Conlangery #85: Multilingual Conworlds

Conlangery #85: Multilingual Conworlds

Published: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 08:10:18 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 [noise] [noise] walk 'em too <unk> language is for people to create the mind jordan or like with me oh man oh down the road a ways we have william man that's hello i had to think a little bit on that one and uh over in mainly have <unk> hello [noise] so uh how are you guys doing [noise] let me do you mean though for rain yes make is getting this is what snowstorm number three for you guys something like that but every time we turn around the getting ready for another one and this morning there was nothing but now there's no slush everywhere so mm uh i guess that's what i got promoted up here no lovely company when i was coming back from uh uh uh a trip to new york recently i was in the cabin they had the news on the weatherman was predicting that they was going to be a <unk> uh uh you know sleeping so into immediately i thought we treat mix it sounded like a terrible terrible new flavor up to read it [laughter] the common thing right <unk> mix it sounds like a food marketing scheme not [laughter] not really terrible weather condition was what it really <unk> <unk> well what's really bad is freezing rain freezing rain yeah which we then when you have your so george has had i'm sure the experience of trying not to crack open this go about getting the question [laughter] ah that's fine i have experience with with ice i know how to walk on it so one thing i'm going to give listeners quick heads up william is actually recording this episode and i am on a crappy limit lennox laptop so i may sort of cut out a little bit on us up us out because <unk> is not ideal but uh that's just uh uh just just to to mention that i i make it out anything that that messes a mess things up too much <unk> er we were done to know <unk> yeah yeah let's let's go ahead and introduce that so um our topic today is actually much more of a con worldly or a uh uh fiction writing topic than it is so much a con lying topic is you can a lot of the things we're gonna talk about you can do without creating any hotlines but uh just this is something that has come up to me because you know i read a lot of fantasy fiction and but they have different degrees of uh describing you know the language situation in the world and often it just seems very simplified you know that there's a few languages that are sort of within their own sort of states or within their own cultures and it's not so much uh realistic so we're going to talk about multilingual con world and how how to you know gives the impression of realistic multi <unk> when you're writing about a con world yeah and even when you're writing fiction in a condo so um and one the my main point on this is multilingual ism tends to be sort of the normal situation yep uh put throughout the world and you would expect even more of it in the the sort of um uh pre modern societies that you've seen fantasy novels and stuff uh it's the i think a lot of um the the the unrealistic portrayal of language in in a lot of science fiction and fantasy fiction comes from the fact that that's a lot of it is written by us americans and america is effectively monolingual speakers of english yeah yeah america is very surprisingly monolingual but if you talk about different regions of the world you know talking about going to india or to the philippines or african american anywhere anywhere outside of uh our little corner of the world there's usually quite a few languages spoken in in uh in an area so um we're just gonna talk about different things uh that aren't surrealistic different ways you can make things more realistic and once again it's this is really uh met a fiction type of topic and a con worldly type of topic you don't necessarily have to create any kind of likes to take advantage of this advice but if you are creating <unk> some of this advice will applied you as well if you are <unk> within a con world yeah um so i don't know who wants to start with a different point here um i'm really i'm really put mine down their minor more just uh my head so you guys can start if you want yeah so uh i have a few points and the first thing i want to say just in terms of being a a um linguistically savvy reader fiction and i certainly read a lot of fantasy as well as a science fiction if you name your language old high anything i will send you down like a rabbit dog [laughter] now now just to explain that just really quickly so very this what uh what williams talking about is people in a lot of fantasy fiction will tend to me and my language high <unk> high i elvin or or something like that [noise] meaning uh with the meaning of it being um higher register or a a a a prestige language but high in the general sense that it's used in linguistics is often uh <unk> it's often related to old high german which it's not it wasn't a prestigious dialect so <unk> so to speak it was just spoken in the mount <unk> [laughter] <unk> yes yeah so i mean oh hi elvis to me just sounds like aging hippie else [laughter] a little tricky to to <unk> when you when you use that name it might be it might annoys some people especially if you're using it in a way that's that's sort of non standard that way and bite annoying people they needed a leak [laughter] ah that's what i wanted to say about that just don't do it yeah um if there is something that approximate a quote unquote common tongue he just going to be the result of some kind of imperialism usually pretty military could be economic <unk> could simply the economic trade um yeah but it's important to understand that even then the language may be very restricted any news yeah now people may be the only people who use the