Conlangery #96: Where did my Nominative go?

Conlangery #96: Where did my Nominative go?

Published: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:27:40 +0000 \

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Transcript

utterance-id1 [noise] <unk> ah like we create that aren't really almost [noise] ah down the road away and my <unk> not here at the moment we're not sure exactly why it's just the <unk> yeah and uh there may be i'm not sure how the audio is going out because i've been forced to go back to beep old crappy way recording which uh involves me listening to myself oh my own headphones and which can be very confusing yeah um i i i <unk> i try to get this way um i make her william a little bit because i will be listening to myself oh as well as [noise] but uh it should work out and i'm not sure that sometimes the the recording comes on but weird when i do this but ah hopefully i won't be able to figure out something right so i'm just a couple of little things which is our first according to the new year yeah and uh so so i figured song [laughter] no yeah that that's why the answer and it also <unk> we're we're changing uh some things but the show i think we're going to be <unk> at least for a little while because i'm in graduate school and that's all you really need to know yeah um there's also a a small one ounce smith since that can be monthly now and so i need i ah making the mouse <unk> january twenty six [noise] ah it the twenty <unk> oh see us members meeting uh eleven a._m. yes ski and you can uh what is that correct <unk> um [noise] that's two hour difference is is it a county yeah ah one p._m. [laughter] yeah but people can find find it and uh if you're an l._d._s. member um most of you will know it it you take you a <unk> and all that stuff on the on the uh maybe i'll think screw the link to the uh oh yes um little chat <unk> so <unk> all that put aside i'm sure william had a good holiday i had a good holiday right i did i did yes you went to california didn't ah right before the holiday madness yes i did oh yeah mm that was that's great but [laughter] what we're to talk about we're here to talk about language in linguistics and calmly and william you were the one who propose this topic this is something that we've touched on the war when we talked about <unk> and um sort of uh semitic roll i think um <unk> <unk> <unk> was brought up with the <unk> short is uh where did my numbness go so basically we're going to talk about a lot of cases where [noise] sort of the the subject is not in <unk> and then we're not talking about <unk> we're talking about data of subjects and all sorts of other things right right and this can happen in or getting languages too so it could just as easily be where in my early to go [noise] um you know it really means [noise] where did my critical subject go right handy english most of our [noise] many many many things are verbs that are <unk> having the subject as [noise] the nominees just right at least know complete um but that is by no means the only way way too range things so that's what we're gonna be talking about today mm [noise] so ah you suggest that first of all that we started out just going over semantic rolls [noise] right so how many maybe using some discussion ready to be talking about agents and patience and this matters a lot because um the whole point is that what we consider the subject which for many of us especially uh numbers kind of lingers subject equals <unk> um or possibly any subject equals oregon too sometimes [noise] um if you've gone now and we want to avoid using that language in the whole point is what we're talking about these things that we are pretty sure are in fact subjects but are now in the northern <unk> [noise] um or whatever answers for the notification in in your language [noise] so we're going to be a little [noise] i would try to be careful about this but sometimes you been uh <unk> right right [noise] i mean [noise] a good example is the english passive i see the dog i the subject is the agent as well but the dog is seen my knee i it's still the agents it's the thing doing the action but it has been demoted from the subject row because it's <unk> raised the object [noise] um important yeah that um [noise] to just to refuse the term in case we have you know <unk> newsletters on basically what you had or people not super familiar with linguistics um the agent and patient these are um semantic rules that they pure in sort of <unk> you're right the agents you you could call it the do or the the the person who takes an action and the patient is the thing that acted upon [noise] right right and it's really important to understand that there are um degrees of asian food into degrees of patience would if i say i broke the chopsticks or less avoid using let's say the men broke the <unk> the man is high high high <unk> he's doing a very clearly sort of doing action and the topic is very high impatient with it is affected and changed by the experience is undergo [noise] whereas the man sees the chopsticks he's still high end agency but the patient as <unk> not changed in any way <unk> [noise] um unless you subscribe to a certain wacky theories of oakland mechanics [noise] um and <unk> of course that the <unk> yeah we want to talk about business on the internet [laughter] [laughter] so you get a degree that agency and degrees of <unk> and you know i tripped or demand trips demand it's still the subject of the sentence but his age and who it is quite low because this was an involuntary or accidental action right and this this