unk> which is another one of those things of this is a nonspecific what somehow mark there's definite well it's it's like talking about the sun or the moon everyone knows anything about it at this <unk> um actually it's it's it's an abstract concept of the <unk> but that is expected to be recovered <unk> every once and they just being bears in general yeah um definite articles are frequently hijacked porn <unk> thing [noise] um <unk> greek but also the quota uh so you say thing um you turn pretty much any part of speech into now which includes some clauses so super nation marking um <unk> some writing the mind to integrate doesn't actually do this [noise] when you say things like i don't like the heat drink beer mhm [laughter] um so which which like we would we would express them to a different way i would say like we don't like his drinking a beer i wouldn't say that yeah it's a weird way to <unk> right [laughter] yeah it's a it's a bikini rented um [laughter] because he would say uh another thing that it can be hijacked for is relative <unk> demand though you wants to him went no mm mm that's cool yeah i may have to steal that idea [laughter] um and again <unk> both do this i was not expecting to see this [noise] deep relationship between <unk> where there's an interesting story or scary scary bumbling in there somewhere [laughter] people laugh [noise] yeah um and <unk> say about <unk> trip [noise] [noise] i mean those are the big one um and then they can do more um [noise] say now um there's a few things i kind of want to say and this is really because i have limited sort of information i only really no two languages have sort of the over at least over like definite articles and both of them are in the european so i don't have a whole lot of info on here but i know one thing is if it comparing the languages i know that have definite articles english and spanish there's some cases where you just kind of have to know that [noise] certain things [noise] take a <unk> in one and not the other for one thing um in english abstract concept [noise] tend not to take articles are all right but in spanish they often take a definite articles so you talk about in english you said just low you can't say the <unk> it's weird mhm uh uh uh unless you're changing the meaning of the <unk> like you're talking about a specific <unk> but in spanish you always say a lot more right so yeah that's another thing um another one i think it i don't think either one of them has articles on <unk> now uh on a mass now so i don't know if there's cases where you would have <unk> again changing the meaning right [noise] yeah that's the main ticks oh word and really change from language language how interacts with definite marketing in general and this is another thing that scared that relieving daylights out of me as a teenage <unk> and reading about things like lightning each degree was being baffled by these new sets of rules or how the article worked from language language mhm yeah [noise] i think you can say the water yeah you can say the water but it's different from just saying water yeah uh in in a way that it's not just about <unk> some some <unk> [laughter] yeah [noise] um [noise] and the last big point i saw that i want to mention before we get on to my twenties um there's some linguists suspects but not everyone's confirmed that definite articles are more common in languages without tastes fucking <unk> and the idea is that languages without cape marking have very strong feelings about word order whereas if you have kids marking you might have or for your word order which allows you to do other kinds of ways to signal definite [noise] without <unk> yeah we should mentioned we we were licking to a paper but they like they admit even that they're using a very small sample uh language is just to illustrate the it's a very <unk> very sort of studying but it still has his thing stuff in it yeah it's a little uh speculative but um it has some interesting um ah what i say it some some interesting implications um another paper i link to but i'm not really talking about too much um it's a paper on central average linguistics the papers called known classification definite this number and position which again talks about how in the relationship between semantics and definitely this can interact when he weight [noise] and it had the night section showing the lexical used of class which <unk> which i've talked about from time to time but could never speak of example this paper [laughter] mhm [noise] so i wanted to get to my job any point which is really interesting i started a very heated an irritating discussion on the comedy mailing list related to that topic [noise] [noise] yeah [laughter] i knew i knew a curtain <unk> person i found when i was looking for an example of over the seventies um have linked um a paper that ah <unk> link but like it's a p._d._f. i have here and i can share that [noise] but um it talks about how the uh in japanese there's a <unk> a restriction that says an indefinite announcers come up here in the subject position and they get the example i'm a