local elites maybe the only people who use it yeah just talking a little better off the common <unk> i think i have a point here that <unk> the common tongue is not a terribly realistic trip as it's presented it a lot of fantasy crick tricks um a lot a lot of fantasies fiction and and and a lot of like role playing games uh for understandable reason it's sort of assumed that everybody is uh is capable of speaking the the common tongue everyone's piling want it that's not a realistic situation you know english so uh the uh common <unk> which that term always makes me laugh a little bit because uh you know you when you call the language the common common speech at one of the terms for mandarin the native terms <unk> can be translated as common speech so i always think oh holy fantasy worlds they're speaking chinese [laughter] but uh digression aside um english is arguably the most successful when we're frank uh in the world but not every one in the world speak speaks it has a lot of speakers it has i think over a billion speakers if he can't second language speakers but you can very easily go to a place and find people who can't speak english so this idea that you would have a linguist frank that everyone knows and there's no barriers to um to uh understanding linguistically it's convenient for some kinds of stories but it's not terribly realistic right um the common tongue picked like if you had military imperialist adventures creative asked empire it may not be their language <unk> picked for the link with frank there may they may pick up something that's already established like <unk> was used by the indian empire even though the indians themselves the <unk> the people at the top did not speak the language <unk> originally <unk> when the romans took over the <unk> they just let greek place uh my favorite example is hungry which was a huge multi cultural um empire um and for all of their business they just use latin [laughter] uh um for um quite late actually speaking of china you know they were invaded a couple of times by um you know outsiders uh <unk> and then the man choose both times they ended up running all their administrator <unk> and uh chinese and whatever the the the uh the proceeds chinese uh of the time was so [noise] um so that was that what i wanted to save up the common tone yeah it's definitely sort of just just something you have to think about um doing a little bit uh i don't know uh what's actually move onto another thing 'cause i don't <unk> think we have anything else to say on that particular trip but one interesting thing that might happen in if you have a centralized government or <unk> governments is what jobs really are you're interpreters doing uh-huh um they might be doing more than just standing around translated they might be diplomat they might be um somehow more involved in the fares the government and simply providing translation um and then i have a reference ear to the drug among which is um [noise] i can't even remember the turks um yeah <unk> um use them and they were both diplomats and translators and various other sort of minor stuff she can have a lot of fun with what your translators are where are they coming from what class are they coming from how much more sorts of room for political hanky panky as possible if you write that kind of an awful [noise] it it seems to make sense for uh an interpreter translator to fill that role of a diplomat or and emma sorry right or possibly also be a strive or something like that sure absolutely absolutely but but there could be a lot of different things and who becomes interpreters too like you know is it are are the people who learn language is part of the priesthood or are they just in described class and or are they um in the <unk> class to begin with and then show an interest in learning different languages that's there's a whole lot of things you can deal with but there's a few uh interesting things [noise] um well let's let's talk to you have some more points about the world um but uh and then i have some stuff about characters but uh um this is i i saw this question here williams he said is your is the landscape littered with references to previous languages right um if you got history is their things like latin do you have instructions in the landscaping languages people no longer speak <unk> more maybe only a few people speak i think we might have mentioned this in um in the previous upset but also plays names are <unk> you know you can have this languages having plays names there's no towns cities uh even just geographical teachers short order floor and fauna [noise] that are are from a different language altogether yeah uh uh useful thing to do here is um obviously most of our audience is going to be creating <unk> but it can be useful even if you have <unk> and you want to have other languages represented you can just create like a naming language uh that that just has a little bit of knowledge in morphology in order to get place names and personal names and stuff that you can add in to give give things more debt yeah yeah um it might pop up and you know they're funny ways you might have lethargic uses and so forth to sort of something that we expect of language is like like i was gonna say um you know doesn't have to say it'd be like one one civilization another civilization or one country another country and you're kind of world could also be like a religious language or if there's something like <unk> and it's not really spoken by any countries anymore except for that you know that can um it could be something that's tied to either the church or maybe a certain class or certain <unk> ah certain case lots of options yeah yeah yeah one thing that um that sort of gets to me about um a game of the the uh the song of ice and fire series and there is a