matters this agent who'd versus patients in manners because um the <unk> gonna be talking about tends to break along degrees of agents rude or degrees of patient [laughter] yeah and and as you mention you know the man tripped that sort of i explained agent patient mainly in terms of in a in a <unk> but the <unk> the the the sort of leads into <unk> and things like the man trip you could um you have a <unk> a person on a huge do right verbs uh which is now i'm going to be explaining this and i want to get them backwards i know i always get on a <unk> we looked him up on the internet i believe on or you do the subject is um <unk> is in egypt or age it like so you know iran or demand rain we're versus on accused do it the subject as patient like <unk> which is like the window broke something like that something that didn't actually take any action on so or the <unk> but if i got that wrong correctly and the congress anywhere he's able in english run talking resigned or <unk> or <unk> or die or under keeps it right yeah so anyway with all that explains <unk> those are just some things that might be useful to to keep in mind right because we're going to be talking about all of these crazy things data's subjects and gender subjects and all sorts of other things [noise] but the point is is this is not random these follow patterns typically um they have to do with this <unk> uh agent <unk> [noise] all right um so the let's let's do this and i and uh we wrote up the notes here i have um the first thing you have is involving something called <unk> subject [noise] right this is uh one of the standard germans for these things um because it's not only did therefore it's weird quirky um lots of books have been written on this subject [noise] people who are not ah <unk> don't like the top don't make a name quirky subject assumes that not having any subjects as normal and everything else is weird [noise] which is probably not the case [noise] the whole point of this and it's funny subject <unk> is that the number two they're not always have to be these subject mhm the subject can be in other cases [noise] and ah janitors in particular or get tied into not coming up with [noise] explaining this to [noise] um [noise] so english doesn't really do much of this we tend to just do straight up s._t._o. and the as the subject and it's on all sorts of myrtle experiences [noise] <unk> in the old fashioned english or rather arcade games we have me thinks uh-huh and that is an example of a <unk> subject um me thinks you know et cetera the point is think had been beaten down and turned into an <unk> subject we're uh whereas in the past it used to be a date of cedric her and then of course english left [laughter] [laughter] and then we had sort of in a bleak subject for a while and then it went away um the question is can be really cold ease things subject you <unk> i mean most of us are you know use to tie agreement patterns the subject you to the subject isn't enough to do but there are various kinds of syntax test you can do they let you know in the phrase like me thinks to me is actually truly the subject <unk> for example like if i went into the bar and got kicked my horse i can drop the subjects high in the second call i worked in the barn and i was kicked by horse [noise] we don't have to say i'm a second one because english wants his drop the subject that's called conjunction reduction [noise] so in languages icelandic they were going to talk about it they had lots and lots of kinds of data subject conjunction reduction works in such a way that the date of subject couldn't be dropped and we know that it's really the subject because in the next cause it will be the same as what was in a day to the previous one all right yeah um there's some weird in korea has claimed this marketing to let us know that they're non nominate two subjects are in fact subject [noise] um and russian has an interesting test having due to flex the possessiveness then i don't understand but is another [noise] that these things are really and truly subjects in cases other than the <unk> which uh this is all sort of helpful when you're looking at you know natural language examples obviously we're working more in um <unk> this this project is more about creating your own language and you don't necessarily have to prove things you just keep state that it's the subject but that the usual <unk> no that these things [noise] [noise] right yeah right if you're creating non number two subjects you need to think about what how does and work right you can you can you you can sort of build these sort of groups into the language <unk> understand how they work right but when you come up with examples into you know he is a nave he thinks and blah blah blah <unk> what's the subject with me mhm [noise] [noise] um if you do um google searches on quirky subjects or no knowledge of subjects be all time number one favorite example language is icelandic [noise] and the reason they played it has lots and lots of dave subject verbs any particular um their data experience or <unk> perception verbs of um [noise] uh [noise] what am i translate commission like knee thanks um are very likely to have these <unk> days of subjects so i just moved up some examples here my example uh paper that had all of these um is no no longer on the web since ever open up so that is really frustrating yes [noise] things disappear sometime on line all right so for example to find something boring and icelandic is her board the boy uh-huh not uh you know i didn't find the boring or um i was cold and i find it is