totally box position [noise] but um <unk> <unk> get to do which is literally person male progressive sleep meaning of boys sleeping under a magical whereas if you make it <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> <unk> we got two boys sleeping it's grammatical and i've heard that before where in some languages um you know your subject must be a definite uh non phrase or must there are certain restrictions on on um there was also an example see uh that shows there is a boy he was sleeping is [noise] is grammatical so if you say they're exist <unk> person who sleeves so [noise] oh it's uh it's um [noise] a <unk> a small proper on along <unk> <unk> get to do so there there is a boy he was sleeping that's how you <unk> <unk> in in the <unk> yeah yeah that's that's similar to what happens in chinese where you put an extra special construction subject um um <unk> right so [noise] i made a statement that you know linguist have many linguistic study and recognize it as a genuine phenomenon but for some reason a bunch of people in the common man it was just [noise] yeah anyway um it turns out that in the course they normal unscripted conversation we almost never have indefinite subjects <unk> yeah i <unk> i want to emphasize that normal unscripted conversation i think that's the point that a lot of people in that argument we're missing [noise] is that yes when you are writing <unk> people people right these kinds of something all the time with them indefinite <unk> right but it's not common when you're just talking to people about you know <unk> sort of unscripted telling a story it's unusual for you to to have to have an indefinite and the subject usually you have to introduce it first and then make it definite right you'd say and the example they get in there with them and i saw yesterday and he helped me you know something like that um and the sensitivity about definite nist versus <unk> subject um is interesting right so what mice example prohibits an indefinite subject even for an <unk> whereas the the effect i was discussing and to do with ah trends that ever happened to be [noise] ah <unk> and uh in some languages this rule is so strong that you are not even committed to use an overt now <unk> as the subject of uh transiting verb it must be a pronoun [noise] oh that's interesting so as always you can find everything the pacific northwest so this is some of the <unk> just like [noise] mm [noise] i can't remember the name anyway some of the say listen languages you can never have trains the verb with an entrees <unk> non trace it the subject mm okay so you you you would you would have to say <unk> like [noise] ah there was a man he <unk> he helps me or <unk> and and those languages the restrictions on the subject of trends that <unk> that's that's really an interesting uh restriction but they just the idea that um for some reason language is can be so incredibly allergic to having something that not in the discourse already has the subject [laughter] well um as you said it occurs so rarely in natural discourse indian languages that permitted it's two two to five percent of sentences mhm um smoking smoking you know non scripted non television so it's pretty unusual to start with and then that unusual illness becomes turned into a rule somehow mhm yeah um [noise] now i kind of want to say like i'm guessing that uh sort of pronouns would be just by default considered <unk> yeah just because they're referring to something you are right now about [noise] um proper now is i think you would generally i shoot <unk> although quite often can't take articles um um um specifically thinking about people's names at least in english they can't take articles or persons name camp right ah in spanish the title a person has cat does require an article at least the way i was taught uh in the subject 'cause you have to <unk> um but i don't think just crop or nay by itself right um what was i going to say there's something there's weirdness in hungarian situation <unk> um [noise] and i forget what happens if you have over <unk> i think there's some weirdness there but maybe we should get too hung up i'm sure [noise] um some of the the patterns as <unk> you get a grammar pattern and then it becomes a routine eyes and that sort of starts to leak out and take over takeover knew me [noise] yeah well i mean i think we've kind of defined what the basics are of uh uh <unk> and then there's a whole lot of wiggle room you have to um to deal with where where where you end up going yeah [noise] yeah um one of the thing that i want to mention with um i was going to know when we were talking about the outcome time uh articles kinda kinda cause sound changes <unk> postal linked to the irish gaelic olympia um nothing definite article after some <unk> there there's an <unk> ah <unk> and especially the um [noise] in nominate singular like a woman <unk> um you have a <unk> that initial confident but uh and for masculine it out so it's an interesting kind of <unk> there that have to do with um the both of case and the gender of whatever the object of the um [noise] you know the