good bit of talking about different languages and and fairly realistic in some ways and the way to picks language diversity but all of <unk> the common tongue uh west roast or if you are north <unk> there are some people who speak to the old town you don't have they <unk> there's never any mention of any pockets of villages that speak other languages [noise] now what is the west coast equivalent of task yeah yeah i i mean seriously or even like well you know some some descendent of the old tongue that spoke in some pocket of first men somewhere but you don't hear about any of that now possibly part of that may be that ah it's all a it's a story all about lords and ladies and they they only deal with the prestige language but you know it it it could be an interesting sort of edition if if if <unk> had thought about thinking about there may be an being more languages <unk> sure and it becomes an opportunity for tension between your characters if somebody has an accent of one of these languages [noise] oh yeah uh and that's another thing talking about characters i have a couple of points specifically regarding characters for one um a character could speak quite a few languages and this is sort of a case by case basis uh what sort of an environment or they living in and uh where they go on but even a character that's not um that linguistically incline if they live in a very linguistically diverse community they may speak five or six languages [noise] really but i guess two or three but five or six teams like an awful lot [noise] that may be on the outside though probably two or three is more likely five and six six is is a little bit at the limit ah just casually learning it from uh the environment and it depends on what your linguistic environment is um if you're going further than that it's definitely someone who's focused on language and if it's more than ten languages that someone who's sort of obsessed with learning languages so [laughter] um that's general rules are probably two or three would be the most common situation for people um trying to remember what i was reading in the last few months where i thought that the number of languages people were speaking was <unk> i can't remember <unk> you should it's it's a chick that yeah what am i <unk> i think two or three languages would be normal um depending on the environment five or six is like the limit for someone who is learning languages just to get through their daily life and then further than that they're they're they have some focus either they're very highly educated or they're focussed on language uh in some way so uh but that <unk> those could be very good rules um another thing i wanted to say is um i encounter a lot of like descriptions of languages <unk> didn't really necessarily construct language and i'm often not sure what they're describing [laughter] [noise] was uh one of my weirdest one of the weirdest things like um an example in the wise men fear by uh patrick process who's apparently lives in who apparently lives in wisconsin does he does yeah um [noise] he described um it's the what's the swedish ninjas what's <unk> what are they called <unk> swedish ninjas well they're they're like they're matriarchal fair haired people a damn okay okay <unk> speak this language and he talks about the <unk> the language but the <unk> some of the word determine something and you know i think about it i'm like is it tone pitch accent is it <unk> what is it this has the elvis disease yeah [laughter] right where these sort of vague descriptions are given about this great subtlety in <unk> simple changes in words you know turning from you know simple reading into deadly insulting that sort of stuff that sort of standard fare in fancy languages people who are not very we're sort of superhuman simply yeah yeah yeah i'm sorry i called them the sweetest managers 'cause they 'cause of other things but they're <unk> they're called the eight of them but ah that they are like a race of mercenaries but anyway from this um this uh the the the sort of description i can see where it makes sense though because your characters are not um reliable mariners in terms of language necessarily right in fact even a native speaker will be an unreliable marry her to some degree um <unk> you know unless they are like a linguist so they're going to be very much unreliable <unk> even if it's their native language talking about so you could probably put a lot of the detailed into an appendix or something if you have ah four online and um but you know there are i don't know really it's something you would have to be really thinking about because it's really a case by case basis but i think you could have ways of showing certain things about language without <unk> without getting too technical yeah that's another thing that i have on my list here is you probably often in writing these now you simply <unk> your readers don't care for the most part you do not need to come up with four languages yeah but i still think it would be very important to keep a document about the languages and keep notes the basic outline about stuff so that you do not screw up um your own invention so you keep them straight especially <unk> multiple things going on [noise] in some authors are able to say a whole lot about language without ever really coming up with a call like we would consider a full fledged combing frank herbert can be quite good at this um c._g. charity it's very good at this um and for people who are interested in trying to <unk> i recommend the chow newer books and the forerunner universe books especially the foreigner university or a little unusual because the main character is a linguist or rather than interpreter yeah um so that a little unusual and that that that's actually another thing is like um how relevant issue