to me it's cold mm okay um and there are lots and lots of neither i guess i do do you do some <unk> you'll find lots of <unk> but i play that is not the only one russian has lots of the <unk> [noise] um [noise] the data <unk> all sorts of things [noise] um and i mean we can sit here reading the examples but that would be very boring for you when you can go look up yourself yeah of course and and i don't have to get you know angry email about how badly i watched um icelandic [noise] [laughter] i think you should be <unk> <unk> i say or or a russian from that manner um so the point is certain kinds of verbs are more likely to be stressed this way um and verbs of experience um [noise] [noise] murders of obligation or sometimes this way but those sometimes alter how accused of subjects um one of the many examples in this paper in puerto rico [noise] right i must moderate oh this is actually a latin i must moderate my speech mhm that uses the special <unk> an addictive [noise] is acting is this subject [noise] um that's interesting so drunkenness apparently is another thing that takes the date of experience or that need to know oh i'm uh that's a lot a lot of how like uh changes or state or uh sort of standards [noise] yeah i think that's right a state of things that we think of a state of and this is again awareness of english and some european languages that state of concepts are frequently um imagined as nerves [noise] um and most people who speak english native as me and her first learning about state of arms probably find them very confusing i know i did for a while [noise] um [noise] one thing that interesting for example the language will period which we all love to talk about it from australia um all stadiums are now [noise] oh okay so that's to say and and things that most english speakers or think of is very <unk> like want no <unk> these are all expressed with no arms and data subjects [noise] so the idea i want a water is um <unk> i'm sorry not date of subjects um [noise] actually take detours all checks [laughter] you know it's either object but at the point is that your normal expected case arrangement is not <unk> yeah <unk> in this case it seems like it's just taking a subject [noise] no i don't know i don't know what the <unk> <unk> <unk> um and like you don't know the language is you know language data ignorant again it's a noun um if you need tend to have to do all sorts of fun things [noise] um and again the point of that is normally <unk> but in some kinds of <unk> expressions nope so even though we've called this where did mine dominant to go the whole point is that um procedure of english especially um and probably several european languages respect subjects to always be one thing <unk> another thing um but there are many many possibility yeah subjects and direct <unk> yes it was right yeah yeah right you know you're you're direct object and the other um i don't know language that's sort of be like taking into a different role but right right um yeah so we have a few other [noise] um but the interesting thing to me is sort of go over again <unk> the situations where you might have a <unk> so we mentions <unk> yeah like see or um verbs that whole um nothing that changes the object <unk> hey hey you know think or see or hear or um things that are golden perception or <unk> <unk> right abilities uh want that seems like it's sort of prides into the idea of levels of <unk> because technically like if i see something i'm not even um you know yeah i see something i'm not even acting <unk> currently i'm bryce like right i'm i'm here something goes in primary but em it seems like and i don't know if there's languages that do this you could end up happening <unk> barrier where like c. versus walk [noise] pick different subject right absolutely absolutely [noise] you might use the same group for both but just use different case arrangements decide what the meaning it right <unk> yeah that's exactly that that sounds like an interesting sort of route that more um i don't know if you could uh [noise] that into <unk> you could have two different kinds of things but uh that's a little bit more abstract right they're trying to think what's i'm look i'm looking at some examples of uh a language spoken a some so i went to new european languages [noise] india so like [noise] um so to say i like flowers you actually say um to me flowers feel good [laughter] um want is manage this way i want a lot of money is timmy lot money want [noise] um uh these this sound a lot like um what you get in romance languages went right um uh versus like stop and exactly where you have to me um i get you started people often literate translators me right for me to me <unk> i'm sure yeah so this language um has just to let you were talking about george i heard is a day to experience it to me here in the north philly river whereas i <unk> i listened uses the dominant at structure so the nominated easiest for higher agency right okay so that makes sense yeah that that <unk> [noise] i forget the language davis the paper i'm only a <unk> okay okay so that's um so that's usual her material habits i all i often like sort of ways where like you can uh change uh what what like what we're used to thinking of an english or the electrical sanction right here and listen and turn it into some sort of <unk> <unk> <unk> yeah absolutely um or go the other way around but yeah um sit hollow is another language that does this another language in india and they're all sorts of fun 'cause it's an urban <unk> absolutely language there's all sorts of fun and