thing there has to be a historical excellent yeah i have this hilarious textbook of old irish so <unk> aggrandizement into european languages once said about old irish that it's like mowing the lawn it's something you have to do periodically [laughter] so terrifying difficult in art um [noise] the the the textbook is called shelter though i'm an it's hilarious because there are a little drawings of cartoon sheep doing improbable things in old irish um [noise] <unk> what are the the good points of that book as opposed to some of the old man you is that it gives you reconstruction of likely <unk> forms that you can see well look this word used to end of the nasal therefore various kinds of changes happened [noise] this word used to ended about <unk> therefore other kinds of changes happened when we are taught so [laughter] um most of this historical process religion is pretty well understood i think yeah mhm so uh it's interesting because also there are it can be helpful that the um the <unk> because i think there was a proposition that looks the same as the article but it won't call that <unk> so if you have <unk> they have on there for example <unk> the woman versus um banned that two different things because one called <unk> and the other one will not so you can kinda tell which one which on over there i think all of the modern uh celtic languages both resigned nick and 'cause i like to have confusing possessive mhm forms like his her my mhm you're [noise] that are easily confused for other words but defend entirely on some sort of falling <unk> yeah yeah um and um that's sort of uh seems like a very celtic thing just to have all those mutations mhm um occurring on the actual word i think it's probably more common to have these these odd chronological reductions or rules that occur on the article itself uh english the gets just reduced and beating up all the time and uh we have we have the the wonderful uh anne and split which um presumably comes from the fact that it was originally on and somehow the and gets dropped <unk> when when there's a <unk> [noise] what we can look forward to a day when the celtic languages leaves the article entirely in only <unk> [laughter] and then again like some of these parents who language that only have toned changes <unk> yeah that would that gotcha that's but that's uh quite an interesting thing [laughter] mhm uh think about you seem to churn through another few centuries and there'll be good [laughter] so do you think um other articles will rise to the occasion or [noise] i don't know they might think you're right there's so many kinds of initial competent mutations that you're always going to have some words that would be left without any marketing and all rented they wouldn't <unk> definite an indefinite and that might be put pressure on for the <unk> some new system but i don't know you know i i i kind of wonder about if this this chinese tendency to use the the measure work or new roll class are or whatever you there's the class of far as like an indefinite article if that could get carried into the future and turn into like a really weird degenerative uh degenerate um gender system sure it's <unk> only occurs on the indefinite article the agreement and i should say i think i'm remembering correctly that it's pretty common for these um [noise] measure words it's been i called them in the chinese <unk> [noise] uh in other languages of the region to be hijacked and turned into either definite or indefinite article yeah so it could happen yeah mm and then you have to remember maybe maybe the number of the class <unk> end up getting reduced in that scenario part of the town right right oh you'll get a bad too like you know eight genders here seven over here and twelve over there you know [laughter] we'll be an exciting time for for lincoln [laughter] and then and then it goes even more bent who like and they start um putting them before her and stuff yeah [laughter] i was there we've got we're giving you all these ideas for free another service provided by the <unk> uh yeah [laughter] for your your future chinese think about this idea now [laughter] um so i don't know do we have any sort of other things to say about the topic i know we're kind of we're trying to get this um showdown as quickly as possible or reason [noise] um [laughter] sorry that's the first time i've heard that particular bit is internet slang namely big reason used verbally but okay [laughter] i said for reasons i didn't say because he reads the same <unk> anyway [laughter] so are we ready for feedback i believe so yeah okay so that was from patrick cars uh um [noise] oh we had i guess we had uh mentioned this he said i do in fact listen to the entire <unk> every episode although i do admit i listen to that one and a half speed because i actually have no time to look in the first place oh god i want to know what program you're using because i tunes does not do double speed memorial i was just thinking i'm i i speak quickly normally i won't have to be a surprise even follow thing you know ugly i don't know i actually [laughter] you are um i