in in the on the fiction writing side of this how relevant is language the story in the forerunner series is very relevant because this guy is an interpreter and uh uh a good deal of conflict will will come of how well he can translate and what he's translating it when these um heavy mhm um hussein and in the charter books it's less important it still comes up because she has such wildly different um aliens uh-huh machines to jesus <unk> communicate uh <unk> uh two <unk> two baffled the author tobacco the reader as much as the other characters are baffled by sometimes especially the the math and reading aliens are always <unk> which is a weird little convention of science fiction [noise] methane breathing yes did you read methane than your super crazy alien [laughter] pulling this off can be a little tricky you know balancing the linguistic detailed <unk> your <unk> reader's we'll load and then all these things down um c._j. share he's lucky because she tends to write what some people call answerable logical science fiction um where you can get away with this because it's part of the exploration of the world is talking about like mhm not too many books um i'm going to be that way and not to the authors [laughter] yeah it's sort of it's sort of like you know if you're writing a fantasy story mhm you're not as likely to be really having a character that focus is so much wrong language you know if it really always depends on what the story is who the characters are and and and where things are going how you would present language uh in the story so um i go ahead i was just remembering something yeah and by the way i don't know if we we can really think of ourselves uh as really authorities on fiction writing i'm an aspiring author but haven't really published anything ah but i'm just sort of going by things that i've seen and ways that i think certain stories can be improved <unk> one thing that i wanted to mention 'cause it just occurred to me about multilingual is in in america especially on the west coast where it was great deal of linguistic thing <unk> is a lot of the new american groups who lives there practice <unk> which meant that they always married out of the trial um which meant that very many people had parents who spoke different languages mhm mhm um so so so much so that sometimes we have all of our documentation about some very highly endangered language is coming from somebody who does i consider themselves part of that try but simply spoke at because that's what their moms mhm um or some other relatives books so that's another thing to consider in some <unk> some <unk> is the possibility of different sorts of marriage arrangements um making for <unk> interesting social stuff um but also interesting the basic stuff mhm yeah definitely um and it's you know to what extent all of this becomes relevant enough that you mention it right now they're showing already done it as matters yeah yeah yeah like ah for all my characters i have to sort of have noticed down what languages they speak but that's just me and whether it shows up in the story just depends on you know whether they get a chance to mention that or use it in any way that makes any sense so <unk> there's a humus incident uh in the forerunner universe books by c._j. cherry where one workout spelled multiple ways [laughter] sometimes on different ages so at her editors had no way to cope with that they just put down what she put down um so she had to issue really leaders <unk> yeah this is definitely for the people who do uh actual a lot of <unk> in in their books which a lot of the the writers in her audience will be will be doing some actual calm lines in the <unk> uh you want to be very careful that uh before you make that cannon uh about you know fixing mistakes and and checking for type of as there because no editor we'll be able to tell you any different [laughter] they won't catch him mistakes [laughter] so if you miss type it they're probably gonna you know you're the one who knows all about it yeah so um i don't know what else can we we ah say about this [noise] we hit everything i wanted yeah uh i think in some way we hit most things i was going to talk about um you know to think about what kind of um something about if there's any sort of um disposition towards because of that language like the thought of him as the elite class or if the thought of as the more brutus class or i mean there are lots of different implications that we even not necessarily saying <unk> forthright but a lot of things kind of metal linguistic things that you can work in with using different um different languages casts um <unk> [noise] um [laughter] <unk> this morning um yeah but yeah so you do a lot of different things in that respect um echoing what william set about old high anything before and also uh talking about ah something that i see describing a languages guttural is basically meaningless yep [laughter] people describe all sorts of languages guttural and it's usually just an indication that that person does not like that language [noise] for whatever reason yeah so you know that that's something you know you you hear the <unk> the <unk> or whatever the the girl language of whatever uh whatever group and do you guys share that car alarm yes uh dear the very <unk> carla [laughter] but uh and it's like you hear that and you might think sort of <unk> or something but no it's just like whatever that person doesn't like i've heard cantonese described as guttural it makes no sense at all [laughter] so that when you're describing saying the these languages i guess it depends on whether characters describing it or whether it's in moderation and what what type of narration you use which is much more of a a writing topic than than this but uh i don't understand why that stupid cars [laughter] you know [laughter] how you describe it you know will will affect readers sort of perceptions of that language enough how other characters are perceiving language so um that's about all really i have to say which may end up being a rather short episode because it was not really a huge topic cover and it's really something that not everybody works i mean and you can work with it like you said fiction or if you work in sort of any sort of role playing um but it is kind of a niche that a nice thing i would say people using <unk> role playing games probably have to take a totally different tactic and it'll depend on your gaming group because i would say most gaming groups your players are not going to want to learn another language that's where <unk> the <unk> the <unk> the leader of the game might want to make that language for a name language like you said or something to add flavor to it less so uh yeah clearly <unk> organize it quick campaign for um language creation congress has uh oh [laughter] excellent i've i've always thought about trying to uh workout a story that would involve language in a very significant <unk> probably not necessarily making people learn languages but so many d. and d. campaigns it's just you know whoever you need to talk to speech common yeah uh just so that all the characters can ah <unk> ah talk but i thought um i always think about you know she had a <unk> a role playing campaign with like diplomats or something uh that you know they have to use cultural knowledge and and language skills to solve problems um but i've never really fully worked out any kind of story storyline <unk> if i could work for that but you know it's interesting because most of the role playing games that are out there i think have some mechanic for determining what language is your character speak yeah and some of these very simple i think with the andy you're starting languages are just determined by your intelligence score and it you just you speak it or you don't <unk> spectrum anything about how yeah and uh then there's others like ah shadow run you have like four levels in a language but i don't think it differentiate [noise] you know speaking versus reading or anything like that you know mhm oh yeah <unk> there is a skill of linguistics but that's not really the language area that little <unk> really yeah um <unk> well in certain <unk> um <unk> might be but um i know that if you you don't have a high linguistics is you have <unk> any language but <unk> <unk> i'm sure that you could have like a knowledge skill this linguistics but that that's getting into a specific system of a role playing game that's a small part of this topic but i i really would um i've i've thought about how to make good language mechanics that are reasonably representative of real world language skills without being too onerous yeah to deal with that's always the problem finding the balance both in writing and and if you're going to use this in these games unless you have unless you're renting a game with all coming as most people don't want to bother probably yeah yeah it's it's just uh they're much more interested in shooting magic missiles into the dark [laughter] yes [noise] but um i think really it's more it it always depends on the medium and and it's i i find it very appropriate that like the t._v. and movies or going towards wanting to create actual languages 'cause i think that's the point where it it really matters in the most because it's sort of uh in in t._v. and movies you have an idea of it's only true if the uh person watching can can perceive it so there is [noise] it it it i think it's more important for them to actually create con lines and have dialogue in the <unk> yeah i agree in order yeah the the producers of the game <unk> even mentioned is right you know they just said in the books you can just say and they were speaking just rocky but that doesn't work quite as well on t._v. mhm right right you have to you have to be able to show to the audience that they're speaking goes rocky you can't tell them in any other way so they had to make do with rocky in some one way or another so um it's you know but you know there's there's always but in any of these cases there's balance like i think one reason like video games often have just like <unk> or or um <unk> is they just want they want the language to be uh something that players can easily the code for the participatory value that so they don't really want to make a fool language which shouldn't be a valid reason to for doing that but and they probably don't need i mean like they <unk> if i'm going to have people speaking about you know uh they're not gonna be asking all sorts of questions and they only be having a very very narrow dialogue i mean just talking about if you're not interested in having a fully functioning you know balding language like a real one then it's just as well for them to sometimes just <unk> <unk> the system i was depressed so to speak yeah and then there's also the the things like in world war craft you have this <unk> perceived leap generated <unk> that only serves to prevent factions from talking to each other [laughter] i think they figured that out they figure it out and sometimes what what you called what and then you could type <unk> <unk> the <unk> over it would say a message really um i'm <unk> so i don't know 'cause i i had heard that they actually use some sort of incorrect on that to prevent that i don't know they might have uh after a while but it was fun 'cause you could uh it would show up so if you had something in the language you didn't speak it would say like you know whatever it was important in print season then i'd say the the language um after it so it would say like spanish and print season then i'll say <unk> you know the missed out on