instrumental get used an interesting way ensure met yet how does it yeah instrumental datas or non intentional actress accused of jobs are not intentional undergo worse and instrumental are intentional but run count into people's expectations oh [laughter] interesting [laughter] so <unk> so they're example is mother happens to mix and holler food well because that's for whatever reason somehow counter expected um that takes an instrumental subject [laughter] oh okay so it makes sense to me there maybe habits like <unk> <unk> instrumental be like what level low number to her you know whatever you know you have because um ensure mental you can think of as like sort of a mid link level of uh egypt <unk> agency because it's like the you know the the sort of the the ideal idea instrumental is of course uh an instrument is something that someone else's using do it so you could think of it as like your extending that idea of something that's being used do something sure into like something that has some agency but not all but for you could just hey chalk it up to like okay the mark situation we're going to give it a marked taste marking sure instrumental skit used for funny things um [noise] sometimes it happens it was to the janitors sometimes it happens to the instrumental if i recall correctly and then both of those case markings can evolve into urban of subjects <unk> marking [noise] um yeah weird things happened instrumental [noise] um what's the point is that different kinds of subtlety lexical subtlety that we use or eastern english can be um management case which rooms mhm um let's see here uh often in these languages you will have split swear this same idea can be expressed within a known do construction <unk> construction with as we've seen varies over tons of meeting like attention i <unk> i heard versus alright listen [noise] um [noise] russian apparently in codes empathy okay i have a link to paper here that talks about being in tennessee that happens when you take these different kinds of subjects [noise] um and then use <unk> oh so um when you have no knowledge of subjects they sometimes they interact with things and fun exciting and hair racing way yeah [noise] so [noise] uh a handout handout for talking to someone gave yeah looks like they just use that oh yeah mm so they had lots of nice examples laid out for you to look at what you can sort of browsed through that so i don't think we need to like read through everything yeah yeah oh yeah [noise] um there's no way there's that i've already talked about <unk> [noise] um we're in this thing [noise] sorry i don't normally i mean that's better organized in this yeah um one thing you put in into your nose um but who now is huge and the thing yeah yes although <unk> takes this idea and runs to the foreigners limits yeah well that's that's right it's a <unk> an example of a hotline where somebody decided to take all this stuff about data subjects and so you know oh let's just go nuts with this ah yes do not understand the subject all kinds of different crazy so quick i think you can have [noise] look at too or are you do [noise] um <unk> which is <unk> is sort of like a um an absolute of sort of thing he had <unk> well well we've we've talked about the <unk> yeah uh [noise] what's it ah <unk> yes he did an excellent job that and and has a beautiful grammar so we don't really um go into that you can't but that ah one except for <unk> for example that you could use is uh uh as inspiration yes [noise] um we won someone older paper from nineteen ninety nine which just goes down an entire um analysis of the whole dating subjects um history um just with lots and lots of interesting examples of all of these things going on it's really it's really interesting read and he can give you all sorts of fun idea and um lots of fun examples from japanese where you have topics interacting date isn't fun ways [noise] um and it has examples from languages all over the place not just in the european <unk> [noise] yeah of course you you want to try to chew uh only get into other languages <unk> sort of the the main sort of things that have to be like if you're going to have this sort of you know that you're going to have uh [noise] these sort of uh uh due to subjects are different different um non non <unk> subject it means pretty ripa cases um or at least obviously you need to be marking ah you know data and your court cases yeah yeah that's true uh somehow somehow they don't i mean it can be particles or <unk> or um repetitions across was theirs or whatever but yeah you need something like that with all this uh this is a charming example from the language column in large boil has formed in his armpit so that's a nice accused of experience or now [noise] i <unk> yeah that's <unk> every one so these <unk> we talk about we talked about starting with native experience there's [noise] high man which are currently hardly uh apparently common but yes crossed linguistically but we have all sorts of things we just talked about uh the it's mental we have an excuse that one so some languages some languages um construction various ways of marking possession with degenerative which kind of makes sense but it's not like it's his dog but i have a dog might involve agenda too as well that makes some sense yeah no that's not [noise] obviously <unk> [noise] um and it's easy to see something like that might to know so yeah [noise] um [noise] one thing that while i was looking for this so then i found it was really interesting um happens in some of the ban two languages [noise] so this is really fun it's