often <unk> um when i'm uh <unk> editing i usually do it at one and half speed or up to um or even up to like one point seven speed huh and yeah you're hard to understand at that rate but only because audacity doesn't correct um pitches ah so your voice becomes very very hot [laughter] i thought i noticed that once i'm like why would why really sound like that [laughter] i've been trying to [noise] i wouldn't try talking [laughter] actually i think i was listening to the electric <unk> valley contest recently and they talked about just what sort of murder rate uh human can process language it and it's surprisingly fast mhm uh-huh <unk> yeah i i imagine it takes more concentration but if you can listen and what did they have to be good for you okay anyway so that's just the first son she has more he said [noise] uh and i'd like to thank you off so much for your pot cast out it i'd have been ball because i because i attempted to learn my <unk> [laughter] uh [noise] i'm assuming he means he'd be pulling his hair [laughter] yeah you're you're a pot cast has helped me figure out how to real in my craziness while still keeping the features i love and you do it with humor and intelligent you or you'll y'all are ethically amazing uh he he capitalized just the e. p. i. c. ethically ah awesome helpful insert other <unk> your people patrick uh <unk> uh from south western university <unk> also the the pre scripted and me would like to give to see that trick for selling the correct version of real for them you know [laughter] <unk> we're we're glad we're <unk> oh okay yeah he uh he's our <unk> which is what you're supposed to do this somebody who who spells that are are you in jail seeming stones many interesting yeah don't challenge people on [laughter] i guess i don't know i guess i'm i don't like fishing but i'm familiar enough for was fishing to know the difference but huh honey trained anyway [noise] so that there's not much to say about that i like i like when we get uh the <unk> emails pillow just pray [laughter] just pray just baskin it [laughter] that that we probably shouldn't uh we we should probably focus on doing the the ones that question but uh we have a few of those [noise] those will be in <unk> so anyway ah i'm going to go to william now and william what are your final words i am just leaded to record that from my return engagement i have not thought of any were divorced him so i went to this path on wisdom and i will try to be better next time okay and my um [noise] words of wisdom [noise] by the way you guys i'm not hearing that train our thing we are to train earlier [laughter] but um [noise] now you're nothing but you must have the mutants so uh what are those them for me um unless you guys came <unk> ah one of those um [noise] i can hear your sweet um awesome [noise] um yeah so it was just ah learn different things will be afraid to touch anything [noise] um [noise] and worst case scenario you find out oh this is a little confusing or best gift now this is awesome what finalize that actually has a four year the only one which is very unlikely but even sell it to be constantly often i worked for you by all means [noise] before and enjoy [noise] all right i'm gonna say [noise] happy <unk> with a specific training thank you for listening to <unk> you could find our our cars <unk> dot com you can send questions comments <unk> featured language suggestions [noise] to <unk> dot com [noise] to submit a con langhorn that line greedy for the top of the show see our contributed paid for detail [noise] <unk> provided by the language creation society and our team music is by no device [noise] wait a minute what okay called murder is not working at all which is one thing that i used to record with this peace i use audacity to but <unk> only picking up me this pre see is having difficulty recording recalled due to either way too many applications running or be it's <unk> okay how close from applications say something hello hello huh it'll come to come on or either <unk> <unk> okay [laughter] so it's picking up you on audacity now to the point where it has actually not recorded a single second it's just counting up how many seconds behind jeeze so it's like why in <unk> georgia just puzzled beside here mm <unk> puzzled i've i'm just trying to figure out why i'm using two point four gigabytes of memory of this like put out the call but i mean um [noise] me greetings i get like two <unk> [laughter] [noise] oh wow yeah i guess it's a lot louder when i have a <unk> um [noise] let me see i could turn down the heat and hope that doesn't get colds too quickly [noise] although a blanket if we need to [noise] that's hard core [laughter] yeah and i'm near sacrificing heat for <unk> medication how their back i huh [noise] everyone <unk> before the show just like travel [laughter]

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  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. conlang
  4. definiteness
  5. language
  6. linguistics

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 76 Definiteness (last edited 2017-09-08 17:17:26 by TranscriBot)