you know but i would have fun with it i put things like elvis and that type one lord of the rings need like whoa how to do that [laughter] that's it [noise] but yeah um <unk> another thing along to mention is that another way you could sort of integrate language in there isn't the codes switching and you knew you know certain characters use <unk> themselves they're maybe when they're speaking and the <unk> they might have a word or two <unk> cost us like maybe it's because my you'll have different levels of mixed feeling that oh that's that's that's an interesting sort of character thing that you can do in yeah in the um [noise] it may be that may be a little bit more difficult to do without making language but i <unk> i've seen ways that you can do it i read one of the foreigner books and that there was a lot of language switching in one scene but um definitely you know one of my favorite scenes in game surrounds i've mentioned this before uh when david was on was this scene where you have <unk> talking and bigger code searching on [noise] and that's really that all that's a very common thing to happen when you have two people who are who speak different languages but they know each other's languages um this <unk> this is something that happens with me uh uh with my chinese friends we spend most of the time actually speaking english but uh the conversation can move into chinese and back again and they may not know word or something like that have to ask me for it or something like that um that's going to be really hard to pull off in written fiction i think yeah it probably will be um especially dealing with single words you might just have to actually in certain a word in there and then find ways to to translate it for the reader <unk> the one of the ford or books that i read i forget which one it was but it was a conversation where um she was she was actually actively translating between like <unk> and ah maybe the uh the ship language and the the settlers language mhm and it was <unk> you just had in the tag lines in whatever and and there were sort of rascal representation of switching languages but it's it it i could see it being very difficult to write properly yeah anyway um [noise] we can wrap up this topic [laughter] yeah i think a lot of angles [noise] yeah it's uh it's it's an interesting topic it's not it's not directly um the <unk> thing it's more of a fiction thing in a condo building thing and we didn't really get the there's surely a whole lot of things with this topic about like writing histories and such that we didn't really get into but i think i think this <unk> this episode should provoke some people's thoughts um so uh i have an email for our feedback sent to uh <unk> dot com uh from u._c. and uh he says uh soup and he had actually has a footnote that's ah hello until awesome and he says so i've just got done with the tone <unk> number eighty one and at the end someone mentioned <unk> uh which put me in mind one i had found many moons ago called from l._a. which obviously is french plus english anyway i felt it might hurt look see kind of an old site sued the creator might be a bit elusive so this is him just sort of suggesting this languages to us the future we may look at it and ski about it i'm trying to think about what <unk> they would be was like but norman stayed in in ah i'm not sure that has the <unk> yeah four but i'd i'm not sure it in the back story it's just fun and there's some things about it that seem very weird that i cannot imagine coming out of normal logo process or an <unk> process um so i see someone just thought it would be amusing for <unk> english to have a little child [laughter] and then there which is kind of weird in say she was an english is already so heavily yeah it's mindless they're highly some french influence already i'm kind of curious about how that [noise] so we'll look at this um maybe it'll be a future future maybe not we'll we'll see but uh we have some other um and he also gave us some other links uh this is all friendly lifestyle but uh yeah and uh so thank you for that situation and uh with that i'm just doing no no no you're you're missing the last paragraph which is most important oh what is it a footnote <unk> equals hello until austin honesty yeah i'm reading letter um i'm a citizen of the kingdom and a member of the <unk> the language committee i've actually been on the show before they're not in person and that was the person who translated read um the tell tale heart on to austin dot com yeah along the see the translations so that was cool yeah that's but yes thank you for that [noise] ah so ah that's interesting to know if they tell her i better episode of that <unk> yeah and it's and know that you know you have people in the in in philosophy are ah interested enough in in other <unk> food to keep listening hungary yeah ah so anyway [noise] kid females come to <unk> dot com and uh we have not been getting as many emails but we're getting a few more recently [noise] i'm just want to go on to william what are your final word i have no reason to speak [noise] mike the you have anything [noise] um basically just you know the fourth <unk> bottle [laughter] all right i will say happy [laughter] thank you for listening to con liners you could find our our cars <unk> dot com you can send questions comments or topic more features language suggestions coupon lying or e. i. g. mailbox ha [noise] to submit icon langhorn hotline greedy for the top of the show see our contribute paid for detail [noise] web space <unk> provide it by the language creation society and our team music is by no device [noise]

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Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 85 Multilingual Conworlds (last edited 2017-09-09 01:04:46 by TranscriBot)