not exactly the same as losing your <unk> it's just another thing where the expected relationship between the subject and the government has changed so in need languages if you have a location in the phrase [noise] so um [noise] we've talked about bad two languages a little bit i don't think we've ever future uh fully <unk> language um in the show but they have lots of non classes kind of like well they're basically genders just more than the usual two or three weeks right um and there it must have these languages they have a separate gender for locations uh-huh uh-huh yeah that's uh i guess when you can do in expressions that involve location is you can make that location this subject didn't move to the front of the sentence [noise] the verb agrees with it [noise] uh-huh and the subject is moved to the end of the clause where it is focus [noise] okay [noise] so you can have a simple sentence the guests entered the house is just people enter with me <unk> enter agreeing with people [noise] or you can say people entered the house which has the house at the subject first in the sentence than the verb agreeing with the house and then the people at the end um [noise] the point here the confusion thing the confusing thing rather is <unk> is agreeing with the location not the actual subject right so in a way it's really just like the location it's not it's it's sort of half way like oh boy [laughter] not like like not quite like passive voice things but not quite like uh like like right <unk> <unk> they promote <unk> okay the boy is we should do things around to promote and <unk> the importance of things in the claws rice just in this particular example do thing devoted location yeah the thing promoted or they promoted rather no the thing being promoted is actually <unk> did he end of the sentence oh oh the same is degree is actually the thing that is devoted oh okay and this could only be used um in some of these <unk> these should only be used with <unk> or passive second er passive adam <unk> oh okay so you're normal trends number will will not permit to sort of hanky panky but things like you know stand <unk> wondered that sort of stuff can take it i mean i linked to the paper they get lots of examples and the use of this and the meaning of this difference from bad to language dimension language um none of them allow active trend of diverge to do that um uh [noise] but they have a nice explaining which languages <unk> but it it another interesting thing where where do you think is the subject we expect that subject to be the thing that agrees but he said no [laughter] yeah uh location yes <unk> yeah that's that's one that uh <unk> well my <unk> like <unk> like oh we're agrees with this certain impact so we're [noise] but then again you have <unk> backwards and all that but sorry i'm i'm being indoctrinated into the sort of jared overcrowded so right hold up these effort you get for going to graduate school after you w madison all the i i know all the the the sort of tricks that that uh are are <unk> that sort of uh uh i'm more into <unk> less uh seems less arbitrary but uh [noise] so some day your head's going to explode studying up to mount an easier you know uh <unk> out of your professors here does not like <unk> <unk> okay oh and i i think a lot i think some of the other people in like the departments here are also not hurt on <unk> very so [noise] okay <unk> tablets for you yeah well i still have to know it [noise] oh right you know i have to [noise] see i see papers on it when i'm doing research [noise] i i see papers that use <unk> you know when i'm doing research so i know how it works [noise] ah it's useful some things that um yesterday it <unk> it it's not very useful [laughter] to use it on the show yeah no no <unk> that's fine [laughter] [noise] so this is not a super heavy subject mostly because there's no need for us to sit down and read all of these samples i just want to talk about the big picture [noise] so [noise] really um we're looking at these things stink about issues of how high is the agency how high is the <unk> oh man that's usually where you can find these splits happening um i have links lots of papers and lots of examples of all sorts of interesting when ten minutes that you can call on mhm [noise] um and i just type on depend too when i wasn't sure quite the same and the subject of the episodes but it was so interesting and i didn't think of any place else to put [noise] samantha george of anything else and [noise] have [noise] [noise] ah so finally we may have [noise] managed to report [noise] we are actually reporting on january [noise] that tells you how [noise] we are [noise] but we are [noise] pardon me [noise] so [noise] so [noise] for another one in february sometime early february [noise] uh d._c. and happy columbine [noise] thank you for listening to <unk> you can find our our cars insurance outside con library dot com you can send questions comments more topic featured language suggestions online agree i'd see male dot com [noise] to submit icon langhorn that line greedy for the top of the show see our contribute paid for detail [noise] <unk> language creation society and our team music is by no device [noise] three two one welcome to <unk> hello [laughter] [laughter] how can we weren't always today yes do not leave the house tomorrow [laughter]

Tags

  1. Conlangery Podcast
  2. Podcast
  3. case
  4. conlang
  5. language
  6. linguistics
  7. nominative
  8. subject

Conlangery Podcast/Conlangery 96 Where did my Nominative go? (last edited 2017-09-09 10:42:56 by TranscriBot)